You make the call

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Great Leviathian,

 

I thought the same thing until I checked out the ROI manual and saw the 'failure to ATTEMPT to fire' was included in the 'P' penalties.

 

Anyhow, I vote for you to be my TO.

 

Hope to see you at GOA in about 6 weeks.

 

 

..........Widder

[Nate Clayton, SASS #63196]

How long did it take to realize the second pistol was un-fired? 25 seconds is a long time...coulda maybe shot the last pistol out of order, assuming all hits, shaved a little time with a P only.

 

Long as it was safe and all.

 

-Nate

 

I wouldn't feel bad as RO, nor would I hand off any timer (unless I was ordered such). It is quite possible... a shooter could be fast enough to get the first shotgun round fired before the RO could safely re-direct. Say it was a single firing position, for example.

 

Mr. Widder, most everything is over analyzed on the wire I believe the example intended to say down on empty chamber, not down on spent case.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Big Jake:

 

I have OVER analyzed your post and here is what I think. And because we are talking about pistols, I assumed your post is about pistols.

 

ANYHOW:

IF the shooter shows up at the UNloadding table with 5 rounds (live) still in a gun, with hammer down on an empty, that would mean that the shooter had 6 cartridges in that pistol and would get 5 misses for unfired rounds, a MSV for not following loading table procedures on the current stage AND, if the shooter had shot a previous stage that day, they would get a SDQ from the previous stage for not following unloading table guidelines/rules by insuring all empties had been removed.

 

 

How did I do?

 

I know, I'm thinkin tooooooo much.

 

..........Widder

 

Widder, it is my understanding that the pistol never left leather, so how do you figure it had six in it? Perhaps I'm missing something, but the hammer would have been down on an empty chamber...just like it was when it left the loading table.

 

Buck...who is expecting a rabbit to come out of the hat at any moment.

[Stump Water]

Great Leviathian,

 

I thought the same thing until I checked out the ROI manual and saw the 'failure to ATTEMPT to fire' was included in the 'P' penalties.

 

 

Or how 'bout:

 

• Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by

the stage description.

 

As said, it makes no difference where the pistol was when the shotgun was shot out of order.

[Manatee]

Sometimes it's just better to back away from the keyboard......

[BJT]

I wouldn't assess the P. The guns were fired in the correct order. Only if the shooter returned to fire the revolver would I assess the P. 5 misses only.

 

If the shooter forgot the last pistol on the loading bench, I doubt anyone would give the P. It should make no difference that it's in his holster.

 

 

The guns were not fired in the correct order. The stage order was P-R-P-S. The order fired was P-R-S, when the shotgun followed the rifle without the pistol in between the shooter was "Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by the stage description."

 

And even if you did not buy that, the shooter had a "Failure to attempt to fire a firearm."

 

For reference, here are the ROI definitions for procedurals.

 

Procedural Penalties

Any unintentional procedural errors caused by brain fade, confusion, ignorance, or mistakes

(not to exceed one for any given stage).

Failure to attempt to fire a firearm.

Failure to attempt a prop or stage maneuver.

Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description.

Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by

the stage description.

Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing.

Firing any firearm from a position or location other than as required by the stage

description.

Use of "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e. NOT carried to the line/staged by the

shooter in an approved manner)

 

Regards,

BJT

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Now for an interesting follow on.

 

If the shooter shot 4 out of the pistol and holstered with one in the gun (but not under the hammer) the rules say one miss, no P.

 

So what if the shooter shot 1 and holstered? I would say 4 misses and no P.

 

But if the pistol is not shot, it now adds another miss and a P....?

 

I think we have a problem here as it is making things too complicated to interpret the rules.

 

I sure long for the old days when a P was a P and a miss was a miss - back before 2001...

[BJT]

Are you saying gun order should not be grounds for a P?

 

I guess my only quibble with the rules, is that the "failure to attempt" should be removed.

 

If you blow the gun order, that should be a P as blowing the target order is.

 

If you fail to shoot the last gun, that should be misses only and not a P as failing to fire at the last target in a sequence is a miss and not a P.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

Now for an interesting follow on.

 

If the shooter shot 4 out of the pistol and holstered with one in the gun (but not under the hammer) the rules say one miss, no P.

 

So what if the shooter shot 1 and holstered? I would say 4 misses and no P.

 

But if the pistol is not shot, it now adds another miss and a P....?

 

I think we have a problem here as it is making things too complicated to interpret the rules.

 

I sure long for the old days when a P was a P and a miss was a miss - back before 2001...

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Now for an interesting follow on.

 

If the shooter shot 4 out of the pistol and holstered with one in the gun (but not under the hammer) the rules say one miss, no P.

 

So what if the shooter shot 1 and holstered? I would say 4 misses and no P.

 

But if the pistol is not shot, it now adds another miss and a P....?

 

I think we have a problem here as it is making things too complicated to interpret the rules.

 

I sure long for the old days when a P was a P and a miss was a miss - back before 2001...

 

First, following the Miss Flow Chart for the OP situation, when the shooter has completed shooting the rifle:

(Now the shooter should have shot the second pistol)

Did shooter hit all the correct type targets - No, in fact he hit no targets with the second revolver.

So, assess misses => 5 misses.

Were targets hit in correct order - No (no targets were hit, so it could not have been the right order within the remaining revolver targets).

Were targets placed to give shooter a chance for clean miss - Yes (I assumed this, as the OP does not say)

Thus, the chart says we Assess Procedural. => P

 

For original posted scenario - 5 misses and a P

 

 

Ok, now let's do Marauder's "shot 4 and holstered" scenario:

Did shooter hit all the correct type targets - No, missed one (by not firing at it)

Assess misses => 1 miss

Were targets hit in correct order - Yes (assuming shooter had hit the first 4 in correct order)

No further call

 

So, for that one, the Miss Flow Chart says - 1 miss, no P

 

Yep, failing to shoot the second pistol at all is considered by both the written rules and the miss flow chart to be a MUCH worse problem than firing the pistol in the right sequence, but not firing all the required shots. I don't see that as being very hard to understand.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Griff]

If you fail to shoot the last gun, that should be misses only and not a P as failing to fire at the last target in a sequence is a miss and not a P.

Very Best Regards,

BJT

Nay, Sir, for as noted in your prior post:

Procedural Penalties

Any unintentional procedural errors caused by "brain fade," confusion, ignorance, or mistakes

(not to exceed one for any given stage).

• Failure to attempt to fire a firearm.

• Failure to attempt a prop or stage maneuver.

• Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description.

• Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by

the stage description.

• Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing.

• Firing any firearm from a position or location other than as required by the stage

description.

• Use of "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e. NOT carried to the line/staged by the

shooter in an approved manner)

Regards,

BJT

So it would still b misses and a "P"; I see no caveat that sez "...unless it's the last gun." If the failure to attempt is removed, then we should just go back to one sixgun. Or just go to the line and after the beep, we just clap real loud and announce we're done.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I am not a hard a$$ but some of these posts/threads looking for any concievable way not to give somebody a penalty boggle the mind,its like the sports for kids where theres no scoring so thers no losers.

 

 

AO

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Sorry, but I'm merely trying to improve consistency in such calls.

 

Many rely heavily on the flow chart. So to quote it.

 

Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?

Obviously no - so:

Assess misses

Were the targets hit in the correct order except for misses?

Would not the answer to this be yes?? If it is yes, the flow chart then says:

No further call

 

Now, we know that even before you use the flow chart, that any unfired round is a five second penalty. So folks are evidently saying the definition of a Procedure would apply here before you go to the flow chart.

 

Is that correct?

 

If so, when do we tell folks to use the flow chart and when....?

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

How about failure to attempt firearm or shooting guns out of order,as soon as shotgun was fired he earned P,maybe last pistol could of been shot to avoid misses.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Yup, the shooter could have "avoided" the misses (and got a P) if they had finished up with the pistol.

[BJT]

Nay, Sir, for as noted in your prior post:

 

You mistake a quibble with the rule for a quibble with the ruling. It was a P seven ways from Sunday. I just think the failure to attempt rule is inconsistent.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

So it would still b misses and a "P"; I see no caveat that sez "...unless it's the last gun." If the failure to attempt is removed, then we should just go back to one sixgun. Or just go to the line and after the beep, we just clap real loud and announce we're done.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Sorry, but I'm merely trying to improve consistency in such calls.

 

Many rely heavily on the flow chart.

 

So folks are evidently saying the definition of a Procedure would apply here before you go to the flow chart.

 

 

Marauder -

You raise a problem that we have known about for at least 5 years. The Miss Flow Chart is not very useful at helping determine Procedural error calls. It handles one common one - engaging targets for a particular gun in the correct order for that gun. Then it ignores all the rest.

 

If we want the flow chart to help with ALL procedure calls too, there needs to be some more boxes in the flow chart, including one where the question "was the correct gun shot in the specified order?" is asked, so that a no answer to that can result in a P call. Probably before you start assessing misses. It may be time that we try to cover most (if not all) of the Procedural errors, too, for as we can see in this case, they are sometimes very interdependent.

 

Good luck, GJ

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Marauder -

You raise a problem that we have known about for at least 5 years. The Miss Flow Chart is not very useful at helping determine Procedural error calls. It handles one common one - engaging targets for a particular gun in the correct order for that gun. Then it ignores all the rest.

 

If we want the flow chart to help with ALL procedure calls too, there needs to be some more boxes in the flow chart, including one where the question "was the correct gun shot in the specified order?" is asked, so that a no answer to that can result in a P call. Probably before you start assessing misses. It may be time that we try to cover most (if not all) of the Procedural errors, too, for as we can see in this case, they are sometimes very interdependent.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

GJ,

That's why it's called the MISS flow chart...not the "P" flow chart...which sounds like some kind of medical measuring device.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Thanks for the clarification, guys!

 

Seems like this could change some commonly made calls.

 

In the past, when someone wanted to shoot only one pistol, for whatever reason, we said they could either reload the pistol on the clock or take the misses. Should a P be added if they choose not to reload?

 

Also, to clarify, if someone forgets their shotgun shells, the obviously have to take misses, should we also add a procedure in that case?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

In the past, when someone wanted to shoot only one pistol, for whatever reason, we said they could either reload the pistol on the clock or take the misses. Should a P be added if they choose not to reload?

 

Also, to clarify, if someone forgets their shotgun shells, the obviously have to take misses, should we also add a procedure in that case?

 

Sounds like "Match Director's call" for a monthly. Not having a gun to shoot some part of a stage is a lot different than having one, loading it, staging it, then forgetting to shoot it.

 

We'd just offer to let the shooter fire some of our ammo for a local match.

 

Forgetting to bring any shotshells to the line (and RO not reminding you to fix the problem), according to the rules as written, should probably incur both a P for not shooting the gun in the proper sequence in the stage, AND the misses that result from not firing the gun. Harsh, yeah, but that is the way the rules read now, IMHO.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Sounds like "Match Director's call" for a monthly. Not having a gun to shoot some part of a stage is a lot different than having one, loading it, staging it, then forgetting to shoot it.

 

We'd just offer to let the shooter fire some of our ammo for a local match.

 

Forgetting to bring any shotshells to the line (and RO not reminding you to fix the problem), according to the rules as written, should probably incur both a P for not shooting the gun in the proper sequence in the stage, AND the misses that result from not firing the gun. Harsh, yeah, but that is the way the rules read now, IMHO.

 

Good luck, GJ

"Engaging a target" is different from "firing the gun". If the shooter drew and the gun didn't fire for any reason: malfunction, forgot to load, etc. then it's obviously NOT a "p". And, as you've noted it's a lot different than forgetting to shoot it (and therefore lacking engagement).

[BJT]

If the stages says P-R-P-S and you shoot P-R-S-P then you have violated:

 

"Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by

the stage description."

 

and get a P.

 

My quandry is, if there was a 10 shot string R-1 through R-10 and you only shot R-1 through R-9, you would be liable for only a miss, no P.

 

But

 

If there is a P-R-P-S order and you shoot P-R-P and leave off the last gun, why is that a P AND misses? It seems inconsistent to say in one case, not finishing is a P and mises and in another case not finishing is misses only.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

Nay, Sir, for as noted in your prior post:

 

So it would still b misses and a "P"; I see no caveat that sez "...unless it's the last gun." If the failure to attempt is removed, then we should just go back to one sixgun. Or just go to the line and after the beep, we just clap real loud and announce we're done.

[Grizzly Dave]

BJT

 

In your first case the shooter did fire the specified gun, just not all of the required guns.

 

In the second the last gun was not fired at all.

[BJT]

BJT

 

In your first case the shooter did fire the specified gun, just not all of the required guns.

 

In the second the last gun was not fired at all.

 

 

Yes, quite true.

 

Here is the question:

 

Why do we give only misses when a shooting order is not finished BUT

we give misses and a P when a gun order is not finished?

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Grizzly Dave]

OK, real world example here

 

comin at cha, stage 8 I think it was..

 

10 rifle

then 10 pistol

ending with 4 shotgun

 

I rip off the rifle shots, missing one target (not that it matters other than it was my first miss of the match, but a P the prior day dashed any hopes of a clean match already), shoot both pistols, move to shotgun, pick it up, slam in two shells and attempt to close it. shotgun falls apart on the table, I throw up my hands and say I'm done.

 

Could I have put the shotgun back together and shot? Yes, I chose not to as I had no idea why it had fallen apart.

 

Do I get misses for all of the shotgun targets? No brainer, of course I get misses.

 

Did I attempt that gun? I'd say so.

 

Did I deserve a P? I don't think so, and as far as I know none was awarded.

 

However, if I'd just walked to the unloading table thinking I was done after shooting pistols, then proclaimed I was done when/if reminded of the shotgun, you bet I'd have earned a P.

[Grizzly Dave]

Yes, quite true.

 

Here is the question:

 

Why do we give only misses when a shooting order is not finished BUT

we give misses and a P when a gun order is not finished?

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Because forgetting a shot or target is a little brain fart, forgetting to shoot a gun is a big brain fart.

[BJT]

Because forgetting a shot or target is a little brain fart, forgetting to shoot a gun is a big brain fart.

 

 

There is only one size of P, why do we consider one a brain fart and not the other? The scaling is covered by the number of misses. Why is one considered a mistake but not the other?

 

If you shoot only R1, still no P........

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I'm reading all these and I must say.........

 

this is a great thread.

 

 

 

..........Widder

[Grizzly Dave]

OK, I'll take another run at it.

 

Per the RO I handbook, a P is awarded as follows

 

Procedural Penalties

Any unintentional procedural errors caused by “brain fade,” confusion, ignorance, or mistakes

(not to exceed one for any given stage).

• Failure to attempt to fire a firearm.

• Failure to attempt a prop or stage maneuver.

• Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description.

• Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by the stage description.

• Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing.

• Firing any firearm from a position or location other than as required by the stage

description.

• Use of "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e. NOT carried to the line/staged by the

shooter in an approved manner)

 

Your question as I understand it is in relation to the first phrase I underlined above.

 

My point is that failing to attempt to fire the last gun for a stage ALSO meets the requirements for a P to be called under the second phrase I underlines.

 

Stage calls for 10 rifle, then 10 pistol, then 4 shotgun...

 

Shooter shoots rifle, shotgun then pistols, a P is earned, we agree on that right? While all guns were used, they were not in the order specified by the stage instructions.

 

Shooter shoots rifle, pistols, and forgets the shotgun. Did the shooter follow the gun order per the stage instructions? No. A P is earned.

 

Does that make any more sense now?

 

Grizz

[BJT]

Yes, as the rules are written today, not completing the gun order is a P, yes, yes, yes.

 

My question is and remains, WHY!!!!

 

Not finishing a target order is not a P even if only 1 of 10 targets are ever engaged.

But not finishing a gun order is a P even if it means only two targets are never engaged.

 

Why?

What is the thinking?

It appears completely inconsistent.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

OK, I'll take another run at it.

 

Per the RO I handbook, a P is awarded as follows

 

Procedural Penalties

Any unintentional procedural errors caused by “brain fade,” confusion, ignorance, or mistakes

(not to exceed one for any given stage).

• Failure to attempt to fire a firearm.

• Failure to attempt a prop or stage maneuver.

• Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description.

• Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by the stage description.

• Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing.

• Firing any firearm from a position or location other than as required by the stage

description.

• Use of "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e. NOT carried to the line/staged by the

shooter in an approved manner)

 

Your question as I understand it is in relation to the first phrase I underlined above.

 

My point is that failing to attempt to fire the last gun for a stage ALSO meets the requirements for a P to be called under the second phrase I underlines.

 

Stage calls for 10 rifle, then 10 pistol, then 4 shotgun...

 

Shooter shoots rifle, shotgun then pistols, a P is earned, we agree on that right? While all guns were used, they were not in the order specified by the stage instructions.

 

Shooter shoots rifle, pistols, and forgets the shotgun. Did the shooter follow the gun order per the stage instructions? No. A P is earned.

 

Does that make any more sense now?

 

Grizz

[Grizzly Dave]

I think I might be starting to see your point..

 

Same 10 rifle, then 10 pistol, then 4+ shotgun stage...

 

So if there are 10 rifle targets, shooter only shoots 8 for whatever reason except a malfunction, lets say they jacked two rounds out. You are saying that a P should be awarded? Even under current rules, given that the targets were not engaged per instructions there is a case for a P being called. I personally don't think one should be called in this case, just saying an argument could be made along these lines.

 

• Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by the stage description.

 

I guess in my mind in comes down to screwing up a sequence. On any given gun if you shoot the targets out of order, you screwed up that sequence and earned a P. If you shoot the guns in the wrong order or fail to shoot one, you screwed up the sequence and earned the P.

 

So now we are back to why is not shooting the last 2 rounds of the rifle sequence not a P, and not shooting the shotgun at all is a P...

 

How about this, if you flat don't shoot that last gun, there is no way to hit the targets in the correct order so you earned the P.

 

The only time I've seen this happen was with a new shooter who for whatever reason didn't want to shoot the shotgun, and they didn't care if a P was or was not awarded. I have seen cases where a shooter couldn't shoot the shotgun for medical reasons and was allowed to stage an extra revolver with the minimum number of rounds in it to shoot in the shotguns place, perfectly reasonable for a monthly IMO.

[Griff]

BJT,

 

In your example, on the last gun, if it is skipped, whether due to brain fade or purposeful refusal, the call would be a "P" for "failure to attempt to fire a gun." In Grizzly's example, the attempt was made, but even if the the gun didn't malfunction, let's just say the shooter grabbed the wrong shells, or his ammo wouldn't chamber, neither would warrant a "P".

 

In the case where a shooter fails to complete a string, thru miscounting, jacking out a live round or other, he has still attempted the course with the proper gun at the proper time. And, since the rule calls for a miss unfired rounds remaining in pistols or jacked out for the rifle, and does not call for adding a "P" on top of the misses... I just don't see your concern. I don't see a conflict in the rules.

 

Unlike some shooters, I can still count faster in my head than I can thumb that hammer or work that lever... miscounting is a timer activated occurrence encountered by me with uncanny regularity. That condition, combined with timer activated tunnel vision often leaves me trying to decipher the TO's shouting in my plugged ears, ONE MORE!!!!

 

I have seen shooters, when they realize they've neglected to fire a round, still proceed to the next firearm, even heard a few say, "... ain't takin' 10 seconds to make up for a 5 second miss..." Such might be a borderline spirit of the game violation in some folks opinion; I happen to feel it takes a might more than statin' an obvious concept.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Mine eyes glazed over way back...

 

Now you boys are startin' ta make ma haid ache.