Can you over compress BP?

[Errol Plain, SASS #47739]

OK, I am back with another wierd BP question. I have been shooting 2.2 CC (Goex) of 2F in Remington cases. 250 gr Big Lube bullet and 1/16 fiber wad. Since I have been getting a fair amount of blow back and people keep telling me I need more powder, I went to the next Lee dipper which is 2.5 CC (according to my trusty powder measure, this equates to about 36 grains). Once I add the wad, I am compressing the load about 3/8 of an inch. Seems like a lot to me, but I thought I would ask folks that know far more about it than me. TIA

[Subdeacon Joe]

OK, I am back with another wierd BP question. I have been shooting 2.2 CC (Goex) of 2F in Remington cases. 250 gr Big Lube bullet and 1/16 fiber wad. Since I have been getting a fair amount of blow back and people keep telling me I need more powder, I went to the next Lee dipper which is 2.5 CC (according to my trusty powder measure, this equates to about 36 grains). Once I add the wad, I am compressing the load about 3/8 of an inch. Seems like a lot to me, but I thought I would ask folks that know far more about it than me. TIA

 

 

It takes a bit, but yes you can. If you are crushing the grains to a smaller granulation, you are over compressing. Load one, then pull the bullet and look at the powder. If it looks more like FFFg than FFg, you are overcompressing it.

 

I haven't used wads so I don't know how compressible they are. I suspect that you are good.

 

Hmmm.....the other thing you could do is use the same vol. of powder but switch to FFFg from the start. That should give you at least a 10% in your chamber pressure.

[John Boy]

Can you over compress BP?

No

[royal barnes sass #5792]

If you are using a big lube bullet with BP lube I don't understand the need for a wad. Leave out the wad, use the 2.5cc dipper, seat to normal depth and use a good crimp. Some blowback is unavoidable with any caliber that does not use a bottleneck case.

[Rev Willy Dunkum, SASS # 61027]

Don't worry! You've already achieved Warthog status!

 

2.2cc Goex is what I was shooting with you last time we possed together. Same load and it lacks about 1/8" or less from filling the case. The bullet compresses enough but like you said, it could compress somewhat more.

 

All straightwall cases as the 45 Colt, 44 mag, 44 sp etc will have severe blowback. We can reduce it somewhat with a heavier crimp but its the nature of the beast. That's why we have dirty hands at the end of the match. Only way to reduce blowback nearly completely is to go with 44-40.

 

If you want to try the 2.5cc of Goex, be sure to heavily crimp the bullet during the seating process because the bullet may push back out of the case if you use the Lee taper crimp as a separate stage.

 

I'm going on the assumption you are using a single stage reloader.

[Errol Plain, SASS #47739]

Yep, I know I can't eliminate blowback, but I just thought I might be able to decrease it a little. I use a Dillon 550 and I have alway put a fairly stout crimp on them.

[Tuco Forsyth #72674]

No

 

I agree.

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

If you start bulging your brass during compression , it is too much. Rex

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

Still don't understand why your using a wad.

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

For cowboy ammo, you can omit the fiber wad. It really does not help much. Leaves more room for powder.

 

BTW, while you may not be able to over compress BP, you will certainly notice a change in the final accuracy characteristics of the ammo.

 

My experience was with 44-40. and I managed to get 40 grains (by weight) into a modern cartridge using a lyman bullet. I had buldging case issues... and some other problems..

 

Anyway, the ammo was not nearly as accurate as a somewhat lesser load.

 

Best to check out different powder charges to see what really shoots best for ya, then go with it.

[Errol Plain, SASS #47739]

I must say, the load I have been using is accurate. So, I may be causing myself problems, won't know 'till I try it. As for the wad, when I first started loading BP, local guys I learned from recomended it. Don't remember why any more. I'll try a few without the wads and see what happens. And no, my cases are not bulging, but eliminating the wad seems like it might be a good idea.

 

Virgil, how the heck did you get 40 grains in a modern case? What kind was it (not that I want to try, just curious)?

[Lou Graham, # 26112]

You can't get too much powder in but you can deform your beautiful, plump, shiny PRS bullets if you load in too much powder and smash too hard. Then they may not chamber and that's a real bummer. You can guess how I found this out.......

 

If you really hate the crud blowing around, the real cure is 44-40 or 38-40. I have some of each and I am amazed at how clean the innards of my 44-40 rifle are compared to my .45. Same with pistols.

 

If you like .45 and want to stick with it, just resign yourself to a little extra clean up. It's not that much extra time.

[Bull Skinner]

You can't get too much powder in but you can deform your beautiful, plump, shiny PRS bullets if you load in too much powder and smash too hard. Then they may not chamber and that's a real bummer. You can guess how I found this out.......

 

If you really hate the crud blowing around, the real cure is 44-40 or 38-40. I have some of each and I am amazed at how clean the innards of my 44-40 rifle are compared to my .45. Same with pistols.

 

If you like .45 and want to stick with it, just resign yourself to a little extra clean up. It's not that much extra time.

 

Hey Errol. Listen to the Lady she knows of that which she speaks.

 

Best advice yet. You want accuracy, little or no blow back go to 44-40. That's what I shoot.

 

Next time we shoot together come look at my rifle in 44-40. I haven't had the carrier out since last fall. I shoot a reduced load of 1.6 grains with a caulk backer rod filler and a Mav Dutchman bullet and I'll garruntee ya I have about 10% of the blow back that you do in your 45.

 

If you're not using a Big Lube bullet go to them they will eliminate the need for a wad other than as a filler.

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

I compress at least 1/4 inch in my .38 Specials without a wad... (22 grains of FFFg) This doesn't crush the powder into smaller granules as some would imply. It makes it into one solid pellet.

[Dubious Don #56333]

More powder isn't going to cure your blowback "problem". My 38's shoot a little cleaner than the 45LC's but 44-40 shoots cleanest of all. (That would be a clue)

 

The wad takes up space so if you want to add powder, take out the wad and add powder. Unless you're using grease cookies, little reason to use a wad anyway. I suppose it does "protect" the base of the bullet and promote better accuracy but...

[Utah Bob #35998]

Wad? Wad??

[Subdeacon Joe]

Wad? Wad??

 

Looks like the surgery affected his vision. Better use a big font.

 

The question, Bob, is "Can you over compress black powder?"

[Errol Plain, SASS #47739]

I fully understand that I can't "cure" the blowback with the straight case. I was just wondering if I might reduce it a bit. The cleaning is not really an issue, as you all have said that's just part of what we do. The 44-40 cure just ain't happenin' on my budget, much as I would like. Seems to be a consensus that the wad is not needed, so that is a step I can eliminate from the reloading process. As usual, an interesting variety of responses. That's why I ask questions, to learn more. Thanks to all. And Lou, I didn't deform by bullets, I'm not from the Magilla Gorilla school of reloading !

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

My main match rifles are 44-40 cepting for two, 357 - '73 and a 44spec - '66, but they do not get a lot of use anyway. Pistols are a lot less of a bother with blowback and I would say my favorite round fer them has become overwhelmingly the cowboy45special, this combination does not offer the 45Colt/44-40 confusion at the loading table either. I gues you could say that phillysoffically thet bp caint be overloaded but as a practical matter it can be done easily. Most of what I have read indicates that as it gets crushed it actually becomes less effective the more it gets broke down and pelletized.

Would be interesting to see if we even actually acheive a bigger bang and more smoke for our added expense to scream to 'look at me everbody'.

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

My main match rifles are 44-40 cepting for two, 357 - '73 and a 44spec - '66, but they do not get a lot of use anyway. Pistols are a lot less of a bother with blowback and I would say my favorite round fer them has become overwhelmingly the cowboy45special, this combination does not offer the 45Colt/44-40 confusion at the loading table either. I gues you could say that phillysoffically thet bp caint be overloaded but as a practical matter it can be done easily. Most of what I have read indicates that as it gets crushed it actually becomes less effective the more it gets broke down and pelletized.

Would be interesting to see if we even actually acheive a bigger bang and more smoke for our added expense to scream to 'look at me everbody'.

 

 

In my experience, heavy compression yields higher and more consistent velocities as well as a cleaner burn.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

The best you can hope for with 45 Colt brass is to reduce the blow back.

 

First you will find the wad is not necessary unless you are down loading and just want to fill up the air gap.

 

Now for some suggestions.

You say you are crimping the heck out of your rounds. With black powder the crimp is only necessary to keep water out should it rain or you cross the deep river. It also keeps the bullet from moving forward during recoil.

 

So if you crimp in the crimp groove on the 45 bullet enough to keep it from moving forward you should be good. If you crimp too much the brass may not expand back out enough to help seal the chamber as it should to reduce blow back.

 

Now the suggestion. Take your fired brass and check for the tightest chamber. Smallest expanded brass. Drop several pieces of brass in to all chambers of your revolvers. You want the chamber that is the smallest and not all brass drops in to. If you have had your chambers standardized then all your brass should fit all chambers. If you have a tight chamber then you want to resize your brass only enough to fit this tight chamber. This will reduce the amount of expanding the brass needs to do to fit the chambers during firing.

 

Don't for get to check your rifle chamber as well if it is 45 cal.

 

The walls of straight case brass is thicker than bottle neck brass. You can reduce the blow back but not stop it all together.

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Just an observation of what can be done to reduce blow back in 45 caliber. There have been many experiments done using 44-40 brass blown out to fit 45 caliber guns. The thinner walled brass then seals when fried. The hard part is keeping track of your brass during a match. It gets mixed in with others brass and your get some back as well as others who don't know what you're doing to your brass. If I where to do this I would certainly use Starline brass for it's wider and deeper case groove for greater extraction reliability. (Yes, I have done this to see for myself how well it works)

----------------

Here is a short article from Engineer Bill when he tried to cure the same problems you are describing.

Adventures in Black Powder Reloading by Engineer BILL

[Rowdy Yates, SASS #141]

Anneal your brass and compress the powder about one eight inch.

[Errol Plain, SASS #47739]

I guess I should have mentioned that I am only trying to reduce the blowback in my rifle (Tatlors/Uberti 66). I have had no problems with my pistols. And I use Remmington brass for the rifle and Starline for the pistol just so I can keep them seperate. I do not full-length resize the rifle brass so it should be more or less "fitted" to my rifle chamber. I had not heard of the idea with using 44-40 brass. Might get a few and try it, thanks Cliff Hanger!

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Virgil, how the heck did you get 40 grains in a modern case? What kind was it (not that I want to try, just curious)?

 

I won't clain this to be a good idea, cause its not. And, I made about 25 rounds and found out how really bad accuracy can be. The "boom and smoke" was not really any bigger or better.

 

First I primed a fire formed case and put in 40 grains of 3fg. Then I compressed the powder with a compression die. The I seat and crimped the bullet, causeing a slight buldge below the shoulder. Then, becasue I was using a .427 bullet, I resized the cartridge to get rid of the buldge.

[Fairshake]

You can get 40 grains into todays 44-40 cases with out too much of a problem. Use annealed cases with 3F Swiss that is drop tubed and compressed with a compression die and you are in business. I have some balloon head cases that will hold 44 grains. When I was shooting the 45 Colt in SASS and annealed all my cases,my blow back was very little with my cases being close to the same as when fired and my chambers were fast to clean. If you are using 45 Colt cases by Starline and not taking time to anneal then that is your problem. Starline are my choice for cases but they come with a notice on top of the brass in the box. It tells you to anneal all cases.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

If you are using 45 Colt cases by Starline and not taking time to anneal then that is your problem. Starline are my choice for cases but they come with a notice on top of the brass in the box. It tells you to anneal all cases.

 

 

???

 

I just got 500 Starline 45 Colt cases delivered by the big brown truck a couple of weeks ago. Aside from the standard legal disclaimer about safety when reloading, there was nothing mentioned about annealing the cases. I have never gotten any brass that told me I needed to anneal it.

 

As far as overcompressing is concerned, my experience has been that when highly compressed, the top 1/8" - 1/4" or so gets highly compressed into a relatively solid mass. But underneath that, the rest of the charge remains loosely packed. I have never seen BP compressed into one solid pellet in a case. Same with my 45-70 rounds that I use a compression die with. The top layer of the powder gets highly compressed, but underneath, the rest remains loosely packed in the case.

 

This makes sense when you think about it. We are not compressing a liquid, we are compressing a granular solid. The grains in the top layer get jammed together as the compression happens. But they pretty much 'absorb' the compression. The compression force transmitted down to the lower portion of the charge has been 'used up' by the grains at the top jamming themselves together.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Some other tips for reducing blowback in .45 Colt in a 73 rifle:

• Use Winchester brass - its the thinnest of the common .45 Colt cases
• Anneal neck about every 3-4 loadings
• Neck size only - that is, don't run the case into the sizer die any farther than where the base of the bullet sets when you compare to a loaded round.
• Have new, tight chamber cut in your rifle. Uberti chambers in their .45 Colt rifles are notoriously oversize quite often.
• Use 3Fg powder, and for cleanest shooting, use Swiss (as Fairshake pointed out)
• Load 250 grain soft slugs that are 0.001 or 0.002 inch over the groove diameter of barrel.

Good luck, GJ

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Starline are my choice for cases but they come with a notice on top of the brass in the box. It tells you to anneal all cases.

 

Nope, I believe the notice says to check case length. Certainly not to anneal the cases.

 

GJ

[Noz]

When I first started with 44-40 I attempted to load a max load of BP. I found that the cased bulged and caused a whole bucket full of problems.

Lesser quantities of powder with or without filler creates a more harmonious outcome.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Some other tips for reducing blowback in .45 Colt in a 73 rifle:

• Use Winchester brass - its the thinnest of the common .45 Colt cases
• Anneal neck about every 3-4 loadings
• Neck size only - that is, don't run the case into the sizer die any farther than where the base of the bullet sets when you compare to a loaded round.
• Have new, tight chamber cut in your rifle. Uberti chambers in their .45 Colt rifles are notoriously oversize quite often.
• Use 3Fg powder, and for cleanest shooting, use Swiss (as Fairshake pointed out)

• Load 250 grain soft slugs that are 0.001 or 0.002 inch over the groove diameter of barrel.

Good luck, GJ

GJ,

 

I've seen this a lot and I'm not sure understand the relationship of bullet size and blow back,. Are you saying to use the largest bullet you can, up to .001-.002 larger than your groove size, so it seals up the chamber better?

 

I have some .454 JP200's that shoot fine in my pistols and Uberti 66. I actually haven't seen the difference in blow back but should I just order .454 from now on? I know the recommendation is to go with a 250gr bullet but right now in my learning curve, the larger bullet with a full case load really screws up my pistol speed and accuracy (not to mention my knuckles).

 

Thanks

Willy

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I've seen this a lot and I'm not sure understand the relationship of bullet size and blow back,. Are you saying to use the largest bullet you can, up to .001-.002 larger than your groove size, so it seals up the chamber better?

 

I have some .454 JP200's that shoot fine in my pistols and Uberti 66. I actually haven't seen the difference in blow back but should I just order .454 from now on? I know the recommendation is to go with a 250gr bullet but right now in my learning curve, the larger bullet with a full case load really screws up my pistol speed and accuracy (not to mention my knuckles).

 

Part 1- larger bullet raises pressure in chamber just as soon as the slug hits the rifling. Higher pressure expands the case better, thus reducing blowback.

 

Part 2 - Many folks shoot a lighter load (both powder and slug) in their BP revolvers, where the amount of blowback is less of a problem. With BP, you normally control revolver fouling in ways other than reducing blowback. Good lube, lots of lube, special lubing of the base pin and cylinder bushing, proper cylinder to barrel clearance, not shooting reproduction top-breaks, etc.. Of course, lighter powder loadings get you into learning about fillers, usually.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Three Fingered Fred 59408]

**

[McCandless]

You're doing fine. The blowback is typical of a 45 colt case. Not the best rifle caliber for BP, but shoot whatcha brung and have at it!

 

By the way, my avatar picture is of me using a '66 to shoot BP

[Tom Bullweed]

My loads for my OMV are .45 Cowboy Specials with a 1/16" compression of APP FFFg or FFg. They seem to work about evenly.

The real help for blockback is that I baked my brass (super clean, no primers) at 400-F for 45 minutes to anneal that cases. They seem to swell enough to provide a good seal and stop the blowback. I really like the shorter C45S cases that hold the same amount of powder as my .38 Specials.

Rifle loads are now APP loads in .38WCF which also do a great job of sealing.