BP or BP Substitute?

[Bull Skinner]

Spoken like a true believer Brother Gatlin, AMEN.

[Fairshake]

Slowhand Bob, The reason you had problems with your Schofields and real black powder is that all the replicas of that gun was built without the bushing to stop this problem. It is not the fault of the BP regardless of brand but your guns. Do some research on this forum and you will find that is the biggest reason that all the real BP shooters stay away from the Schofields. That is a shame as I would buy a pair myself but I refuse to use any of the subs which are just smoke makers and nothing else. Pop Dawson, I am sorry that you received enough bad information to decide to use the sub powders. The wife could use reduced loads of the real powder and have a blast. When she saw that flame and fire come out those shotgun barrels that would be it!! Those subs are much more prone to producing rust than the real deal is. I can shoot my real BP 44-40 cartridges and not clean my guns for 5 days. Try that with the fake sub and see what happens.

["Pop" Dawson]

Well, I got her going tonight. We wound up using Jim Shockley's made by American Pioneer Powder.

14 grains in the Russians and 21 in the .44 mags. I hope there is a breeze or she might not see the targets.

Will work on a shotgun load tomorrow.

I loaded 200 of each and am going to have to take the powder measure apart and clean it, by this evening it was very hard to cycle.

[Bull Skinner]

Well, I got her going tonight. We wound up using Jim Shockley's made by American Pioneer Powder.

14 grains in the Russians and 21 in the .44 mags. I hope there is a breeze or she might not see the targets.

Will work on a shotgun load tomorrow.

I loaded 200 of each and am going to have to take the powder measure apart and clean it, by this evening it was very hard to cycle.

By all means tear down the measure clean it good immediately or it will rust shut. Don't ask me how I know.

["Pop" Dawson]

Thanks......... didn't think it was gonna come apart. Had to knock it apart with a wooden dowel.

I think this might be short lived with this messy stuff.

[Bull Skinner]

Thanks......... didn't think it was gonna come apart. Had to knock it apart with a wooden dowel.

I think this might be short lived with this messy stuff.

Again Pop, Singing the praises of real BP. I use an old Lyman 55 measure and a quick wipe with a paper towel will clean it. With the subs I use Lee plastic dippers, they don't corrode.

 

The problem with APP is it is very hygroscopic. It draws moisture out of the air like a sponge. This causes the dust to swell and that's what caused your measure to need beating on to get it apart. BP don't do that.

 

With BP I have let guns set for several days before cleaning. With APP I would never do that as it draws moisture immediately causing rust quickly.

 

And don't get me started on Pyrodex. I scored a big buy plus was given 4lbs. It only goes in shotgun and I clean immediately after shooting then follow it up with another wipe down in a couple days and I still get flash rust occasionally.

["Pop" Dawson]

Again Pop, Singing the praises of real BP. I use an old Lyman 55 measure and a quick wipe with a paper towel will clean it. With the subs I use Lee plastic dippers, they don't corrode.

 

The problem with APP is it is very hygroscopic. It draws moisture out of the air like a sponge. This causes the dust to swell and that's what caused your measure to need beating on to get it apart. BP don't do that.

 

With BP I have let guns set for several days before cleaning. With APP I would never do that as it draws moisture immediately causing rust quickly.

 

And don't get me started on Pyrodex. I scored a big buy plus was given 4lbs. It only goes in shotgun and I clean immediately after shooting then follow it up with another wipe down in a couple days and I still get flash rust occasionally.

 

Well, all our guns are treated with Eezox and they seem to take it better than the old RCBS uniflow did. Now this thing is old, my father had it way back when and when I started reloading again since putting it all up in 73 I just kept on using it.

["Pop" Dawson]

Ok......... all is well now with the BP loads.

One more question, what is in the jars ya'll carry to put the brass in after she shoots it?

Her brass got really narly last Sat. on the way home.

[Yusta B.]

Little bit of Dawn will do ya .........

[Dirty Chris]

The problem with APP is it is very hygroscopic. It draws moisture out of the air like a sponge. This causes the dust to swell and that's what caused your measure to need beating on to get it apart. BP don't do that.

 

With BP I have let guns set for several days before cleaning. With APP I would never do that as it draws moisture immediately causing rust quickly.

 

Fired APP residue is not hygroscopic. I've let my guns sit without cleaning for quite a while with no problems. But the unfired powder is REALLY bad if you don't clean off your press and measure after loading.

["Pop" Dawson]

I found that out the hard way.........In fact I've bought a second powder measure just so I can swap out. One for the BP an one for my Trailboss.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

It seems to me that reading about loading black powder/subs is like reading the instructions for assembling a swing set: It's complicated until you've done it, but even when it's completely understood, some will enjoy the process while others will find it tedious and boring.

 

I've shot black powder and subs loaded by friends, one loaded for pistol and rifle while the other loaded shotgun shells. The fact that they allowed me to shoot their rifle (44-40) and shotgun certainly helped immensely in the cleanup...since they cleaned them. I cleaned my pistols and since they're stainless, as has been pointed out, they were a breeze to the point that I simply took the grips off, washed them using Dawn and water and they looked new. My ultrasonic cleaner filled with Ed''s Red does an excellent job of lubing, but then not eveyone has one. Without a doubt, if 73's and shotguns were made in stainless, I'd shoot the nasty, smoke belchin', fire breathin', hoot to shoot stuff on a much more regular basis.

 

Since I now own a 44-40 rifle and a S x S, perhaps I'll look into it a bit more, but I'll probably take the same approach to it as I would with the assembly of a swing set: I'd rather have someone show me than read about it...although the reading is informative and I appreciate the time folks have taken to explain it. I'm thinking Lawman Mark would be an excellent mentor in my area and Pop, if I were you, I'd track down Judge 'em All Duncan. I'd betcha that he's as effecient with the loading and cleaning of this nasty, smoke belchin', fire breathin', hoot to shoot stuff...as he is shooting it.

[Noz]

Howdy

 

BP isn't hard to clean, but it can be a lot of work.

with smokeless you can shoot for ages without cleaning, with BP or subs you have to clean every 4 to 6 stages depending on your loading data and guns

 

i shoot smokeless for training, but shoot all my matches with BP(swiss here in europe, as it is clean burning and availible)

for our recent trip to the EOT i have loaded 777 and had a real good experience with it, easy to clean, you cases stay clean

i would use it all of the time if it wasn't that expensive here in europe (€45 per LBS=$63 per pound)

 

i loaded 777 with a filler(grits) in 44-40(in volume 50/50) and it gives a real light round that has enough umph to get a knockdown down.

 

greetings

 

Dutch Bear

 

P.S. i see people talking/writing about Balistol, on our recent trip to EOT i wasn't able to find it anywhere, were should i look on a next trip?

for me it is the only oil if your shooting BP

Ballistol is a German originated product. Should be easy to find in Europe.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

I will be loading .44 Russian's for her pistols and .44 magnums for her rifles. I had not thought about the shot gun but as the pard mentioned go with 12 grns of 777 as a starting point.

The learning curve will be trial and error just as most new bullet calibers are. *(I'm still working on a 45-70 and 30-30 long range round for myself.)

I've got the APP FFF on the way and will start playing with it Wednesday on my next off day.

Any starting suggestions on these particular rounds would be helpful as well. An thanks for all the help so far.

 

"Pop"

 

Pop, I use 777 in .38 if I shoot BP. 777 doesn't recommend using any fillers so a full case in .44 mag might be a little stiff. Because I can buy it cheap at Wally World after deer season I use Pyrodex in my SG and use the same bushing in my MEC as Clays. Works fine for me and cleans up easily with Windex with Vinegar. I didn't like Pyrodex in the Pistol or Rifle.

 

See you at the Tennessee State if not sooner.

 

Randy

["Pop" Dawson]

Pop, I use 777 in .38 if I shoot BP. 777 doesn't recommend using any fillers so a full case in .44 mag might be a little stiff. Because I can buy it cheap at Wally World after deer season I use Pyrodex in my SG and use the same bushing in my MEC as Clays. Works fine for me and cleans up easily with Windex with Vinegar. I didn't like Pyrodex in the Pistol or Rifle.

 

See you at the Tennessee State if not sooner.

 

Randy

 

Randy, I think I have it all worked out as far as the loads....... Judge- witnessed Duchess run her first loads on that warm up stage at OR. He said he thought I had the rifle a little warm, pistol too, but Deb said she felt no difference in those and the smokeless. I kinda like shooting them too.

I had Papa Dave change me to FC Duelist for Tennessee State an we are gonna try to come up the 6th and shoot with ya'll.

I am using 777 in the shotgun shells and APP in the others.

Pop

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

One more question, what is in the jars ya'll carry to put the brass in after she shoots it?

Her brass got really narly last Sat. on the way home.

 

Howdy

 

Nothing more than water with a squirt of dish soap in it. And you don't have to carry it around with you all day. Back at the car at the end of the match is plenty of time to dunk them in the jug. They won't crumble into dust if you don't dunk them in water directly after shooting them.

 

Regarding dust and corrosion on powder measures, real Black Powder dust will suck water out of the air and corrode up a powder measure real nicely too. I use a converted Lyman Black Powder measure for a lot of my loads. The body is iron, the moving parts are mostly brass. One day I did not clean it up after using it. After a week or two, the whole thing was bound up tight. The Black Powder dust left over from the loading session had clung to the brass parts, and was hygroscopic enough to suck plenty of moisture out of the air down in the basement. The brass corroded, and the green corrosion stuck the brass parts to the iron body real well. These days I always empty the hopper, then remove the brass rotor and clean it off with a couple of paper towels. I make sure there is no BP dust left behind. Then I store the brass rotor out of the iron body. I only marry them up again when I am about to use them.

 

The fine dust from real Black Powder sucks moisture out of the air just fine.

["Pop" Dawson]

Howdy

 

Nothing more than water with a squirt of dish soap in it. And you don't have to carry it around with you all day. Back at the car at the end of the match is plenty of time to dunk them in the jug. They won't crumble into dust if you don't dunk them in water directly after shooting them.

 

Regarding dust and corrosion on powder measures, real Black Powder dust will suck water out of the air and corrode up a powder measure real nicely too. I use a converted Lyman Black Powder measure for a lot of my loads. The body is iron, the moving parts are mostly brass. One day I did not clean it up after using it. After a week or two, the whole thing was bound up tight. The Black Powder dust left over from the loading session had clung to the brass parts, and was hygroscopic enough to suck plenty of moisture out of the air down in the basement. The brass corroded, and the green corrosion stuck the brass parts to the iron body real well. These days I always empty the hopper, then remove the brass rotor and clean it off with a couple of paper towels. I make sure there is no BP dust left behind. Then I store the brass rotor out of the iron body. I only marry them up again when I am about to use them.

 

The fine dust from real Black Powder sucks moisture out of the air just fine.

 

Lol......... that one time is all it took me. Soon as I'm through its apart and cleaned now!

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Randy, I think I have it all worked out as far as the loads....... Judge- witnessed Duchess run her first loads on that warm up stage at OR. He said he thought I had the rifle a little warm, pistol too, but Deb said she felt no difference in those and the smokeless. I kinda like shooting them too.

I had Papa Dave change me to FC Duelist for Tennessee State an we are gonna try to come up the 6th and shoot with ya'll.

I am using 777 in the shotgun shells and APP in the others.

Pop

Hopefully, I'll be able to get off work and see ya on the 6th.

 

Randy