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BP shooters.....need your assistance


Rico Kid

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Howdy folks.....I'll be shooting my first BP shoot coming up (Gunfighter of course)and I have a question concerning what you do for your brass. I shoot BP cartridge rifle, but I usually get home the same day, so cleaning the brass is no problem. But this shoot I'm going to is a four day trip away from home and I'm wondering what to do with the dirty brass until I get a chance to clean it up. Suggestions are appreciated.

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Toss it in to a ziplock bag and suck all the air out of it. Deal with the brass when you get home. A few days or even a couple of weeks, not a problem.

 

OR you can rinse in water with a little dish soap and then rinse with clean water. But I find it is not necessary.

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Howdy

 

My experience is that if left completely untreated for about 24 hours, green oxidation will begin to form on brass that has been fired with Black Powder and left in the air.

 

I suggest dumping your rounds into a jug of water with a little bit of dish soap squirted in. You don't have to do it at the end of each stage, the end of the day is plenty of time.

 

Dumping the brass in the jug of water will prevent the green oxidation from happening, but the longer the brass sits in the jug, the more it will become stained dark. Particularly since all the fouling will settle out to the bottom of the jug and the brass will be sitting in it for several days. For the record, I have left brass sitting in a jug like that for far more than a week, and no serious damage has occurred to the brass. It just gets some dark stains. If you want, you can bring along a strainer and a flat pan like a cookie sheet. If you rinse out each day's brass with PLENTY OF FRESH, CLEAN WATER and spread it out to dry on the cookie sheet covered with a couple of layers of paper towels, you will have the least staining possible.

 

Personally, I would just probably leave it all in the jug. I don't mind stained brass.

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I've got one of those one-gallon plastic jars with a screw top. I also have a quart-sized plastic jar in my guncart for the brass. When I get back to the room,I hot water and soap wash them, rinse clean. Then dump them all in the gallon jug with hot water and a little soap, the next day same thing,,, more water, more brass, more soap. Keep the brass covered with water.Did that on a two week trip from Wyoming back to Ga. No problems !!

Isom Dart

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I'm with Driftwood. Brass you use for BP or Subs is going to stain. Just the way it is. You do need to neutralize the residue however so you should rinse the brass in soapy water as soon as possible. For an "away" shoot, I just rinse each days brass and lay it out to dry. I also hang out the "do not disturb" sign so the housekeeping staff doesn't do something dumb with it.

 

Coffinmaker

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Howdy

 

My experience is that if left completely untreated for about 24 hours, green oxidation will begin to form on brass that has been fired with Black Powder and left in the air.

 

I suggest dumping your rounds into a jug of water with a little bit of dish soap squirted in. You don't have to do it at the end of each stage, the end of the day is plenty of time.

 

Dumping the brass in the jug of water will prevent the green oxidation from happening, but the longer the brass sits in the jug, the more it will become stained dark. Particularly since all the fouling will settle out to the bottom of the jug and the brass will be sitting in it for several days. For the record, I have left brass sitting in a jug like that for far more than a week, and no serious damage has occurred to the brass. It just gets some dark stains. If you want, you can bring along a strainer and a flat pan like a cookie sheet. If you rinse out each day's brass with PLENTY OF FRESH, CLEAN WATER and spread it out to dry on the cookie sheet covered with a couple of layers of paper towels, you will have the least staining possible.

 

Personally, I would just probably leave it all in the jug. I don't mind stained brass.

 

 

+1

 

Brass doesn't have to be shiny to be clean. BP brass can stay "pickled" in dish soap and water a month or so before rinsing, drying and tumbling. Just tumble enough to remove any grit. Black brass that is grit-free is CLEAN.

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get a mesh bag, hang it in the toilet, urinate on it and flush as your needs otherwise entail. Rinse thoroughly before leaving for home. Leave a tip for housekeeping.

 

 

 

Now that's funny right there....I don't care who you are!!!!

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Toss it in to a ziplock bag and suck all the air out of it. Deal with the brass when you get home. A few days or even a couple of weeks, not a problem

Plus One for Cliff Hanger!

When I do a BPCR road trip for a week, usually have in excess of a 1000 rounds of assorted calibers. I don't suck the air out of the bag but at the end of a week when I arrive home ... that's when they get cleaned. Been doing this 2 or 3 times a year for the past five years. Same brass folks!

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Howdy!

I also use the bucket with soap routine. Bring a 5 gallon bucket with a lid, put the brass and some dishwashing soap in it at the end of the first day. I may dump out some of this water the next day and add some clean water and more soap along with the second day's brass, if I've brought enough extra water. Put a lid on it and stick it in the pickup bed and take home and clean at your leisure.

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+1 for what John Boy said! You will loose more brass in the dirt/grass then you will to a little 4-day old green crud. ;)

 

My experience is to the contrary. Green crud within 24 hours if untreated. Once the green crud sets in it is tough to remove it. Soak them within 24 hours and no green crud sets in.

 

I have left them soaking in solution for WEEKS and they get pretty black, but no green crud. Even if they get black, they polish up nice and are still useable.

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Ok Folks, let's settle the discussion with an actual test. With pictures and with results!

This is a test that I performed using media, burnishing solution, plus with and without TSP in a rotary tumbler. On page 1 of the thread, in the middle of all the BLACK POWDER cases used in the test, is a 45 Colt. Look at it. It is one sorry looking case and I have no idea how long it got lost in my gun cart without being cleaned. My guess is MONTHS!

Then a few posts down, look at the Colt case after it was cleaned. Yes, it went into my can of empties and without a doubt is still being reloaded and shot to this day. And the inside of the case was as clean as the outside!

The test ...

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15417&sid=bcf33c9f106156dd2140b04ab09314d0&start=15

 

Also, let's take a Look Back ... do current BP shooters of today actually believe that back in the 1800's when original gunpowder was the only powder - that range hands, lawmen, gun fighters and others carried or had a jug of hot soapy water or Murphy's Mix or water/vinegar that they tied to the saddled horn, carried with them constantly and immediately dropped their spent cases into for cleaning? Or ran immediately home or to the office and said, 'I'd better clean my cases immediately'. I'd bet big bucks the answer is No. Their cases probably looked as groody as the one I used in the test, were reloaded and lived again to be shot another day ... probably MONTHS LATER. What destroyed cases back then was mercuric primers, not BP foul which is only postassium bicarbonate and posssium sulfide. Neither which are strong acid or caustic based that will eat the brass metal to death and make the brass not useable

 

Sing out if anyone believes or has historical documentation that folks of yore cleaned their brass immediately

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It appears from reading my Grandad's journel that mostly he just brushed out the inside of the cases at days end and reloaded them that same night ..

This was when they were activley hunting and shooting buffs .... And it seems that when they got bad they got a trip into the coffee pot with the grounds and all ,shaken then dumped into a "mouslim" sack and left in a creek fer a day or two then sun dried and loaded ... It seems that brass was cleaned in the coffee and crick "bout the third" time shot ...

It appears that Swen (his brother) favered the piss on them in a bowl,shake, then into the creek in a sack method ...

 

It also appears that at least twice that "while moving ahead" of some Indians, no cleaning of brass was done for the better part of a week ....

My granddad favered Coffee soaked patches to swab the barrel when needed ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Also, let's take a Look Back ... do current BP shooters of today actually believe that back in the 1800's when original gunpowder was the only powder - that range hands, lawmen, gun fighters and others carried or had a jug of hot soapy water or Murphy's Mix or water/vinegar that they tied to the saddled horn, carried with them constantly and immediately dropped their spent cases into for cleaning? Or ran immediately home or to the office and said, 'I'd better clean my cases immediately'.

 

Come on John Boy, that argument does not hold any water, pardon the pun, and you know it. Very few shooters in the 19th Century reloaded their ammo. Most bought a box of ammo and it lasted for years, because most did not shoot very much anyway. Yeah, Wild Bill shot every day, and cleaned his Navies every day, but he was shooting percussion and didn't have any brass to deal with. About the only folks that I have read about who actually reloaded their ammo were the buffalo hunters. They carried powder and lead with them and often reloaded their brass after a day's shooting. I honestly do not know whether they cleaned their brass or not, but most shooters just shot it once and threw away the cases. They were not going to be concerned with whether or not there was corrosion on their brass.

 

I've said a bazillion times that you don't need to drag a jug of water around all day. You don't need to soak them down immediately. Dumping brass into a jug of water back at the car at the end of a match is plenty of time. Or even when you get home or back to the hotel. It has been my experience that brass turns green after about 24 hours. No, I have not tried the fancy polishing techniques you are using, I find it much simpler to simply rinse out the brass, dry, it, then dump it into my tumbler. No polishing stuff, just plain Lizzard Litter. Plain Lizzard Litter in the tumbler has not worked for me to remove green corrosion. So I prefer to head it off at the pass by soaking the brass in a reasonable amount of time.

 

We all know there are more than one way to skin the BP cat. This is what has worked for me.

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Ok, lets understand something,GREEN stuff on brass is LOST METAL corroded away. The corroded spot, even when cleaned by washing off the grees "fuzz" is still converted chemically and is NOT as strong as it once was. I HAVE cleaned green brass and suffered case splits on the "scabs" left after removing the green fuzz. Brass won't turn green in any kind of reasonable time if deprived of oxygen. Put it in soapy water by day's end, you've stopped the corrosion process, at least for several weeks. Brass will corrode EVENTUALLY even in water, but we're talking several months (I have "found" a can forgotten a year or so, ended up tossing em all)... Prevent the green, or spend some, but black stains are no problem unless yer into "bling".

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My experience is to the contrary. Green crud within 24 hours if untreated. Once the green crud sets in it is tough to remove it. Soak them within 24 hours and no green crud sets in.

 

I have left them soaking in solution for WEEKS and they get pretty black, but no green crud. Even if they get black, they polish up nice and are still useable.

 

There ya have it... two dedicated BP shooters with differing opinions! ^_^

 

And there is the choice... no green crud with blackened shells (and the black is not easy to remove, but then, shiney brass is not needed, right?)

 

Or

 

A little green crud once in a while which (we disagree here) is easy to clean out. Plain old case tumbling. I am sure many will be horrified :o to know that I use Brasso.

 

And like I said, you will loose more brass to dirt & grass then ruptured cases.

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Note that many of the shooters in humid areas (southeast and northeast) recommend soaking the brass. Many of the shooters in drier areas recommend waiting. I suspect that this has a great deal of impact on their suggestions.

When done shooting, I knock out the primers with a Lee handloader and deprimer and then soak the brass in water and a drop of dishwashing soap (not sanitizing), rinse well later on and allow to dry. Gatorade 1.5 quart bottles are perfect for 100-120 cartridges.

I do not allow .32WCF or .38WCF brass to soak overnight due to the thin brass.

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http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Casting/IMGP1005.jpg

Anyone see any Verdigris (the green stuff) on the 45 Colt in the picture that was lost in my gun cart? Again, what gets on and stays on cases that have been shot with black powder and not cleaned is fouling. I repeat, fouling is potassium bicarbonate and potassium sulfide - not Verdigris. The only 'green stuff' I have seen on BP cases are the ones in my gun belt that were put there 10 years ago. Where did it come from? The reaction of the tannic acid (tannin) used to cure leather and the copper in the brass

 

How about some pictures of 'green stuff' on BP brass from folks that have left them uncleaned for a whatever period of time?

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interesting discussion, and thanks...

 

iv "tinkered" with BP, but here lately been "messin" with it and all this info is usefull!

 

Jabez, thanks for sharing "true" cowboy journel with us. Each time i hear you quote from it, well its history!..if you ever scan the journel, id be one of the first to read it!

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I'm not going to get into the green stuff discussion but I will throw out the things I have found works for me.

 

When I started shooting BP I took the advice of others here on the wire and got myself a used large Planters peanut jar. It is about a quart and a half sized with a screw on lid. I did the water and dish soap routine. It would barely hold all the brass from a 10 stage match. I have since gone to a Miricle Whip jar that I got from a deli at the grocery store. It is almost a gallon size with a nice sturdy handle molded in. The handle is really handy to move a container this size. The last shoot I went to I threw a small piece of mom's home made soap in the water, about the size of a large marble. The soap not only neutralized the powder residue but when the shells came out there was a film of oil on them. I've since tumbled them with some Brasso and they are shiney clean.

 

I guess the point is using the home made soap and the Miricle Whip container. Oh, since I asked for mine at the deli, they were throwing them away before, they now sell them for fifty cents a piece.

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OK, so how about a question on which soap to use? When I started out someone told me that a lot of soaps contain stuff (don’t recall what chemical) that will eat into brass. Cascade dishwasher soap was the one soap he was sure did not & was safe to use so that is what I have been soaking my brass in ever since. I use a Mason jar for its 19th Century ambiance; holds 6 stages worth of .44 & .45 just right. Maybe Soapy Smith will have a comment on this.

 

Seamus

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I don't know how to post pictures on a computer but green will appear on a BP cartridge case that is not cleaned and it will do it in about 24 to 48 hours. I don't know whether it's verdigris or rat pee but it's green! :) Using Brasso as an additive in your tumbler can also weaken brass as it contains ammonia. None of the additives specifically made for this purpose contain that particular ingredient. I put my brass in a plastic jar of water with a little Dawn dishwashing liquid just as soon as I get home from a match. Slosh it around a little, run cold water until all the soap is gone, dry off, and put in the tumbler. My brass is not real pretty but it's clean. This method has been working for about 35 years between BPCR and CAS.

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OK, so how about a question on which soap to use? When I started out someone told me that a lot of soaps contain stuff (don’t recall what chemical) that will eat into brass. Cascade dishwasher soap was the one soap he was sure did not & was safe to use so that is what I have been soaking my brass in ever since. I use a Mason jar for its 19th Century ambiance; holds 6 stages worth of .44 & .45 just right. Maybe Soapy Smith will have a comment on this.

 

Howdy Again

 

Where does this stuff come from? Now somebody claims that some kinds of soap can hurt your brass? Someone told you this? Was he another gunshop scientist?

 

Let's not get too technical about soap. It does not matter one bit what you use. I usually put a squirt of whatever dish soap is handy by the kitchen sink. I don't care what is in the soap, one squirt of dish soap into a jug of water ain't gonna hurt anything. It is too dilute.

 

Let's talk about the word neutralize for a moment. I ain't a chemist, but my Dad was. Chemically speaking the word neutralize means to change the pH to neutral, or 7. I have heard back and forth about whether Black Powder fouling is acid or base, but a squirt of dish soap diluted in a jug of water ain't gonna neutralize anything. It is too dilute.

 

Now let's talk about dilution. That's what we are doing when we dump our brass in a jug of water. We are diluting the fouling by allowing it to dissolve in a whole lot of water. When you rinse your brass out with lots of fresh water, you are diluting the BP fouling and rinsing it away. You ain't neutralizing anything.

 

When you drop your brass in a jug of water and give it a good shake, you are dissolving the fouling sitting on the surface of the brass and putting it in suspension in the water. That's why the water turns cloudy, because of all the fouling that is suspended in the water. Leave it sit on the floor of your car on the drive home and the vibration is enough to keep the water stirred up and keep the fouling in suspension in the water. As long as the fouling stays suspended in the water, and is not directly coating the brass, it will not tarnish, or at least the tarnish will happen at a very slow rate. Allow it to sit for very long in one place and the fouling drops out of suspension and coats anything sitting at the bottom of the jug. That's why brass that has sat for a long time in a jug turns black. Because the fouling has come out of suspension and has been allowed to coat the brass again. It is in direct contact with the brass. Keep it stirred up and the tarnishing is slowed way down.

 

My Dad was an expert on water treatment. All the soap does is what soap always does, break down the surface tension of water so the water can do the actual cleaning by diluting and rinsing stuff away.

 

We ain't neutralizing anything, unless you pour in a whole lot more than one squirt. In fact, I think both soap and BP fouling are basic, so if anything, add enough soap and you will raise the pH, not lower it. All we are doing is dissolving the fouling, keeping it in suspension in the water, and then rinsing it away with lots of fresh water, just like you rinse your hands after you are done washing them, to rinse away the dirt and the soap.

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All we are doing is dissolving the fouling, keeping it in suspension in the water, and then rinsing it away with lots of fresh water, just like you rinse your hands after you are done washing them, to rinse away the dirt and the soap.
Driftwood, if you believe this to be fact, do this: Either at the range or at home, put your spent brass in the container with the soap and water in it. Let the container sit for a day. Pour off all liquid.

Then send me a PM, describing the color of the brass and what remains on the bottom of the container. Better yet, post up a picture of the color of the brass and what the camera sees in the bottom of the container

Hint: You will not be a happy camper!

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John Boy

 

Why do you insist on pursuing this? I already said if you allow the jug to sit for a while, all the fouling will drop out of suspension and will settle to the bottom of the jug, covering the bottom of the jug and the brass with fouling, and this will hasten tarnishing. The key is to shake the jar, let is sit on the floor of the car so the vibration keeps the fouling in suspension, then rinse real good when you get home. Then you have diluted the fouling and washed it away. I already said that if you allow it to settle out it will be an ugly layer of crud coating everything.

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Dumping the brass in the jug of water will prevent the green oxidation from happening, but the longer the brass sits in the jug, the more it will become stained dark. Particularly since all the fouling will settle out to the bottom of the jug and the brass will be sitting in it for several days.

Driftwood, sorry that I missed your words ... way up the thread!

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There are good points being made by all posters.I live in Louisiana and must report what happens here. In a 3 day match you will find brass that has been fired just one or two days before and see that ugly green color. The grass will be wet enough to get you wet from head to toe if one was to lay down on it. That my fellow shooters is a lot of humidity. Your socks are wet by 9:30 AM. I have a leather bag that that receives my brass while shooting. As soon as I am finished I put it in a bucket in my truck that contains about 1 gallon of water and the following. About 2 oz of Dawn /OXY, 2 OZ of concentrated lemon juice, and 2 OZ of Pine Sol Lemon. The back of the truck provides the shaking.When opened about 2 hours later, the water is coal black and stinks like hell. My wife gags if she smells it. Several good rinses until the water is at least gray before going into the model B and enough water to cover the ceramic and brass by 1/2 inch. I let it go for 3-4 hours and it looks the same as the day it left Starline. We have had several days since the first of May that the heat index has been over 100-110.I have seen this same topic several times and with postings saying that is too much trouble and this is how I do mine and you are wasting time. My fellow shooters, we don't all live under the same conditions and when I am outside shooting a match in December with 75 degree weather and the North is shut down I can't tell them that they should be shooting because I can.As long as some one is happy with his method, why does it matter how he gets there. If you can show him a short cut that is great but Idaho and Louisiana have different weather.I am not saying anything that is not known to our members as they are all very wise and many know more about SASS than I. I will tell you that cases fired with BP will turn green in a very short time. I was reading where a case of 44-40 Winchester that contained 1,500 rounds cost $19 in the late 1800's. With this figure I would guess that many left the cases on the ground. The average man would not shoot this amount of ammo in a year or two or more.

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