A question about guns in your guncart

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

This came up at a shoot today and two knowledgeable shooters whose opinions I value disagreed. Another shooter put his gun away and put a gun sock over his gun with the action closed. Various places I shoot are, at times, windy and dusty or even rainy so I have gun sock I use as needed and the actions have to be closed to use them. I have not heard anything against that practice until one told the shooter he needed to keep the action open even with the gun in the sock. The other said it was OK and the first said there was a rule against it. Now, I know guns in the cart are to have open actions but I thought it is OK to put them in a sock with actions closed.

How is this handled at your clubs?

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

CASED guns (action enclosed entirely) may be closed. A scabbard or a sock qualifies, IMHO.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

A couple of years ago I asked a couple of RO committee members about this issue and was told that a closed gun in a case or scabbard was OK-like a case that zippered shut or a leather scabbard, but in a cart with a light weight slip on rain or dust cover over the individual guns, the gun action had to be open with the slip on cover over it. Most of the commercial gun cart slip on covers are made to allow the actions to be open. These are not the silicone storage slip on covers. This leaves a bit of interpretation since the difference between a light weight slip on cover and a scabbard is not too clear. Some ranges where it blows a lot of dust or rain most of the time, the rule is not followed too closely and if the wind and dust are blowing or it is raining, most shooters close their actions once the gun is in the gun cart with the slip on covers over the guns.

[ShadowCatcher]

This came up at a shoot today and two knowledgeable shooters whose opinions I value disagreed. Another shooter put his gun away and put a gun sock over his gun with the action closed. Various places I shoot are, at times, windy and dusty or even rainy so I have gun sock I use as needed and the actions have to be closed to use them. I have not heard anything against that practice until one told the shooter he needed to keep the action open even with the gun in the sock. The other said it was OK and the first said there was a rule against it. Now, I know guns in the cart are to have open actions but I thought it is OK to put them in a sock with actions closed.

How is this handled at your clubs?

I used to be pretty easy going - now when someone makes up a preposterous rule and starts quoting it to me my usual response is: "Show me the written rule!".

 

I carry my soft pistol cases in the wagon (my gun cart) and place the pistols there when I complete a stage - I'm not going to wear two guns all day . . .

My rifles are carried horizontal in the wagon, but they're cased in canvas sleeves, and they're out of view, unless you open the sleeve. Occasionally some

prairie expert wants to tell me about how some ranges, not this one mind you, will give me grief about it, or such, but frankly, most people are a lot

less into spouting off than that.

 

I like the silicon socks, but use the soft cases for the short guns, and canvas for the long . .It works for me . . . .

RUCAS and Marysville seem to be open minded and less filled with Mrs. Grundy types . . . . .

 

Shadow Catcher

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

None of my gun socks have a slit so the action could be opened, and none that I remember seeing had one either, except the one the guy had today. I glanced at it as the discussion went on and it had a slit, but it was short, mine are long enough to fold the bottom over the stock.

[Smithy]

I've never seen socks advertised as such (with a slit). Maybe this was something a kin to home brew that the guy did so he would feel that he was in compliance? Has anyone seen a commercial sock with a slit? Smithy.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2. Muzzle direction is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time.

Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.

SHB p.22

 

At the very first TG Summit, a "Match Director's exception" to this rule as it applies to cased/scabbarded long guns was approved, specifically for those ranges/clubs that experience blowing sand, dust, rain or other environmental conditions that might affect the safe & reliable function of a firearm.

The exception was adapted by all of the PNW club MD's at that time & was written into the 'safety briefing/range rules' for those clubs. (i.e. "...unless enclosed in a case or scabbard.")

 

That exception has NEVER been written into any of the rulebooks.

[Presidio]

SHB p.22

 

At the very first TG Summit, a "Match Director's exception" to this rule as it applies to cased/scabbarded long guns was approved, specifically for those ranges/clubs that experience blowing sand, dust, rain or other environmental conditions that might affect the safe & reliable function of a firearm.

The exception was adapted by all of the PNW club MD's at that time & was written into the 'safety briefing/range rules' for those clubs. (i.e. "...unless enclosed in a case or scabbard.")

 

That exception has NEVER been written into any of the rulebooks.

 

Thanks PWB. But, I gotta ask this probable dumb question. Where or when should the "gun socks" be applied? At the cart where a possible sweeping might occur or at the unloading table while under the watchful eye of the ULT officer? If that's the case, shouldn't the socks stay on until the shooter is at the Loading Table ready to load?

 

I foresee alot of "what ifs" coming over the horizon with this one.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

I have often wondered about this one as well. What legally qualifies as a "case" in most parts of the country is quite different from what I have been told qualifies for a case at a SASS match. In the state of MI when it comes to long guns you can transport them all day long in the flimsy socks and be legal, and a brown paper bag is acceptable for transportig a handgun. Would be nice if there was some clarification on this, since it is a very often discussed item and lots of folks intepretations seem to be different.

[Badlands Beady]

Slightly OT, but not quite.

 

I had occasion to use the cover for my Rugged Gear cart a couple of times last weekend, and it slves the problem nicely. The entire cart is enclosed and shielded, it's contents are fully accessible, and the guns remain stored with their actions open.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I've never seen socks advertised as such (with a slit). Maybe this was something a kin to home brew that the guy did so he would feel that he was in compliance? Has anyone seen a commercial sock with a slit? Smithy.

 

 

Have seen them for sale at shoots many times.

Have bought some with the slit.

Most SASS vendors do not advertise. Ya just see them at the shoots.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

I've never seen socks advertised as such (with a slit). Maybe this was something a kin to home brew that the guy did so he would feel that he was in compliance? Has anyone seen a commercial sock with a slit? Smithy.

 

Seen lots of them. They been around forever. Coupla years ago they were giving away real nice ones at EOT for door prizes. I bought a coupla those then and there offa pards. If anyone has any of those EOT long gun covers they want to sell, let me know.

[Iron Pony]

If you want slip on covers that let you keep levers open and shotguns "broken" check out Boston Scarlet's goodies at www.cowboystormgear.com

 

She makes waterproof fabric sleeves, among other things, that have velcro on them that allows the lever to stick out. I bought a pair years ago and they ride in the guncart pretty much fulltime now.

[Indian Jack.]

My son was carrying a cased 1876 at a big match a few months ago...guy came up and told him that if there was a rifle in that case it had to be out and the lever open . Me thinks the guy did not like to see a 14 year old holding a gun.

[Filthy Lucre, 55674L]

I have a waterproof one that will fit my rifles when the lever is open.

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

SHB p.22

 

At the very first TG Summit, a "Match Director's exception" to this rule as it applies to cased/scabbarded long guns was approved, specifically for those ranges/clubs that experience blowing sand, dust, rain or other environmental conditions that might affect the safe & reliable function of a firearm.

The exception was adapted by all of the PNW club MD's at that time & was written into the 'safety briefing/range rules' for those clubs. (i.e. "...unless enclosed in a case or scabbard.")

 

That exception has NEVER been written into any of the rulebooks.

Thanks PWB, are gun socks considered to be a case or scabbard?

 

Presidio, when I need to cover a gun I just tilt it forward some, close the action and pull the sock over the gun. It never leaves the cart to sweep anyone.

At Fire and Ice this year(all Ice and no Fire this year) I used a large plastic trash bag over my whole cart to keep the rain off the stuff in it.

[Presidio]

Thanks PWB, are gun socks considered to be a case or scabbard?

 

Presidio, when I need to cover a gun I just tilt it forward some, close the action and pull the sock over the gun. It never leaves the cart to sweep anyone.

 

At Fire and Ice this year(all Ice and no Fire this year) I used a large plastic trash bag over my whole cart to keep the rain off the stuff in it.

 

Yep. That makes sense enough fer me and for most folks....but then again fer some...if'n it ain't written.....

 

I just see it as a possible issue rearing an ugly head more often than not.

 

Kinda feel that this needs some kind of rule clarification (and I ain't one to advocate new rules at all), or just plum outlawed as a practice and stick with covering the whole cart as some have already mentioned here.

 

Jest muh 2 cents worth here.

[Hardin Morningwood]

Does the accepted interpretation of the Page 22 rule account for the change from Horizontal carry gun carts to the now common Vertical? Is Horizontal in any form acceptable?

 

The gun cart is the last piece of gear I need and was looking to make my own and this could be a design issue.

 

Hardin Morningwood.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Does the accepted interpretation of the Page 22 rule account for the change from Horizontal carry gun carts to the now common Vertical? Is Horizontal in any form acceptable?

 

The gun cart is the last piece of gear I need and was looking to make my own and this could be a design issue.

 

Hardin Morningwood.

 

Horizontal is dying out to vertical.

 

But still legal.

 

So far...

[Go West]

I use canvas covers with an open side at the bottom that allows actions open. Most folks would consider actions closed with a cover to be ok. This is the state that gives your guns the crunchy actions if you leave them unprotected.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Hy Jack, all ya need is a little coffin to push yer guns around in.

 

Fillmore

[Yusta B.]

The Cheyenne Regulators, the Sand Creek Raiders & other clubs in Eastern Colorado announce at the shooters meeting when windy conditions exist you may use covers or gun socks in your cart with actions closed.

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

Hy Jack, all ya need is a little coffin to push yer guns around in.

 

Fillmore

Yeah, but I've shot where the lee side of your rig would have had a sand dune forming!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...Where or when should the "gun socks" be applied? At the cart where a possible sweeping might occur or at the unloading table while under the watchful eye of the ULT officer? If that's the case, shouldn't the socks stay on until the shooter is at the Loading Table ready to load?

Thanks PWB, are gun socks considered to be a case or scabbard?

...

That's up to the MD ..see comments below.

 

...

I just see it as a possible issue rearing an ugly head more often than not.

It has.

 

Kinda feel that this needs some kind of rule clarification (and I ain't one to advocate new rules at all), or just plum outlawed as a practice and stick with covering the whole cart as some have already mentioned here.

The question of closed actions in enclose/covered carts is another (related) issue.

Keep in mind...there are still a few shooters who don't use carts...when this rule was being discussed, I was using a double scabbard to carry my long guns...some still use that method.

 

IMO IIRC, the reason this has never been made "official" is for the same potential liability concerns that the modification/disabling of safety devices on firearms isn't specifically allowed.

 

...any allowance for closed action when in a case/scabbard would be up to the Match Director for each individual match/club/range.

The application varies sometimes depending on the ability to pull the trigger while so enclosed.

 

FWIW - Most soft covers are either modified or manufactured to accomodate an open lever on a long gun while still keeping dust/sand/rain out of the action itself.

[Deacon Will]

Canvas gun covers.... check out your local PAINT STORE. They usually have canvas drop cloths. Some sell by the yard, while others sell cloths already made up in specific squares. Get a couple of guys together and buy 'one' and split the cost. Outline a pattern, cut it out and then sew the cover with a sewing machine. Pretty simple and 'cheap'

 

Another option I have and do use is UMBRELLA COVERS. You know when you walk into a store or office, hospital, etc on a rainy day there is a rack with a plastic a sleeve assortment so you can place the wet umbrella in it and not drop water on the floor. They work to cover the long guns.... real cheap.... and let you see the firearm.... and it's water proof.

[Kid Latham, SASS #79471]

A few years ago, there was a fellow on GunBroker selling 2/pc gun covers for CAS guns, specifically designed to protect the open action guns in a gun cart. Nicely made of vinyl, one piece fit over and covered the entire open action and lever and closed easily and securely with velcro. He also had styles for '97s and doubles. The other piece fit about 6-8" over the muzzle and closed with a rawhide drawstring. I've used them for a few years now. They work well, keeping dust, flying debris, etc. out of both action and barrel in a windy day, yet make the gun readily accessable for shooting. They were relatively inexpensive, around $10 a set at the time.

 

Unfortunately, I don't remember the seller's name, and can find no reference now on Gunbroker, but someone out there might have more current information on this product.

 

On wet days, I go for the trashbag over the guncart idea for full protection.

 

Regards,

Kid Latham

[JD Trampas, SASS # 55781]

I have 4 leather covers that cover my 2 rifles and 2 shotguns, when match starts, 2 come off, if it starts to rain, the covers go back on, the actions are open but covers enough of the action to keep it dry to an extent, if it gets really bad, I pull the garbage bag and cover the back half of gun cart where the long guns are, with the IA State Shoot this week-end, when match started it started sprinkling, used the 2 covers to cover up the 2 exposed long guns, didn't have to get the garbage out, but have in the past, and I don't like shooting in the rain, also with the covers on and raining I try to put gun cart under a closed place if there is one handy and sometimes there is, gets really crowded under the awning with all the gun carts there.

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

That's up to the MD ..see comments below.

 

 

 

IMO IIRC, the reason this has never been made "official" is for the same potential liability concerns that the modification/disabling of safety devices on firearms isn't specifically allowed.

 

...any allowance for closed action when in a case/scabbard would be up to the Match Director for each individual match/club/range.

The application varies sometimes depending on the ability to pull the trigger while so enclosed.

 

FWIW - Most soft covers are either modified or manufactured to accomodate an open lever on a long gun while still keeping dust/sand/rain out of the action itself.

Thanks for the clarification, guess I will use mine until told not to or until I figure a way to modify mine.

And the potential liability thing makes absolute sense when you consider our litigatious society.

[Presidio]

Thanks fer clearing that up, PWB!

 

Yep, I use to tote my long guns one in each hand with a saddle bag full of ammo over my shoulder when I first started.

 

It was pretty cool lookin' and style points fer sure and fer certain, but it lasted about 2 shoots and I got to hunting down a cart pert quick meownself. That chicken done lost its' spring some years ago.

[Blastmaster]

I have gun socks, gun covers and soft cases for my guns. Gun socks I do not use. Gun covers I use when I am using a cart and they work with the action open. Soft cases is what I use when no cart is used but the action is closed to fit in.

 

I prefer to drive my small car that gets half again the gas mileage at 2/3 the cost of diesel over my truck. Nearly $40 fuel savings per round trip monthly match plus the operating/ownership is half between the car vs truck. My cart will not fit into my car. I have tried a fold down cart and it takes up the whole trunk plus part of the back seat when you fold down the backseat to the trunk. I have looked at the fold up buggies you see on line and I don't think they would do much better in my car. No, I don't want to buy a bigger car at this time just to haul a gun cart. So,,,, I use a soft gun case for my long guns between stages when I am unable to use a loaner cart at the ranges I attend. I point my long guns into the berm OR straight up when casing and uncasing the gun. The actions are closed when they go into the case. As of now, the ranges where I shoot the monthlies haven't said anything.

 

So here I sit with my truck loaded with cart and guns to go attend a State shoot where there will be 160 shooters. Yes, I am paying extra in fuel, but I don;t need the hassle at such an important three day shoot. Also, I am taking more stuff to this shoot that a monthly shoot. I could've done it in the car, but it would have been stuffed. Cost of doing business in this case for instance.

 

I hope it doesn't get down to every shooter has to have a mandatory gun cart to be able to shoot.

 

If you want me to case and uncase at the LT & ULT, I can live with that.

 

Blastmaster

[Dubious Don #56333]

Blastmaster,

Please note that the "rule" A has no penalty attached and B, there isn't a match anywhere in to country that doesn't have SOMEONE sweeping themselves when they move their cart and no one is chasing after them like Goober after Barney screaming "Citizens arrest, citizens arrest!"

 

I know of several shooters that do not have a gun cart. One uses a nylon shooters bag, another uses a wooden box with a shoulder strap and both use regular guncases to tote their stuff. Over the years I've met LOTS of shooters who (usually because they don't have much money to work with) who do it this way and I don't remember anyone giving them a hard time about "your sweeping me with that cased gun" or, "the action has to be open even in the case" (gun wont fit that way)

 

Around these parts dust is a problem and I know many shooters (including myself) that will close the actions on the guns in the cart and slide a cover over them to protect them. Don't remember a single instance of someone getting upset over that. (nor should they)