Stage 6 EOT - You make the call

[BJT]

Shooter does the rifle, gets to pistol position and starts banging away. On the third shot the bullet nicks the shoulder and hits the bonus. On the eight shot the bullet nicks the shoulder and hits the bonus. All other rifle, revolver and shotgun targets are hit as they should be.

 

How many misses?

How many bonuses?

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Texas Jim Henry, SASS #20616]

Shooter does the rifle, gets to pistol position and starts banging away. On the third shot the bullet nicks the shoulder and hits the bonus. On the eight shot the bullet nicks the shoulder and hits the bonus. All other rifle, revolver and shotgun targets are hit as they should be.

 

How many misses?

How many bonuses?

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Going purely on "common sense," I'd say no misses and no bonuses. He hit the targets, so no misses. I would think that inadvertent hits on the bonus targets (which were not being "engaged") should not be counted.

 

Regards, TJH

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I would call it a bonus and no misses. On bonus shot shooter's bullet got to bonus target. Shooters bullet could also hit stand, hit the ground or other and as long as it ricochets and hits the bonus he should get the bonus. We assume shooter was aiming at bonus since he eventually hit it-benefit of doubt goes to shooter. On second edge hit, it was just an edge it, where it goes after that does not matter. I say all this based on what I remember about stage where you could only get a single bonus. Did I remember correctly? I would give the benefit of the doubt to a very lucky shooter.

[Doc Shapiro]

How many bonuses were permitted by the stage description, and for what shots? From the sound of it, a very lucky shooter.

[BJT]

How many bonuses were permitted by the stage description, and for what shots? From the sound of it, a very lucky shooter.

 

 

You must not have seen the video. Instructions say hits on the bonus after the first hit are misses.

 

Regards,

BJT

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

How many bonuses were permitted by the stage description, and for what shots? From the sound of it, a very lucky shooter.

As I recall the shooter could get the bonus only once using either gun. The bonus was attached to the middle target of five.

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

I would call it a bonus and no misses. On bonus shot shooter's bullet got to bonus target. Shooters bullet could also hit stand, hit the ground or other and as long as it ricochets and hits the bonus he should get the bonus. We assume shooter was aiming at bonus since he eventually hit it-benefit of doubt goes to shooter. On second edge hit, it was just an edge it, where it goes after that does not matter. I say all this based on what I remember about stage where you could only get a single bonus. Did I remember correctly? I would give the benefit of the doubt to a very lucky shooter.

 

i have to agree with this. its not the way i would write the rules, but it is the rule.

CC

[Olen Rugged]

One bonus, one miss.

 

No harm to your score but you can't claim a clean match.

 

Olen

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

One bonus, one miss.

 

No harm to your score but you can't claim a clean match.

 

Olen

Which target was missed? I consider a 5 second penalty harm to your score unless every single shooter did not get the bonus.

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

Benefit of doubt always goes to the shooter, 1 bonus, no misses, clean stage

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Benefit of doubt always goes to the shooter, 1 bonus, no misses, clean stage

 

I agree..

[Olen Rugged]

Which target was missed? I consider a 5 second penalty harm to your score unless every single shooter did not get the bonus.

 

The stage instruction said, any other hit on the bonus target would be counted as a miss. 5-5=0, Nothing added to you score. That's your bonus.

 

Olen

[Doc Shapiro]

You must not have seen the video. Instructions say hits on the bonus after the first hit are misses.

 

Regards,

BJT

 

 

 

 

That's a toughie. Bonus for sure, as it was struck. But it was hit again and the stage description calls that a miss, even though the regular target was struck as well.

 

My call is clean with a bonus. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

What was the ruling at the line, and the final ruling?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Let's see......first pistol nicks target hits bonus as well......sounds like a hit on the bonus target so BONUS.

 

second pistol nicks target hits bonus as well.......

 

Opportunity for a clean miss? sounds like the answer MAY BE NO

 

Were the targets HIT in the correct order? YES......with an additional target being hit

 

Any hits on the bonus after the 1st one are misses.....BUT.....the additional shot on the bonus target also hit the regular target.........hmmmmm

 

I say Clean with a bonus.....but.......I could also see someone saying well the hit the regular target THEN the bonus target with the first pistol so NO Bonus.....and then say the same thing about the second pistol........which would be be CLEAN with no bonus........and then you could say that the instructions clearly state that any hits are the first one are misses so......1 MISS, 1 Bonus......

 

Stan - who thinks BJT is trying to point out that there could be a quite a few different calls depending on who was the making it.

 

 

 

BJT - did I win?

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I would call it CLEAN with bonus.

 

When the bullet deflected off the intented target a second time and struck the bonus, calling it anything other than a hit would be kinda crazy.

 

It would be like hitting your target and the bullet bouncing back within 5' of the shooter and trying to give him/her a MDQ based on the fact that the bullet struck within 5' of him/her.

 

OR even worse, skimming a round off the top of the target and it going over the berm and trying to DQ the shooter for the round over the berm.

 

Anyhow, just my thoughts.

 

 

..........Widder

[Colt McAllister]

It's a trick question. Because not every posse would call it the same way. Who needs consistancy at the world championship anyway?

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I wonder what happened the first time this stage was used?

[BJT]

It's a trick question. Because not every posse would call it the same way. Who needs consistancy at the world championship anyway?

 

 

The intent of proposing the question was to improve the situation described above.......

[bo bean 61280]

clean and a P shooting bonus out of order

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I wonder what happened the first time this stage was used?

Hasn't been used yet. This is the 2011 EOT Stage 6, supposedly.

 

PS - this would not be the first time that EOT has had problems with targets behind other targets, for which the rule about "target spacing must be set so that the shooter has a reasonable chance for a clean miss" got put in place.

 

Good luck, GJ

[BJT]

I wonder what happened the first time this stage was used?

 

 

If memory serves, two years ago, hitting the plate was a miss, hitting the circle was a bonus and hitting nothing was a no call. Someone glanced off the shoulder and hit the circle and was given a miss.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Fear not fellow shooters !! This will be clarified during the PM meeting before the match starts!!

[Stump Water]

I could also see someone saying well the hit the regular target THEN the bonus target with the first pistol so NO Bonus.....and then say the same thing about the second pistol........which would be be CLEAN with no bonus.

 

This. Which is also what TJH said.

 

On shots 3 & 8, regardless of the fact that the bullet only "nicked" the target, the bullet did HIT the target. Once the bullet HIT the target the shot is scored. What the bullet did after that isn't relevant.

 

Those that are awarding a hit on the bonus target, and clean, are saying that one "nick" is a hit and the other "nick" is not.

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

the only consistency here is that the shooter gets the benny in BOTH instances. it is a game i'm told.

CC

 

PS Happy,

why not expalin it at the shooters meeting and or insert it in the books so everybody knows, not just the PMs who showed up for the walk through and listened and understood it correctly?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If memory serves, two years ago, hitting the plate was a miss, hitting the circle was a bonus and hitting nothing was a no call. Someone glanced off the shoulder and hit the circle and was given a miss.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

That stage was, of course, using a much different stage instruction. That was a bonus shot at end of string,if I remember correctly. Here the situation is more complex due to the on-the-fly decision to shoot as a regular target or shoot as a bonus target.

 

* If bullet hits the regular target, even an edger, it's got to be called a hit on standard target. Does not matter what it hits AFTER is has hit a legal target!

* If bullet hits the swinger plate, without hitting the standard target, the first time it will be called a bonus hit. Second time shooter hits the swinger, it will be a miss, due to this year's stage instructions. Note - second hit some folks might try to make a P, since you are "out of correct order". But it can only be a miss due to the relatively new "targets too close for a clean miss" rule.

 

 

So, clean and NO bonus for the original post.

 

GJ

[Griff]

Going purely on "common sense," I'd say no misses and no bonuses. He hit the targets, so no misses. I would think that inadvertent hits on the bonus targets (which were not being "engaged") should not be counted.

Regards, TJH

TJH,

 

That's more like "uncommon good sense"... common sense would be the sheer stupidity of calling an edge "HIT" a miss and/or somehow awarding a bonus that wasn't engaged. If the scenario calls for hitting a target that's either surrounded by, or surrounding another target a bonus, then yes... I could see that hitting the "no-hit" target would be counted as a miss... Another of those instances where a picture is easily worth a thousand words. Sounds sorta like one of those self-starting deals where your first shot takes out a stand that starts a swinger behind a "no-hit" silhouette and the balance of your shots MUST be on the swinger. Hits on the "no-hit" target are misses, and misses on the swinger are also misses.

[Colt McAllister]

The intent of proposing the question was to improve the situation described above.......

 

 

I know what your intent was. I just left out the little smiley face on my response. It was supposed to be tongue and cheek, but make the point that stages written like this is what makes call from posse to posse inconsistant. Especially with no berm marshals.

[BJT]

I know what your intent was. I just left out the little smiley face on my response. It was supposed to be tongue and cheek, but make the point that stages written like this is what makes call from posse to posse inconsistant. Especially with no berm marshals.

 

 

I am with ya all the way. No offense intended or taken.

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Hasn't been used yet. This is the 2011 EOT Stage 6, supposedly.

 

PS - this would not be the first time that EOT has had problems with targets behind other targets, for which the rule about "target spacing must be set so that the shooter has a reasonable chance for a clean miss" got put in place.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Joe,

 

I thought they were re-using scenarios from past EOTs. Wouldn't that mean that this one had been used before?

 

Possum

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Joe,

 

I thought they were re-using scenarios from past EOTs. Wouldn't that mean that this one had been used before?

 

Possum

 

My bet is they are using IDEAS and Targets from stages past, not the exact scenario. But, maybe they did shoot this at EOT when in California. I never got to see one of those. But, I know they have not shot this exact stage at EOT NM before, as I've been to all those.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

After chewing on this one a while, searching for a ruling consistent with what else we do, I'd say whichever target a bullet hits FIRST counts, and any "accidental" hit after that doesn't count.

 

Here's the thinking. On any stage, a shooter takes a shot at a pistol target, hits the edge (legal hit), and the bullet continues and hits a SG or rifle target, it's a no call. Even if his bullet bounces off the edge of the correct pistol target and hits another pistol target, no call (except poor stage design). In other words, AFTER a bullet has struck the first target, whatever else it does matters not. SO, why would we award a bonus OR a penalty to a bullet strike that has already hit a correct target enroute to the errant hit?

 

The only exception of the above I know of is those instances where SG KDs are placed so that one CAN take a "two-fer", and do so legally (stage instructions say "in any order"), except ya still have to discharge enough shells to cover the count of SG targets.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

After chewing on this one a while, searching for a ruling consistent with what else we do, I'd say whichever target a bullet hits FIRST counts, and any "accidental" hit after that doesn't count.

 

Here's the thinking. On any stage, a shooter takes a shot at a pistol target, hits the edge (legal hit), and the bullet continues and hits a SG or rifle target, it's a no call. Even if his bullet bounces off the edge of the correct pistol target and hits another pistol target, no call (except poor stage design). In other words, AFTER a bullet has struck the first target, whatever else it does matters not. SO, why would we award a bonus OR a penalty to a bullet strike that has already hit a correct target enroute to the errant hit?

 

The only exception of the above I know of is those instances where SG KDs are placed so that one CAN take a "two-fer", and do so legally (stage instructions say "in any order"), except ya still have to discharge enough shells to cover the count of SG targets.

 

From the RO1

 

A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm.

 

 

I see nothing in the RO1 indicating that the appropriate target must be hit first.....only that it must be HIT.

 

In your first example.....the pistol round HIT the appropriate target so you could not call a MISS in that situation as you noted. However it's not because it was it FIRST.

 

Going in REVERSE.....if a shooter hits a pistol target with their RIFLE and the round HITS the appropriate RIFLE target that would still NOT meet be the definition of a MISS. The appropriate target (Rifle) was indeed HIT by the appropriate firearm (RIFLE).

 

So where does that leave us with BJT's question?

 

Stan

 

Stan

[Madd Mike #8595]

Shooter does the rifle, gets to pistol position and starts banging away. On the third shot the bullet nicks the shoulder and hits the bonus. On the eight shot the bullet nicks the shoulder and hits the bonus. All other rifle, revolver and shotgun targets are hit as they should be.

 

How many misses?

How many bonuses?

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

here I go

placing boot in mouth

 

if it were a real western, thingie in a sloon

 

(what was the correct order)

if the shoulder hit, then bonus hit was in order

I say , you get the hits, but you must put a round down range

 

(like < the second falling taget went down ) too soon (wind, watt-ever) when ya shot the first

 

you git the point

 

(that dont mean I am right)

that means what I would have said, if asked, when it happened, at the stage

 

PS

my sick thinking

I am standing is a saloon, harsassing a young saloon girl

mat dillon walks in,

first shot, was ment for (me) holding the girl

the shot hits me and then hits my back up shooter

 

two targets in order with one shot

 

I owe one down range, just cuz we are playing cowboys and badd guys...

 

thats how I still apply thing to CAS