Is this rig legal? You make the call.

[Charlie Whiskers]

Just talked to Buck.It was Palewolf that declared it illegal unless he wanted to and I quote.."take a knife and cut off all the loops".Buck did not want to do that and asked to speak to someone about the way the rule read and was told by Palewolf that "I wrote the rule book".It was later determined by a "bigger" SASS officer ;after Buck withdrew himself rather than face the embarassment of being DQ'd that all he would have to do is NOT carry ammo in the loops.I guess the posse he was on were inclined to get a rope and go find Palewolf.He was told he's welcome to come back anytime he wants to and given an appology by said officer....not Palewolf.... who in my opinion should have been the one to appologise.It may be an "ugly" rig and too expensive in lots of people's opinions,but if HE likes it,that's his choice.In my opinion...B Western rigs are ugly,but that's just MY opinion.If that's what a person wants to wear,then wear it.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Who was the EOT Match Director? He should have been the final authority but maybe not for EOT. Since the Wild Bunch actually runs EOT unlike any other match, I am sure that even the Match Director can be over ruled at EOT. Range Masters are extremely busy in a match that large and mistakes can and have happened in the past. Having shot with the shooter in question with him wearing that rig last March I am a bit surprised someone made an issue of it as it clearly was not an advantage. SASS rules have gotten to the point that even the best experts we have can have difficulty getting to a majority decision.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

The story from the shooter........

 

Shot first day, everything fine.

Second day, he was approached by Palewolf and was told that the rig was illegal. SHOOTER HEARD that he could wear it "untied or cut off cartridge loops". If he was caught using the rig he would be DQ'd.

Shooter shot second day with it untied but found that it was not usable to shoot effectively that way as the holsters held the guns to tightly.

Shooter showed up the last day and worked with the posse but did not shoot. Helped with posse chores.

Shooter was approached by Palewolf after last day and was told he had heard incorrectly "that the cartridge loops had to be removed" just the ammo needed to be removed.

Shooter will be allowed to wear the rig WITH ammo after obtaining an ADA certificate from his Doctor. (Now we need a Doctors OK to claim we are unable to do something?)

 

<Pondering> Is wearing ammo anyplace but around your waist illegal even if you don't use it? IE Hatband, garter, as earplugs?

[Stump Water]

<Pondering> Is wearing ammo anyplace but around your waist illegal even if you don't use it? IE Hatband, garter, as earplugs?

 

Good question. It appears now that it is.

 

 

SHB P. 11

 

• Ammunition required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the

shooter’s person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotshell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be

safely staged as required by stage instructions. Rifle and revolver ammunition may not be

carried in a shotshell loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose,

cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.

• Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design (e.g., bandoleers must

be loose and not secured in any way to prevent movement). Modern drop pouches, combat

style shotgun loops, wrist or forearm bandoleers, and such are not allowed. Pouches shall

have a flap and must carry their contents loose, with no special provisions to organize the

contents for rapid retrieval. Leather belt slide ammo loops are acceptable; however, shotgun

shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo belt. Shotgun loops must be in

a single row.

• Cartridge loops must not have a metal or plastic liner. However, the entire loop may be

made of metal.

• Shotgun ammo loops may not accommodate more than two rounds per loop, and

rifle/revolver ammo loops shall accommodate only one round per loop.

• Ammo belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.

• Shotgun ammo loops must conform to the shooters contour (i.e., not tilt out from the belt).

• Cartridge loops mounted on a firearm’s stock or forearm are not allowed.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Shooter will be allowed to wear the rig WITH ammo after obtaining an ADA certificate from his Doctor. (Now we need a Doctors OK to claim we are unable to do something?)

 

 

Think that is the best way. Other wise anyone could clam anything is wrong with them.

 

 

Heck. After all he went through. And all he spent on that rig.

Getting something from the Doc should be the easy part.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Still ....... it really spoiled his EOT experience for what I don't see as a real good reason. It is different. I don't see how it can be called a "bandoleer" except is does have a few showy cartridge loops. Dumb.

 

Coffinmaker

[Grizzly Adams 3674]

The story from the shooter........

 

Shot first day, everything fine.

Second day, he was approached by Palewolf and was told that the rig was illegal. SHOOTER HEARD that he could wear it "untied or cut off cartridge loops". If he was caught using the rig he would be DQ'd.

Shooter shot second day with it untied but found that it was not usable to shoot effectively that way as the holsters held the guns to tightly.

Shooter showed up the last day and worked with the posse but did not shoot. Helped with posse chores.

Shooter was approached by Palewolf after last day and was told he had heard incorrectly "that the cartridge loops had to be removed" just the ammo needed to be removed.

Shooter will be allowed to wear the rig WITH ammo after obtaining an ADA certificate from his Doctor. (Now we need a Doctors OK to claim we are unable to do something?)

 

<Pondering> Is wearing ammo anyplace but around your waist illegal even if you don't use it? IE Hatband, garter, as earplugs?

 

Buck is a a gentleman and a pard to ride with. It was a pleasure having him on our posse.. While I personally think he got a raw deal, he accepted things graciously, with dignity, and demonstrated the best of the spirit of the game. Best to ya, Buck. The folks in "The Nations" would be proud! GA

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

High-handedness. I would think just the presence of the insulin pump should suffice, without any doctor's note needed.

[Anvil Al #59168]

If it was not the last shift to shoot that day.

 

And he had already shot 2 days.

 

Seems they could have offered to get him on another posse shooting the stages he

needed to shoot on a later shift.

 

 

But if it was already the last shift. He was already out of luck.

 

To bad.

He should get a refund.

 

P.S. Edit. Just went back read the post on what he was told.

They told him AFTER the shot on the last day. So no posse left for him

to catch on with. Bummer.

[Anvil Al #59168]

High-handedness. I would think just the presence of the insulin pump should suffice, without any doctor's note needed.

 

 

High handedness??? I don't think so.

 

Yes, in his case he could just show the insulin pump.

 

BUT. Then he goes to anohter match and it comes up again, and again, and again.

He may not WANT to show his pump to everyone.

 

Just get the little paper thing from the Doc. Throw it in the cart. Then you can show it a lot easier

than having to show the pump all the time.

 

I would also have a letter from the WB to carry with it.

 

 

Between the letter from the Doc, and the WB. That should cover him with any MD anywhere he goes.

 

Plus. That helps set a standard for those that have problems that can not

be seen so easily.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Guess ye are right there Big Al. Can't imagine any Cowboys anywhere not just takin' a pard's word for a handicap. Always in the past seems like we just took the shooter's word that he/she needed an accomodation of some sort.

 

You betcha a full refund would seem to be in order here.

 

Just what makes it illegal, I'd still like to hear. Seems jist fine to me for anyone, able-bodied or not.

[Shooting Bull]

 

Between the letter from the Doc, and the WB. That should cover him with any MD anywhere he goes.

 

 

I REALLY don't want to sound contrary Al because I feel you've got Buck's best interest at heart but, I'd bet my next paycheck you could search for decades and not find another MD who would NEED to see those letters. If the man says he's got an insulin pump, that's good enough for me. I'll trust a cowboy's word right up until they show me it can't be trusted.

 

I guess things get a little more "ticklish" when you're talking about a world championship but, that's a shame on all of us.

[Tom Bullweed]

I would vote to allow it in B-Western. It is a very cool looking rig. Some photos of rigs south of the border don't look too different from these.

If'n SASS is going to allow '92 Mare's Legs and '97s are unquestionably allowed, then this does not look like it gives a shooter any bit of advantage.

[Bad Hand]

I would vote to allow it in B-Western. It is a very cool looking rig. Some photos of rigs south of the border don't look too different from these.

If'n SASS is going to allow '92 Mare's Legs and '97s are unquestionably allowed, then this does not look like it gives a shooter any bit of advantage.

When did SASS start allowing "mare's legs"?

[Tom Bullweed]

You are correct about teh Mare's leg. I had been told that they were legal but just went back to the rules. It is not in there. My mistake!

I love the '92 but could never understand the desire for a Mare's leg.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Just talked to Buck.It was Palewolf that declared it illegal unless he wanted to and I quote.."take a knife and cut off all the loops".Buck did not want to do that and asked to speak to someone about the way the rule read and was told by Palewolf that "I wrote the rule book".It was later determined by a "bigger" SASS officer ;after Buck withdrew himself rather than face the embarassment of being DQ'd that all he would have to do is NOT carry ammo in the loops.I guess the posse he was on were inclined to get a rope and go find Palewolf.He was told he's welcome to come back anytime he wants to and given an appology by said officer....not Palewolf.... who in my opinion should have been the one to appologise.It may be an "ugly" rig and too expensive in lots of people's opinions,but if HE likes it,that's his choice.In my opinion...B Western rigs are ugly,but that's just MY opinion.If that's what a person wants to wear,then wear it.

Yikes!

 

This thread has me flabergasted. From the comments about the Convention, to Mernickle vouching for the holster's legality, to Hipshot blessing the holster, to the comment attributed to PWB, "I wrote the rule book."

 

It is a very bizarre situation. The only thing I can say for certain is that the PWB I know is humble and fair.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

I think the call was based on the immediate need and Monday morning quarterbacking without a dozen plus fokes trying to influence ones decision makes a huge difference. Perhaps a tentative decision to allow the individual to continue shooting might be an option for such calls in the future though. If a final decision is made against the shooter his score becomes illegal and thus nullified. I do not know the shooter involved but lets face it, are we ready to start letting shooters call their own misses, if not then requiring proof of disability is not any different. My last thought, would obesity make the rig legal? What if the same doctor who writes prescriptions for disability parking passes for overweight people writes one for an overweight shooter to have these 'prescription holster rigs'? We must be careful to not allow our decisions to be based on the individual or the situation, any rule/ruling must be uniform and applied equally to all everytime.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I REALLY don't want to sound contrary Al because I feel you've got Buck's best interest at heart but, I'd bet my next paycheck you could search for decades and not find another MD who would NEED to see those letters. If the man says he's got an insulin pump, that's good enough for me. I'll trust a cowboy's word right up until they show me it can't be trusted.

 

I guess things get a little more "ticklish" when you're talking about a world championship but, that's a shame on all of us.

 

 

I would say you are right. BUT. Ya never know what you will run into.

Look at what has already happened.

 

So WHY take that chance.

 

Cost of note from Doc???

Most likly free. Or not much at all on your next visit. Just have him write one up.

 

Show that to WB. Then note from WB???? Free.

 

Carry in your cart. Will NOT take up any room.

 

So why even take a chance on it happening again.

 

Pretty cheap insurance of it not happening again.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

If yer disabled, I've no problem with making allowances - matter of fact, we should. For someone without any issues, reloads from it would be wrong. But we don't know the state of the person who wore it at EOT.

I thought I read he had an insulin pump installed where the normal holster belt would go. Maybe I dreamed it.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I thought I read he had an insulin pump installed where the normal holster belt would go. Maybe I dreamed it.

 

 

GCK - You are correct. In addition to the pump, Buck also has nerve damage which causes his legs to go numb and makes it very difficult to walk if he wears holsters that put pressure on his hips.

 

I spent a few minutes on the phone with Buck regarding this situation and frankly I was shocked by the things I heard.

Buck was told that there was more than one complaint about his rig...

He was told that he did not need to know who had complained...

He was told that he either had to untie the leg straps (which means you could not draw the pistols from the holsters) or he could "Take a knife and cut off the ammo loops"...

He asked if simply removing the offending ammo from the loops would suffice and was told "No, and if I see this rig on you tomorrow - I will DQ you"...

When he asked about going to someone else for clarification of the rules - he was told that "It doesn't matter - I write the rules"...

 

Buck is a great kid and in spite of my best efforts, one of the least gamey shooters you will ever meet.

He decided that instead creating confrontation, instead of forcing the issue of being DQ'd, instead of being a distraction to his posse, he would just put his guns away and assist his posse on the third day.

 

I am very proud to call that young man my friend, because I wouldn't have been as mature.

[Stonewall Jake, SASS #60107]

btt

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

I like the bling but where is the shotgun belt?

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I like the bling but where is the shotgun belt?

An earlier post says he puts it on just before going to loading table and takes it off just after the unloading table.

[Blackey Cole]

Yes it is legal except for the ammo position. You would still need a shotgun belt with loops for your rifle ammo in case you eject a round and need to reload. Check on the statement about Bandoleers.

[Dog Ears Wilson, SASS #77948]

I am very proud to call that young man my friend, because I wouldn't have been as mature.

 

I doubt I would've handled it as well as this young man. That's class right there.

 

Everybody makes mistakes, but it sounds like this man is owed a BIG apology and entrance fees paid for next year's shoot.

[Madd Mike #8595]

I have shot with Buck several times, he likes to be showy at times, a very fun fellow as well

at the convention he was a gun spinner, and pretty gud at it, I saw it as a show rig (at the time)

I have shot and met with pale wolf several times

 

they are both stand up fellers

 

pale wolf is a volenteer that has stood the test of time

is he perfect

NO

is he a mellow understanding Range officer that looks at facts, and setting a precident, and applying the rules (at the time) as written / intended ?

YES

why wait so long to say something about following up complaints at a major match????

EOT has three shooting shifs and 650 shooters, Just a fact

 

mileage will always vary

 

 

 

 

and pale wolf,,,, under adversity,,,, has NOT resigned, and for good reason

EOT is a hard match

SASS is a tough venue

 

I am sure that all the parties envolved will grow from the experience

 

to enhance / improve

product development, even further in the future

 

not all manufacturers get it done, the firest go around

no matter HOW gud their intentions may be

 

thats my story

the end

[Cole Younger Requlator]

That does not sound like the PWB I know.

 

I have worked side by side as Rangemaster of EOT with PWB for a number of years. I have never seen him act in such a fashion.

 

As far as the cowboy in question, we need to make allowances for our shooter's with special needs. We have done it in the past and should continue.

[Bad Hand]

Talk about a lynch mob, everyone seems to agree that the holster/belt in question was/is illegal as worn. That is tied down with bullets in the loops. I don't know "Buck", but from the comments he sounds like a fine young man. It is unfortunate that this happened to him, mainly through miscommunication. I've never met PWB either, but have corresponded with him about the rules on a couple of occasions, and found him very knowledgeable and patient. We have 3rd party quotes as to what "Buck" says happened, PWB has wisely stayed out of this dust up. Based on no first hand information, there are people calling for PWB to resign, I don't see why people are blaming the messenger,PWB, for enforcing the rules. I'm sure "Buck" didn't deliberately set out to break the rules, but he did, and got called on it.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

In judging the Rig you need to look closely at it. It has TWO places where ammo loops are located. The most obvious one is on the front at chest level. The second location is behind the holster in the back.

 

It would be my call that this rig is legal as long as no ammo for reloads were obtained from the chest level loops, but if ammo were used from the loops in the rear, which are at or below waist level, then that would be fine.

 

It's not the wearing of the rig that should be in question but the place where the holsters hang and the location of the ammo. On this rig we have two ammo locations, one legal, one not. Just don't reload from the illegal location unless you want to get a procedural plus misses.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Now THIS is the kind of crap I always look forward to upon return from EoT.

 

I wasn't even going to respond to all of this misinformation (aka BS), misinterpretation and 3rd/4th hand speculation (if you weren't standing there when I had what I considered a friendly exchange with the shooter about the legality of the rig as it was being worn, you don't know what the "H" you're babbling about...there apparently WAS some misunderstanding on my part (lack of info...I was NOT informed that the shooter was wearing it to accomodate any "special needs" in order to allow him to shoot) and on the part of the shooter himself.

 

As I was 'making the rounds' on the range, I noticed the ammo in the loops and the tied down holsters (which, BTW, DOES constitute a secured bandolier under the rules), I stopped to ask him if he was using the ammo for stage reloads; and, if so, he could still use the rig to AVOID a potential future SDQ for "use or presence of illegal items"

 

(FWIW: it doesn't matter whether the ammo is in the front or the back)

 

1) Simply untie the holster tiedowns (he was NOT told he had to "cut them off")...I was not aware that the rig was difficult to use without the holsters being secured.

 

If the ammo in the loops was NOT being carried for stage reloads, he could leave the holsters tied down.

2) Simply remove the ammo from the loops while 'on the line' (another option would have been to remove the loops, but the rig COULD be worn "off the line" with ammo in them)

 

The shooter apparently chose to NOT finish the match the next day. I was unaware of that until I gave the shooter a ride to Mernickle's vendor booth and we (Buck, Bob, and myself) discussed the issue at length (and resolved most of the unfortunate misunderstandings).

 

BTW: I don't recall the exact exchange we had regarding knowing/writing the rules...IIRC, the comments were made after being informed that the shooter was told that the bandolier rule only applied to shotgun ammo.

 

Hipshot's name was NEVER mentioned during ANY of the conversations.

 

Final comment:

THE SHOOTER WAS NOT DQ'd.

Illegal equipment penalties are not awarded backwards. If a shooter is found to have illegal equipment, no penalty will be assessed for the stage(s) already completed.

RO1 p.15

[Bad Hand]

In judging the Rig you need to look closely at it. It has TWO places where ammo loops are located. The most obvious one is on the front at chest level. The second location is behind the holster in the back.

 

It would be my call that this rig is legal as long as no ammo for reloads were obtained from the chest level loops, but if ammo were used from the loops in the rear, which are at or below waist level, then that would be fine.

 

It's not the wearing of the rig that should be in question but the place where the holsters hang and the location of the ammo. On this rig we have two ammo locations, one legal, one not. Just don't reload from the illegal location unless you want to get a procedural plus misses.

 

 

I'm kinda disappointed that an ROII instructor doesn't know that the proper penalty for use of illegal equipment is SDQ, not a procedural.

[Presidio]

Now THIS is the kind of crap I always look forward to upon return from EoT.

 

I wasn't even going to respond to all of this misinformation (aka BS), misinterpretation and 3rd/4th hand speculation (if you weren't standing there when I had what I considered a friendly exchange with the shooter about the legality of the rig as it was being worn, you don't know what the "H" you're babbling about...there apparently WAS some misunderstanding on my part (lack of info...I was NOT informed that the shooter was wearing it to accomodate any "special needs" in order to allow him to shoot) and on the part of the shooter himself.

 

As I was 'making the rounds' on the range, I noticed the ammo in the loops and the tied down holsters (which, BTW, DOES constitute a secured bandolier under the rules), I stopped to ask him if he was using the ammo for stage reloads; and, if so, he could still use the rig to AVOID a potential future SDQ for "use or presence of illegal items"

 

(FWIW: it doesn't matter whether the ammo is in the front or the back)

 

1) Simply untie the holster tiedowns (he was NOT told he had to "cut them off")...I was not aware that the rig was difficult to use without the holsters being secured.

 

If the ammo in the loops was NOT being carried for stage reloads, he could leave the holsters tied down.

2) Simply remove the ammo from the loops while 'on the line' (another option would have been to remove the loops, but the rig COULD be worn "off the line" with ammo in them)

 

The shooter apparently chose to NOT finish the match the next day. I was unaware of that until I gave the shooter a ride to Mernickle's vendor booth and we (Buck, Bob, and myself) discussed the issue at length (and resolved most of the unfortunate misunderstandings).

 

BTW: I don't recall the exact exchange we had regarding knowing/writing the rules...IIRC, the comments were made after being informed that the shooter was told that the bandolier rule only applied to shotgun ammo.

 

Hipshot's name was NEVER mentioned during ANY of the conversations.

 

Final comment:

THE SHOOTER WAS NOT DQ'd.

RO1 p.15

 

 

Now this makes more sense than any of the other drivel that's been passed around here via the "hoof and mouth" wire. Far as I'm concerned - this discussion should have stayed with those involved and not brought to bear by others that like nothing better to do than stir the pot and get things all bent outta shape. Seems like some folks just have nothing better to do than make things hard or difficult for others.

[Doc Shapiro]

Thanks PWB. Always good to get the other side of the story.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I'm kinda disappointed that an ROII instructor doesn't know that the proper penalty for use of illegal equipment is SDQ, not a procedural.

 

Because I don't see the rig as being illegal equipment. To me I would not describe it as a BANDOLEER. It's a Holster and Holster belt. The ammo carried above the waist would be illegally acquired if used. The ammo in the loops behind the holster can be used. If the loops were on holster, would that make it any better?

If you look at the original post, all I am trying to determine here is if this Holster is legal as shown on the website. If not? Then under what conditions would it be legal?

 

That's my call.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Because I don't see the rig as being illegal equipment. To me I would not describe it as a BANDOLEER. It's a Holster and Holster belt. The ammo carried above the waist would be illegally acquired if used. The ammo in the loops behind the holster can be used.

 

That's my call.

 

...and you'd be WRONG.

 

THIS COMPANY also offers a number of "bandolier-style" rigs that are NOT LEGAL for SASS-rules competition.