Dirty Smokeless Powder -- Why Do People Care

[Bart Solo]

I read a lot of posts saying this powder or that powder (often Trail Boss) is really dirty. I have seen a lot of dirty cases among shooters of straight walled pistol calibers, especially at the low end. I am just wondering what difference it makes if a powder leaves a little soot on the brass. Is it aesthetics, or is there some technical reason? I mean, after all, we all tumble our brass and clean our guns, don't we?

[Three Fingered Fred 59408]

**

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

Yup, 'clean burning' Smokeless loads have always puzzled me too. It's one thing with a fussy semi-auto. My Dad's old Browning Double Auto used to bind up with Red Dot and even with American Select when it first came out. But I have never seen a single action revolver or a lever rifle that binds up because of a little bit of soot left on the cases. Shucks, Unique wasn't dirty enough for me, so I went to Black Powder. Now you're talking dirty.

 

But I digress. The main problem with shooters getting sooty cases is because they are loading down at the low end of the manufacturer's suggested loads. Or even below the manufacturer's recommended minimum loads. Unless you develop a reasonable amount of pressure, the case will not completely seal in the chamber and the soot will blow on by. Particularly with a straight walled case like 45 Colt. Not any kind of problem with a revolver, you ain't gonna get soot in your eye when the gun is held at arm's length. If you are getting a blast of gas in the face from a rifle, it is because you are not creating enough pressure to seal the case in the chamber. Add some more powder. Accept a little bit more recoil, or accept sooty cases. Your choice. More of a problem with rifles, which tend to have fairly loose chambers so they will feed better.

 

Even so, a little bit of Smokeless gas in the face ain't gonna hurt anybody. Ever gotten soot from a Black Powder round in the eye? That hurts.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

That new fangled smokeless stuff is just a passing fad anyhow.

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Folks will ask me for a very low end load, then ask "does it burn clean?" I always tell em, "you can get em to burn clean, or shoot em at the low end, but not both." Complaints about blowby are answered with "wear bigger glasses". I will say the Marlin seems worse for palpable blowby than a '73, but still if ya wanna run "poof" loads, yer gonna have soot. Get over it.

 

FWIW Trail Boss burns VERY clean if run at the top end of the data. Once fired cases come back as clean inside as unfired brass. But I don't want that much recoil....

[Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804]

That new fangled smokeless stuff is just a passing fad anyhow.

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

 

 

Stealth powder for stealth bullets. j-r

[twelve mile REB]

I would like to find a cleaner powder and the reason isn't the brass or its clean up. If you have a desire to have 2 to 4 second 10 shot runs with the rifle then you may also have a problem with soot. What happens is soot starts to cover the lifter and the slot in the reciver that the lifter runs up and down in. As the soot builds up between the lifter and the leading edge of the slot the lifter will grab or catch as it is cycled though and this slight opps throws at least my timeing off leading to a whole grab bag of other problems. Therefore the search for a cleaner burn. American Select is one that may serve those that are having trouble I haven't tried it yet but a good friend thinks its a little cleaner at those speeds. As always your opinion may differ.

12

[Colt McAllister]

Clean burning smokeless powder makes a huge difference. As a shooter that shoots his guns thousands of rounds between cleaning, a cleaner burning powder helps keep the guns running better between cleanings. With my limited time I can be cleaning guns or shooting guns. Yeah that's right I'd rather be shooting. The other reason is smoke. Some smokeless powders smoke way more than ohers. If I wanted to shoot through smoke I'd shoot BP. (Been there and done that for 4 years.)

[Bart Solo]

Clean burning smokeless powder makes a huge difference. As a shooter that shoots his guns thousands of rounds between cleaning, a cleaner burning powder helps keep the guns running better between cleanings. With my limited time I can be cleaning guns or shooting guns. Yeah that's right I'd rather be shooting. The other reason is smoke. Some smokeless powders smoke way more than ohers. If I wanted to shoot through smoke I'd shoot BP. (Been there and done that for 4 years.)

 

That leads to a followup question. How often do you clean your cowboy guns?

 

I know some who say once a year rather they need it or not, but I was taught firearm care and maintenace by my father who was both a trained job shop machinist and a combat veteran of WWII. He thought that on more than one occasion keeping his weapons clean and in service helped keep him alive when engaged in disputes with the japanese. He was insistent when he taught his sons about firearms, we didn't go to bed until our guns were cleaned. He was real insistent. To this day, I try to clean my guns as soon as practicable after use. I admit I don't clean them too diligently when I am deer hunting and it hasn't rained. Nor do I clean them between days in two day shoots.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

With all due respect, your Dad was probably shooting Semi-autos. They can get finicky with fouling. As I said earlier, I have never seen a single action revolver or a lever action rifle that jammed up because of a little bit of Smokeless residue. As I also said, my Dad's Browning Double Auto used to regularly get balky after a few boxes of Red Dot or American Select in its early configuration. But when I switched to Clays, because it burns so clean, Dad's old shotgun kept right on ticking after many boxes of shells without a hitch.

 

I have also had problems with Unique and S&W DA revolvers because unburnt flakes got lodged under the ejector star making it difficult to unlatch the cylinder. But with a single action revolver or a lever gun and a steady diet of Smokeless as long as you are not pushing the envelope with light loads, you can go a long time before you have to clean it. Run really light loads and create a lot of soot and you might find a different story.

 

Frankly, with modern primers and modern powders, you just are not going to get much corrosion unless you live in a swamp. So cleaning more often is more of a preference on the shooter's part than a need. I shoot mostly Black Powder in CAS, so those guns get cleaned frequently. I can't remember the last time I cleaned a Smokeless gun.

 

P.S. My Ruger Mark II gets cleaned a lot. 22 ammo is especially dirty, and being a semi-auto it can get finicky with a bit of fouling. I shoot it regularly in timed competitions and I don't want it stove piping, so I clean it before every match. But I can't remember the last time I cleaned a CAS single action revolver or lever gun that I shot with Smokeless powder. Never had a lick of trouble with any of them, either from corrosion or lack of function.

[Colt McAllister]

That leads to a followup question. How often do you clean your cowboy guns?

 

I know some who say once a year rather they need it or not, but I was taught firearm care and maintenace by my father who was both a trained job shop machinist and a combat veteran of WWII. He thought that on more than one occasion keeping his weapons clean and in service helped keep him alive when engaged in disputes with the japanese. He was insistent when he taught his sons about firearms, we didn't go to bed until our guns were cleaned. He was real insistent. To this day, I try to clean my guns as soon as practicable after use. I admit I don't clean them too diligently when I am deer hunting and it hasn't rained. Nor do I clean them between days in two day shoots.

 

How often, before every big match I go to.

[Charlie Whiskers]

I "usually" clean mine after about every 3 or 4 shoots.I shoot open tops and the carbon buildup between the cylinder and the barrel can make em sticky.My rifle's a different story.I clean that about every 5 or 6 shoots.My hunting rifle I make sure the barrel is fouled before I go out.Cold shots aren't as accurate as shots fired in a fouled barrel.Out here in Montana,300 and 400 yard shots are not uncommon for deer and speed goats.

[Bart Solo]

Driftwood I never said my dad was right. That is just the way he taught me. I have no doubt that if you are shooting modern smokeless powders with modern primers in a modern single action my father's preference for cleaning often is overkill. That said, habits formed as a youth are hard to overcome.

 

On the other hand he wasn't the only man of his generation who insisted on keeping his weapons clean and well maintained at all times. In fact that pretty much describes the thinking of most of the men who had an influence on me as I grew up. Every one of them was a product of WWII.

 

Of course, we are playing a game. When they were 19 and 20 they were fighting for their lives. Most importantly the non-coms who taught them were products of an even earlier age, the time when holy black gave way to smokeless.

[Colt McAllister]

Driftwood I never said my dad was right. That is just the way he taught me. I have no doubt that if you are shooting modern smokeless powders with modern primers in a modern single action my father's preference for cleaning often is overkill. That said, habits formed as a youth are hard to overcome.

 

On the other hand he wasn't the only man of his generation who insisted on keeping his weapons clean and well maintained at all times. In fact that pretty much describes the thinking of most of the men who had an influence on me as I grew up. Every one of them was a product of WWII.

 

Of course, we are playing a game. When they were 19 and 20 they were fighting for their lives. Most importantly the non-coms who taught them were products of an even earlier age, the time when holy black gave way to smokeless.

 

 

Don't sweat it Bart. If had people shooting back at me I'd clean my guns every chance I could.

[Willie Shootum]

This weekend I had an extractor bend on my 73. When I took it apart I found a lot of crud under it. I suspect this was part of the extractor failure. It is a used gun that I have had about 6 months. I had only cleaned it with spray cleaners and had not dissambled the bolt before. So I do not know how long it took for the crud to build up.I will pay more attention to spraying cleaner under the extractor in the future and plan to strip the gun all the way down at least once or twice a year.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Don't sweat it Bart. If had people shooting back at me I'd clean my guns every chance I could.

 

Bart

 

I sincerely hope you did not take my comment about your Dad the wrong way. I have the utmost respect for anybody who served in WWII.

 

I only meant to point out that most service men who learned to handle firearms in the service were instructed to clean the weapons after every use. I do not believe such frequent maintenance is necessary to keep a single action revolver or a lever rifle functioning. But if maintaining that sort of cleaning schedule makes an individual shooter happy, more power to him. I do frequently see comments that imply that those of us who do not clean our guns every time they are used are slackers, and I do not appreciate that.

 

If I was depending on my guns for my life, I would probably clean them after each use too. Wild Bill did. As a matter of fact, if I was a serious contender for an award at a big CAS match I would probably clean them before each match too. That's why my Ruger Mark II gets a frequent cleaning. But as I am pretty low on the CAS awards totem pole, it is really not an issue with me with CAS guns. I clean my guns Smokeless quite infrequently, and at least my CAS guns always go bang and don't get rusty.

 

As an aside, when my Dad sent me his old Browning Double Auto to use for trapshooting, I was pleased as punch to be using his shotgun. Shot it exclusively for the first few years. Other than the afore mentioned difficulty with it cycling with 'dirty powder' it performed like a champ, and always went bang when I pulled the trigger.

 

Best as I can remember, Dad bought it brand, spanky new around 1965 or so. He would usually clean the bore and oil it after every use. But I don't think he ever had a clue about how to take it down for a thorough cleaning. The last time Dad shot it was probably about 1970 or so, then it sat in his closet until he gave it to me around ten years ago. Sat in the closet with the internal hammer cocked all that time I might add. After I had shot it for a year or so I got ahold of take down instructions for it, and took it apart for a good cleaning. My Stars, I could not believe all the fouling down inside it. A thick coating of fouling coated every surface, including the moving parts. The layer of fouling was as much as 1/8" thick in some places. But despite having all that fouling down inside, and the dual hammer springs fully compressed for many years, not once did the gun fail to fire when the trigger was pulled. I lovingly gave it a good cleaning everywhere, inside and out, and a light coating of oil, before buttoning the old girl back up again. I might add that there was not a spec of rust anywhere inside the gun, despite having gone so long without cleaning. Testimony to the quality of a Belgian made Browning.

 

I don't shoot Dad's Browning much these days, probably a couple of years has elapsed since I shot it last. Probably ought to take it down again and clean up the insides.

[Chickahominy Charlie]

I'm a product of the "clean it before you do anything else" military mentality when it comes to this subject. What most former-military guys will tell you though is that there's a distinct difference between "cleaning for function" and "cleaning for inspection."

 

I "clean for function" after shooting a match. I run a wet patch with solvent through each of the cylinder chambers and bore. I put some solvent on the forcing cone area and scrub with a toothbrush. I put solvent on the cylinder face and scrub it too. I then dry, put some lubricant on it and put it back together. Takes me about 10 minutes per pistol. My lever actions get some solvent and Q-Tip work in the action, a wet (followed by a dry) patch down the bore and lubricated. I might take the rifle apart (take the side plates off) twice a year and clean.

 

A loooooong time ago, I carried an M-60 machinegun. I had a bottle of CLP in my cargo pocket and a toothbrush in my breast pocket. Whenever we stopped on a road march, I opened the action and cleaned it. Nothing will make you madder than to carry that heavy b***h 12 miles over hill and dale and have it jam when you need it.

 

Everyone's going to have their own opinions and experiences. I guess I just like to have that "warm fuzzy" feeling that it's going to go "bang" when I want it to.

 

Chick

[Filthy Lucre, 55674L]

Goex

[Hondo Tucker]

I am shooting Trail Boss (mid level) with 200 gr in my 45 LC rifle. It gets a little sticky after 100 to 150 rounds. When I say sticky, that means it is not just exactly like after I clean it. I like to go fast, so anything that isn't nice and slippery just won't do. My problem is that as often as not, there are more than one shooter using my guns. If anyone shows up new, forgot rifle, forgot ammo, or anything else, I offer mine. When the rifle gets cleaned, the side plates come off and everything gets cleaned. I take the bolt out and clean all the nooks and crannies about one shoot before a big shoot.

 

Pistols are not cleaned as often. I use 45 Cowboy Specials and love them to death. I seem to get a much cleaner burn, using one of the published data on AJ's site. They don't get loaned out for an entire match, so fewer rounds go out of them.

[Cowboy Junky]

Goex

 

Goex = lots of cleaning….possibly every few stages

 

Clays = semiannual cleaning and wipe down exterior after each match

 

Now the fun factor etc may vary for some …..but these are simply the facts…..lol

[Long Branch Louie]

I shoot respectable power factor loads, use Red Dot for everything (makes life simpler) and only clean before a big match. I wipe off the outside with a lightly oiled rag everytime I get home from a match. Red Dot does not burn especially clean, but I don't notice excessive soot. I do load my shotgun fairly light, pretty close to mimicking a AA low recoil, low noise load. I don't go overboard on cleaning brass either, I tumvble a couple hours, moreso so they are cleaner to reload than for shiny effect. Ain't trying to impress anybody with shiny cartridges in my belt....

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Goex = lots of cleaning….possibly every few stages

 

Clays = semiannual cleaning and wipe down exterior after each match

 

Now the fun factor etc may vary for some …..but these are simply the facts…..lol

 

No, those ain't the facts.

 

I can shoot an entire match with Black Powder and not have to do any cleaning at all during the match. During a two day shoot I usually don't even clean my guns between days. If you understand how to load Black Powder properly, you don't have to clean at all as often as some shooters think.

 

Of course, after a match I do clean my guns. Within a week or so, so it is still a lot more cleaning than I do with Smokeless.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Driftwood I never said my dad was right. That is just the way he taught me. I have no doubt that if you are shooting modern smokeless powders with modern primers in a modern single action my father's preference for cleaning often is overkill. That said, habits formed as a youth are hard to overcome.

 

On the other hand he wasn't the only man of his generation who insisted on keeping his weapons clean and well maintained at all times. In fact that pretty much describes the thinking of most of the men who had an influence on me as I grew up. Every one of them was a product of WWII.

 

Of course, we are playing a game. When they were 19 and 20 they were fighting for their lives. Most importantly the non-coms who taught them were products of an even earlier age, the time when holy black gave way to smokeless.

 

Difference is that your Dad was cleaning his WEAPON...we're cleaning GUNS.

 

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

If the empties fall out of the .45 with little or no use of the ejector, the revolvers are clean enough for me. With either TB or Bullseye, I can go several matches without touching em. The '73 stays WET with oil, which tends to float away the powder residue. The SXS gets cleaned once a year whether it needs it or not.

[Capt Stephen D Hill, SASS #56151]

I'm a product of the "clean it before you do anything else" military mentality when it comes to this subject. What most former-military guys will tell you though is that there's a distinct difference between "cleaning for function" and "cleaning for inspection."

 

I "clean for function" after shooting a match. I run a wet patch with solvent through each of the cylinder chambers and bore. I put some solvent on the forcing cone area and scrub with a toothbrush. I put solvent on the cylinder face and scrub it too. I then dry, put some lubricant on it and put it back together. Takes me about 10 minutes per pistol. My lever actions get some solvent and Q-Tip work in the action, a wet (followed by a dry) patch down the bore and lubricated. I might take the rifle apart (take the side plates off) twice a year and clean.

 

A loooooong time ago, I carried an M-60 machinegun. I had a bottle of CLP in my cargo pocket and a toothbrush in my breast pocket. Whenever we stopped on a road march, I opened the action and cleaned it. Nothing will make you madder than to carry that heavy b***h 12 miles over hill and dale and have it jam when you need it.

 

Everyone's going to have their own opinions and experiences. I guess I just like to have that "warm fuzzy" feeling that it's going to go "bang" when I want it to.

 

Chick

 

 

+1

 

From one who has learned about not cleaning properly!! IMHO

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

If the empties fall out of the .45 with little or no use of the ejector, the revolvers are clean enough for me.

 

Ya know AJ, I always agree with you on just about everything, but not this one.

 

I have always stood there at the unloading table and marveled at these guys who stand there, thumping the butt of their revolver on the table to knock the empties out. When I mention that there is a thingy mounted under the barrel of their revolver to help with that, they give me strange looks.

 

I always use the ejector. That's why its there. I pop the empties into my hand while I rotate the cylinder and operate the ejector.

[Trailrider #896]

Howdy, Pards,

Bart, let me give a bit of historical perspective on why your Dad was taught to clean his rifle all the time. During at least the early part of WWII, the powder used in the .30-06 M2 Ball was stuff called Pyro-DG. Especially in humid climates like the South Pacific this stuff smoked quite a bit more than the powders being used by the Japanese. It also produced a lot more crud. (The "DG" stood for Double Graphited.) On top of that, the primers contained potassium chlorate, which turned to potassium chloride after firing. The moisture in the air caused the residue to corrode like an s.o.b. The "cure" to keep your M-1 Garand functioning was to clean it every chance you got, with G.I. bore cleaner if avaiable or hot water if not. That obtained even in the ETO (Europe).

 

The switch to IMR-4895 and, after 1953, to non-corrosive primers (M-1 Carbine ammo NEVER had corrosive primers, BTW), eliminated a lot of the problems, but since the military changes its ways very slowly, cleaning your weapons was dogma, whether it was needed or not. Of course functioning of semi-and full-auto weapons is always improved by cleaning, it certainly was desireable.

 

Enter the 7.62 NATO round and 5.56, both loaded with ball powders, and the fouling problem, if not the corrosion factor was back with a vengance, especially in the AR-15/M-16/M-4 weapon system and the M-60 machine guns!

 

More modern smokeless powders IF LOADED TO PROPER LEVELS do not smoke or produce nearly as much fouling. The problem comes with folks who want ultra-low recoil, and so load near or below the MINIMUM recommended levels. THIS IS BAD! UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS UNDERLOADED smokeless powders can cause ignition delays that may leave bullets lodged in the barrel or, FAR WORSE, CAN CAUSE OVERPRESSURE SITUATIONS THAT CAN WRECK THE GUN, WITH POSSIBLE INJURY TO THE SHOOTER OR BYSTANDERS! In addition, crud buildup can lead to stiff actions, jamming, blowback, etc.

 

With properly loaded smokeless ammo you may be able to go several thousand rounds between thorough cleanings. Some powders are cleaner-burning than others, but if you are getting cartridge cases that are smoked more than half their length, you are not getting the pressures required to keep you out of trouble! Either increase your loads, switch powders, increase the weight of your bullets, or...switch to a lighter recoiling cartridge and guns!

 

Ride careful, Pards! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your Pard,

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Ya know AJ, I always agree with you on just about everything, but not this one.

 

I have always stood there at the unloading table and marveled at these guys who stand there, thumping the butt of their revolver on the table to knock the empties out. When I mention that there is a thingy mounted under the barrel of their revolver to help with that, they give me strange looks.

 

I always use the ejector. That's why its there. I pop the empties into my hand while I rotate the cylinder and operate the ejector.

 

 

Driftwood, I USE the ejector as needed. But I found with the .45, where chambers tend to be generous enough to toss a cat through, and low pressure loads that don't expand the cases much, if I tip the gun almost but not quite vertical and slowly turn the cylinder, the empties slide right into my hand. When say 3 or more of em won't, it's because the crud buildup is getting to a point where I MIGHT consider running a brush through em.... That's FUNCTIONAL clean for my prefered method of use,

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

You'd be surprised at the number of people here that seldom clean their firearm...

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

You'd be surprised at the number of people here that seldom clean their firearm...

 

 

I have one Ruger that has the remains of the fake CCB on it. After 8 years, lots of BP and smokeless, it's got what an auctioneer would describe as "a lovely early patina". The WWII trained GI would call it rust, but it's functionally clean, and still shoots as well as I can or better. CLEAN is over-rated.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Howdy

 

 

 

Even so, a little bit of Smokeless gas in the face ain't gonna hurt anybody. Ever gotten soot from a Black Powder round in the eye? That hurts.

 

 

Ahhhh but when it stops hurting, it feels great.

[Bart Solo]

I have one Ruger that has the remains of the fake CCB on it. After 8 years, lots of BP and smokeless, it's got what an auctioneer would describe as "a lovely early patina". The WWII trained GI would call it rust, but it's functionally clean, and still shoots as well as I can or better. CLEAN is over-rated.

 

A lot of us have a little early patina.