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BP or BP Substitute?


"Pop" Dawson

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Duchess is wanting to try LFC, I'm not to sure of this as I'm very satisfied shooting smokless. Which would be the easiest to clean up after and load for someone that hasn't ever used BP?

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Duchess is wanting to try LFC, I'm not to sure of this as I'm very satisfied shooting smokless. Which would be the easiest to clean up after and load for someone that hasn't ever used BP?

IIRC, APP as it can use standard smokeless lubed bullets.

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Duchess is wanting to try LFC, I'm not to sure of this as I'm very satisfied shooting smokless. Which would be the easiest to clean up after and load for someone that hasn't ever used BP?

 

A couple months ago I had the same thought. Just wanted to give it a try and wanted the easiest route possible. I went with APP and didn't have to change anything about my loading other than the powder. Cleanup is way easier than smokeless, just some Windex and a couple patches and they're clean. And as a bonus it gets rid of the carbon rings on the front of the cylinder and if you shoot 38s the crud rings in the cylinder disappear also. :)

 

I shot smokeless today for the first time in a while and found cleaning to be much more annoying than with APP.

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I find Triple 7 very easy to clean too. I can clean my guns with a damp rag if needed. It meters easily and you can use bullets lubed for smokeless powder. It is less hydroscopic than other subs (ordinary BP being the least in my experience) and my wife thinks it smells better than ordinary BP but not a good as APP.

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In for a penny.....In for a pound....GO REAL BP ;)

Cleans up with Windex, BTW. B)

Cheers,

LG

I agree, yer gonna have to clean either one, might as well use real BP, real fire and smoke. :D Clean up is a snap, Good Luck

 

 

Jefro :ph34r:

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BP subs will cost ya more than real BP, with BP subs you can use regular lubed bullets for real BP you'll need spg lubed bullets at least for the rifle and they cost more so one cancels the other. Go with REAL BP, cleans up easy with windex or Murphy's mix( 1 part Murphy's oil soap, 1 part Hydrogen peroxide, 1 part alcohol) then use Ballistol or Clenzoil or just regular gun oil will do. Have fun!:ph34r: Rye

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You've gotten good advice so far. I use Real BP. Yes, you do need soft lead/soft lube bullets with the genuine stuff. An additional word of advice: If you decide to go with BP, clean your guns REAL GOOD before shooting any. Smokeless & BP residue don't play well together - they will combine into a rock-hard crust that only your dentist can remove. :blink:

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I shoot real BP, but have used all the subs at one time. Starting out, the learning curve is much easier with subs. I'd start there. If she really likes it, then start down the road of true enlightenment using the real stuff. GOEX!

 

FIRE!, SMOKE!, and KABOOM :excl: Which the subs cannot and will never duplicate. :)

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BP and any of the subs are easier to clean than smokeless. When I want to get the carbon rings out of my guns from shooting a steady diet of 45 S&W in LC or 38 in 357 I just shoot some BP! MPro7 is my favorite cleaner, doesn't take long at all. Less trouble than smikeless I think. Some use hot water and soap or windex or a plethora of odd concoctions that all seem to work well.

 

If you go with real BP you will need bullets with SPG lube or grease cookies. Regular cast bullets with their hard lube don't work that well.

 

APP I wasn't real happy with. Dirty, nasty stuff. Made the guns crunchy faster than 777. I especially didn't like all the dust that got in the press and measure and it really gums things up. Worse, it seems to attract moisture and AZ being a dry climate, I still had a bit of surface rust in the measure when I didn't clean it out throughly quick enough. It was all surface rust and came right off but it sure gummed things up!

 

Pyrodex is ok, but not my favorite, which is 777. Clean burning, super easy cleanup. Guns don't get fouled as bad it seems like. Best part is like the other subs (Pyrodex I ain't sure about) you can use the same bullets you use for smokeless. No grease cookies, no SPG, panlubing just load and go!

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just did this, found APP 3F best for .38's (lowest recoil and better metering)and 777 2F for 12g (more FPS and hulls reusable)...

YES, clean guns well, then re-clean with ballistoll/water..

after 100+ rpunds, cleanup was windex/wipe with paper towl, moose milk (ballistol+water), dry patch, then ballistol whipe...

EASY PEASY, no smells, really clean, and fast!

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Black Powder is NOT HARD TO CLEAN. It cleans up very quickly and easily with hot water or Windex..

It is simply messy. ;)

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Black Powder is NOT HARD TO CLEAN. It cleans up very quickly and easily with hot water or Windex..

It is simply messy. ;)

 

I concur with his Illustriousness, the Poet Laureate of the Wire.

 

Easy, but a tad messy. Less so with practice.

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Black Powder is NOT HARD TO CLEAN. It cleans up very quickly and easily with hot water or Windex..

It is simply messy. ;)

 

Yup, Black Powder is not difficult to clean up. This is a misconception among Smokeless shooters. It is messier, but actually easier to clean up than Smokeless. And you don't need any nasty chemicals like you do with Smokeless.

 

The real crux of the matter is twofold. Real Black Powder is often harder to find in some localities because of the stricter storage regulations. So you may have an easier time finding a substitute where you live. The price of real Black Powder has been rising over the last few years, but it is usually still a little bit cheaper than the subs.

 

The other issue is bullet lube. As has already been stated, you need to use a soft, gooey bullet lube with real Black Power, you cannot use the same sort of lube that you use with Smokeless bullets. Some of the subs, such as APP and 777 allow you to use standard Smokeless bullets with regular Smokeless bullet lubes. Others, like Pyrodex do not. You must use the same type of bullet lube with Pyrodex as you do with real Black Powder.

 

The last thing to consider is, 777 is about 15% more powerful than real Black Powder or any of the other subs, so it will give you more velocity and more recoil for any given load.

 

Although I have always shot real Black Power myself, I do recognize that there are valid reasons why someone may want to start out with a sub like APP.

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I will be loading .44 Russian's for her pistols and .44 magnums for her rifles. I had not thought about the shot gun but as the pard mentioned go with 12 grns of 777 as a starting point.

The learning curve will be trial and error just as most new bullet calibers are. *(I'm still working on a 45-70 and 30-30 long range round for myself.)

I've got the APP FFF on the way and will start playing with it Wednesday on my next off day.

Any starting suggestions on these particular rounds would be helpful as well. An thanks for all the help so far.

 

"Pop"

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I will be loading .44 Russian's for her pistols and .44 magnums for her rifles. I had not thought about the shot gun but as the pard mentioned go with 12 grns of 777 as a starting point.

 

"Pop"

I believe Ktown was referring to 12-gauge, not 12 grains of 777. That would be way too light of a load for shotgun. 777 should be loaded by volume, not weight, same as BP.

 

I've no experience with APP, but have shot lots of 777 and BP. 777 is a great sub. Lots of good info can be found on Hodgdon's website: Hodgdon

 

Also, lots of great info on Capt. Baylor's site: BP Subs For Dummies

 

Good luck!

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Howdy Again

 

12 grains in what? 44 Russian? 44 Mag? Shotgun? Sounds pretty light in any of them to me.

 

Since you are going to be using APP, why not just do as their website says? Put in enough for about 1/16" of compression. No more.

 

 

APP

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I will be loading .44 Russian's for her pistols and .44 magnums for her rifles. I had not thought about the shot gun but as the pard mentioned go with 12 grns of 777 ("?") as a starting point.

The learning curve will be trial and error just as most new bullet calibers are. *(I'm still working on a 45-70 and 30-30 long range round for myself.)

I've got the APP FFF ("?") on the way and will start playing with it Wednesday on my next off day.

Any starting suggestions on these particular rounds would be helpful as well. An thanks for all the help so far.

"Pop"

Unlike smokeless, BP and subs don't do well with reduced loads unless you start messing with fillers, which add complexity to the loading process. Unless you're attempting to match a reduced load, you will be best served to heed Driftwood's advice above. If you ARE trying to match a reduced load, use of a filler is necessary. And, if you're thinking of reduced loads, I'll start off suggesting that you anneal the top 1/3 of your cases to aid chamber sealing. It's a simple process and even is helpful with full loads.

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12 grains of 777 in 12 gauge might not clear the barrel! Heck, 12 grains in 44 Russian is a mouse fart load!

 

Multiply that by 5 for the 12 gauge and that's still a lighter load than most people shoot!

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Thanks Driftwood....I will use the APP info and your advice on the 1/16th compression to start.

 

Smoke is all she really wants out of the deal. Oracle got her out of the "I'm just watching" with a pair of .32 mags with BP.

She finally saw him again Saturday and he talked that BP stuff to her all day, so now she wants to try it......... but the

not messy stuff.

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She finally saw him again Saturday and he talked that BP stuff to her all day, so now she wants to try it......... but the

not messy stuff.

 

I think you missed part of the point of my earlier post. Shooting subs is just as messy as shooting Black Powder. You will get soot on your hands, and when you clean them it is messy. Simple, but messy. Don't clean your guns in the living room with the new white carpet.

 

You want smoke, you will get some soot and some mess. Whether you shoot real Black Powder or the subs. That's the way it is. You don't want any mess, stick with Smokeless.

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I think you missed part of the point of my earlier post. Shooting subs is just as messy as shooting Black Powder. You will get soot on your hands, and when you clean them it is messy. Simple, but messy. Don't clean your guns in the living room with the new white carpet.

 

You want smoke, you will get some soot and some mess. Whether you shoot real Black Powder or the subs. That's the way it is. You don't want any mess, stick with Smokeless.

 

Well said, Brother Driftwood, well said.

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yes i meant 12guage...thanks deadwood for correcting that!

yes, APP/777 subs are sticky/slimy/makes your guns "tacky"...but cleanup is easy

i use 3.1cc of 777 2f in my 12guage load (7/8oz #8) and pink wad

full case of APP 3f (very slicht compression) 125g bullet for pistols (the same volume in .38 of 777 is "stout")

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Thanks Driftwood....I will use the APP info and your advice on the 1/16th compression to start.

 

Smoke is all she really wants out of the deal. Oracle got her out of the "I'm just watching" with a pair of .32 mags with BP.

She finally saw him again Saturday and he talked that BP stuff to her all day, so now she wants to try it......... but the

not messy stuff.

 

Ok, its me that will load them for her. If I can use the bullets I have now, you guy say I can.

She cleans her own guns so I don't give a rip how messy they get, or how much soot and grim she gets covered with.

I agreed to try to load her some up for one shoot for her to try................... if she likes it there might be trouble or she'll need to start loading her own.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Howdy

 

BP isn't hard to clean, but it can be a lot of work.

with smokeless you can shoot for ages without cleaning, with BP or subs you have to clean every 4 to 6 stages depending on your loading data and guns

 

i shoot smokeless for training, but shoot all my matches with BP(swiss here in europe, as it is clean burning and availible)

for our recent trip to the EOT i have loaded 777 and had a real good experience with it, easy to clean, you cases stay clean

i would use it all of the time if it wasn't that expensive here in europe (€45 per LBS=$63 per pound)

 

i loaded 777 with a filler(grits) in 44-40(in volume 50/50) and it gives a real light round that has enough umph to get a knockdown down.

 

greetings

 

Dutch Bear

 

P.S. i see people talking/writing about Balistol, on our recent trip to EOT i wasn't able to find it anywhere, were should i look on a next trip?

for me it is the only oil if your shooting BP

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I do not think it has anything to do with being cleaner BUT the subs have allowed me to make smoke with my Uberti Schofields and I was never able to do that with real bp. My guess is that the white residue all over ones guns with the subs is a lubricant and this is enuff to keep 'my' pair of 45cal Schofields going for at least six stages without any cleaning help. I actually made the change to get away from the nasty chore of removing wax and and then pan lubing.

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