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APP Powder question


Ktown Kid

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Okay aside from $5.00 per pound at gander mtn, what is the differance between APP (blue label) and the Jim SHockey's GOLD...

and who is this jim dude?

 

thanks

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A local Ladies Frontier Cartridge shooter reported that she used Shockey's Gold in her firearms at Winter Range and it gummed up her revolvers so badly she had trouble shooting. She doesn't have that trouble with standard APP. I'm hoping the APP rep shows up to EOT so I can stock up. I'm just about out of APP and my wife needs some.

 

Shockey is a Canadian muzzleloader hunter with a hunting show broadcast on cable. He also has a guide service with black bear hunting on Vancouver Island among other hunts.

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Guest Cactus Cris SASS#2790

Edward---She might have come into the cart corral to clean. Cant remember- someone did and was complaining about her gummy guns. I only use real BP or APP. Loaded some 38 spl for a buckaroo for WR using APP and filler and they worked for entire match & no cleaning needed.

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thx for the info on shocky, now i know who he is...

 

reason I ask is found FFg in shocky and FFFg in regular APP. Thier website load info does not show any diferance....

 

catus, maybe a dumb question but what filler do you use?

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I've used both regular APP and the Shockey's gold FFg in shotshells and can't tell any difference. Only used the regular kind in my 38s though so I can't say if there's any difference there.

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Before I switched to Triple 7 to get away from all the dang dust, I loaded a lot of Shockeys Gold in 44-40 and 45c. It shot fine. No gun problems with it. Just got tired of cleaning up all my reloading equipment every time.

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You don't need fillers with a substitute!

 

 

WHOA, there pard. Where did you get that info? Everything I've ever read about real Black Powder or BP substitutes (inculding APP and GOEX Pinnacle) says you never leave any air space between the powder and the bullet because it can cause explosive pressures.

 

If you can document that info I'd like to see it.

 

Black Angus McPherson

(not an expert, nor do I play one on tv)

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WHOA, there pard. Where did you get that info? Everything I've ever read about real Black Powder or BP substitutes (inculding APP and GOEX Pinnacle) says you never leave any air space between the powder and the bullet because it can cause explosive pressures.

 

If you can document that info I'd like to see it.

 

Black Angus McPherson

(not an expert, nor do I play one on tv)

[/qu

Whatever, I'll bet that you won't tear the label off your mattress either!

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Direct from the American Pioneer Powder web page:

 

Cartridge Performance

General loading instructions are to fill the case with our loose powder just to the point where the base of the bullet will very slightly compress the powder, about 1/16", when it is seated. NO FURTHER COMPRESSION is recommended or advisable and will result in increase pressures and erratic velocities! It is important that no air space or gap be left when the bullet is seated, and the use of fillers is not recommended for general cartridge shooting, but is often required and acceptable for achieving the lower velocities desired in Cowboy Action Shooting. The filler should be composed of an acceptable material as recommended by the Single Action Shooting Society. No grease cookie or lube wad is needed, and the use of one will lower the performance. Regular bullet lube is fine - no special bullet lube is required. A good consistent crimp will help give consistent results.

 

So, it looks like the use of fillers is fine but they do not recommend empty space in the case.

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My own opinion....leaving an air space between BP & substitutes in cartridges is going to result in the happenstance of the possibility of three things. (1) Hiring a gunsmith to perform some repairs. (2) Giving your money to a firearms dealer for new hardware. (3) Increasing your insurance premiums and rates from a visitation to your local sawbones.

 

Don't use APP or Shockleys. Only use Goex 3f. So my dogfight is already done. :P

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The only filler I use is with Goex, for that is all they had when I started shooting flint locks and cap and ball I do not use it with (Clean Shot) APP or other subs,and I have been using black powder for over 20 years now and everything is loaded through a Dillon 550 now, my shot gun still uses Goex.

The only difference between APP and the Shockly Gold is the Gold has been siffted more to remove more of the dust for use in muzzle loaders.

Peddler

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From Capt. Baylor's page:

 

What happens if you don't fill the air space between powder and bullet?

 

Does the firearm blow up and remove your hand?

 

No. The space is too small for the blowup phenomenon that's occurred with big front stuffing rifles from long air spaces.

 

You get inconsistent loads. One will be puff, the next BANG. Accuracy suffers. APP and Pinnacle get really inconsistent. 777 seems least affected.

 

I've heard from several people who leave an airspace, and have done it myself, and not gotten any inconsistencies with APP in 38s. They all go bang just the same, and I haven't had to do any gun repairs or visit the sawbones for a blown up hand.

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I've heard from several people who leave an airspace, and have done it myself, and not gotten any inconsistencies with APP in 38s. They all go bang just the same, and I haven't had to do any gun repairs or visit the sawbones for a blown up hand.

 

I trust Cpt. Baylor on his findings and results more than I do others. But, I'll maintain the "no air space" reloading procedure as far as I'm concerned for my own reasonings. ^_^ Lot of things I'll chance a roll of the dice with.....this ain't one of 'em. ;)

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Direct from the American Pioneer Powder web page:

 

Cartridge Performance

General loading instructions are to fill the case with our loose powder just to the point where the base of the bullet will very slightly compress the powder, about 1/16", when it is seated. NO FURTHER COMPRESSION is recommended or advisable and will result in increase pressures and erratic velocities! It is important that no air space or gap be left when the bullet is seated, and the use of fillers is not recommended for general cartridge shooting, but is often required and acceptable for achieving the lower velocities desired in Cowboy Action Shooting. The filler should be composed of an acceptable material as recommended by the Single Action Shooting Society. No grease cookie or lube wad is needed, and the use of one will lower the performance. Regular bullet lube is fine - no special bullet lube is required. A good consistent crimp will help give consistent results.

 

So, it looks like the use of fillers is fine but they do not recommend empty space in the case.

Lawyer BS

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I trust Cpt. Baylor on his findings and results more than I do others. But, I'll maintain the "no air space" reloading procedure as far as I'm concerned for my own reasonings. ^_^ Lot of things I'll chance a roll of the dice with.....this ain't one of 'em. ;)

 

I typically do as well, just to be on the safe side, and because I don't feel the need to download 38s. A full case of APP and a 125 gr bullet aint exactly a warthog load. But if I did want to load them down some I wouldn't be too worried about messing with fillers or leaving an airspace.

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From Capt. Baylor's page:

 

 

 

I've heard from several people who leave an airspace, and have done it myself, and not gotten any inconsistencies with APP in 38s. They all go bang just the same, and I haven't had to do any gun repairs or visit the sawbones for a blown up hand.

Yep! And since APP puts out so much WHITE Smoke I just load half of the case.

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Hey K'town. I have been shooting FC and FC duelist all year with APP powders.

Loading to about 1/16" compression, tight crimps, Winchester primers and not-the-lightest bullets keeps the guns clean and does a good job of complete combustion of powder. Velocities are good and groups are as small as my smokeless loads.

I shoot .38's in my 92 Rossi and 73 Uberti: 125 grain bullets from Rocky River Jeb with FFFg. My pistol loads are .45 Cowboy Specials with 160-200 grain bullets with either FFg or FFFg. Both cartridges hold the same amount of powder!

Send me PM if you need the charge weights.

Two notes on the APP powder:

- the powder turns to dust very easily if store in a hot area or over-handled. This will raise pressure and velocity uncontrollably.

- APP does not require special lubed bullets like other subs or real BP

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thanks everyone!

im using FFg for 12g loads and FFFg for .38...yes on slight compression...

agree on 2F is chunky and not for the press (dipper load for 12g's) and 3F in the press...

so i take it that the APP "gold" has a little more processing to remove dust, aside from that, same powder...makes sense for muzzloadres

 

thanks again!

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  • 1 month later...

From Capt. Baylor's page:

 

 

 

I've heard from several people who leave an airspace, and have done it myself, and not gotten any inconsistencies with APP in 38s. They all go bang just the same, and I haven't had to do any gun repairs or visit the sawbones for a blown up hand.

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