Rifle AD

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

At shooters meeting this morning heard about an AD recently where the shooter cleared his rifle by cycling it several times for an unloading official, match ended and shooter was at his vehicle putting guns away and he wanted to de-cock his rifle and he just pulled the trigger. Gun went off. Further investigation showed his mag was full of gunk and the spring could easily hang up and not push last round out of the mag-of course until much later after it bounced around in the gun cart a while. Had heard about feeding issues on the line being common from rusty mag tubes but not one waiting til rifle was at vehicle to feed and go band. Now I know why we are trained to look for the follower. Some are black and very hard to see. How common is this kind of accident?

[Dubious Don #56333]

It happens... ya gots to look!

[The Shoer 27979]

At shooters meeting this morning heard about an AD recently where the shooter cleared his rifle by cycling it several times for an unloading official, match ended and shooter was at his vehicle putting guns away and he wanted to de-cock his rifle and he just pulled the trigger. Gun went off. Further investigation showed his mag was full of gunk and the spring could easily hang up and not push last round out of the mag-of course until much later after it bounced around in the gun cart a while. Had heard about feeding issues on the line being common from rusty mag tubes but not one waiting til rifle was at vehicle to feed and go band. Now I know why we are trained to look for the follower. Some are black and very hard to see. How common is this kind of accident?

what else do you know about this AD GCK where did it happen ??

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

i know of three. one where the mans wife was in the front seat of the van and the shooter put one through the roof.

one where the shooter put a round through anothers truck cab.

CC

[Black Tom]

State match couple years ago shooter shows up 1st stage second day, drops guns on loading table, closes lever and drops the hammer. DQ round went down range scares the heck out of you. I was one of the match officials first thought after what the heck was glad it went off hear and not in the parking lot.

BT

[Brasspounder]

That is why just jacking the action on a rifle a couple times is NOT sufficient to ensure

it is completely unloaded.

 

You have to LOOK in there and actually SEE the magazine follower to make sure the rifle is empty.

 

1873/1866 Winchesters/clones are easy, all you gotta do is turn 'em over with the action open and

you can see the follower there against the lifter block. Marlins and 1892/1894 Winchesters/clones are

more difficult because you have to look in there with the action only partly open to see it.

 

But seeing the follower is the ONLY way to be sure. If you work the ULT, INSIST on it.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I would imagine he loaded one round too many or the TO and spotters didn't notice he fired one round too few.

Like Brasspounder said, Always look for the follower.

[Mason]

Ok I got to add this. What part of the cleaning your guns training course did this chap miss ? and Spotters were you doing your job counting rounds ?

 

Now the biggie. Why would one ever just DROP THE HAMMER ?? Is that not asking for disaster ?

 

 

 

Just Sayin

 

 

 

 

Mason

[DocWard]

Ok I got to add this. What part of the cleaning your guns training course did this chap miss ? and Spotters were you doing your job counting rounds ?

 

Now the biggie. Why would one ever just DROP THE HAMMER ?? Is that not asking for disaster ?

 

 

 

Just Sayin

 

 

 

 

Mason

 

Seems to me that if Rule #1 had been followed, it would have never been an issue.

[Trueno del Diablo, SASS#22364L]

Doesn't have to be from poor maintenance of the mag tube. Had a round get hung up in my magazine at a shoot. Small piece of hay had found its way in there, probably from one of the hay bales being used for props/staging. Doesn't take much.

[Bad Hombre #23212]

At shooters meeting this morning heard about an AD recently where the shooter cleared his rifle by cycling it several times for an unloading official, match ended and shooter was at his vehicle putting guns away and he wanted to de-cock his rifle and he just pulled the trigger. Gun went off. Further investigation showed his mag was full of gunk and the spring could easily hang up and not push last round out of the mag-of course until much later after it bounced around in the gun cart a while. Had heard about feeding issues on the line being common from rusty mag tubes but not one waiting til rifle was at vehicle to feed and go band. Now I know why we are trained to look for the follower. Some are black and very hard to see. How common is this kind of accident?

I know of two parking lot ADs locally!!

Just think what that cartridge had to go through to get fired in the parking lot!!

It had to stick in the tube through several leverings...short stroked??

It could not get into the barrel without being on the carrier, in plain sight.

It had to ride on the carrier all the way to parking lot without falling off, assuming lever was open per rules.

Ok maybe I'll stop cussin those gravel roads!!

It had to be levered into the barrel without the shooter looking into the action to see that it was clear.

It had to have the hammer forcefully dropped instead of being let down.

But it still happens!!!!!!

 

BH

[Subdeacon Joe]

 

Now the biggie. Why would one ever just DROP THE HAMMER ?? Is that not asking for disaster ?

 

Just Sayin

 

Mason

 

One group I shot with for a while had you, after your course of fire, drop the magazine from the pistol, release the slide, and pull the trigger with the firearm pointed down range. In the case of those that had a magazine disconnect, you would insert an empty magazine after closing the slide. THEN you could holster and leave the line.

 

Although, doing that in the parking lot is asking for trouble. Personally, except for double action revolvers, I transport firearms with the action open.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Ok I got to add this. What part of the cleaning your guns training course did this chap miss ? and Spotters were you doing your job counting rounds ?

 

Now the biggie. Why would one ever just DROP THE HAMMER ?? Is that not asking for disaster ?

 

Just Sayin

Mason

Hi Mason,

 

I was always taught to carefully ease down the hammer on my guns. In April, I shot the Wild Bunch for the first time. On my third day, I came to the line with my stoked '97 (that is allowed in WB) on safety (a SDQ in SASS or WBAS to not have the hammer fully down). The MD (who followed me in shooting) told me to just pull the trigger to drop the hammer when loading. That way it wouldn't hang up on safety.

 

It is possible that practice could lead to more problems as mentioned in the OP? Maybe it would be better to remove that penalty in WB so that the shooter could just push the button to ready the gun to fire.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Snake River Clay SASS #34984]

I had a situation as match director of a WB match. Shooter mostly cowboy (never dry fire anything without snap caps); RO a lot of IPSC (dry fire to show clear). Shooter cleared pistol and eased hammer down. RO told him to dry fire to show empty. After a bit of discussion on the line I called the shooter's gun clear and the RO stopped running the timer.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

One group I shot with for a while had you, after your course of fire, drop the magazine from the pistol, release the slide, and pull the trigger with the firearm pointed down range. In the case of those that had a magazine disconnect, you would insert an empty magazine after closing the slide. THEN you could holster and leave the line.

 

Although, doing that in the parking lot is asking for trouble. Personally, except for double action revolvers, I transport firearms with the action open.

 

Most leverguns won't fit in a case with the action open. What we need is a bulletin to ALL TGs to get their clubs's safety meetings to include "when working the ULT, be sure to SEE the follower when clearing a rifle. Many shooters take their clues from the seasoned pards. they see a feller work the action a few times while not even looking at the gun, and expect that's a way to insure it's empty.

 

Another issue is many folks don't KNOW they neeed to clean mag tubes periodically. Many with 66s and 73s have never had that "gorilla-tightened" mag tube cap off.......

 

One last bit, personally clear every gun before it goes into the cart/holster, and again when it goes into the car. I NEVER close a levergun and lower the hammer without pointing it safely (in our club's parking lot, that would mean toward the dirt) and seeing the follower. I NEVER stow pistols in the truck without opening the gate and spinning the cylinder...... SXS is easy, look in the chambers before closing it and casing it up. Ultimately YOU are responsible for insuring your guns are empty for transport, and in many places it's also the law. Get caught riding around with a loaded rifle in NY is a good way to lose your PISTOL permit (even though I can ride around with a loaded handgun, the law forbids loaded long guns...)

[George Rodgers]

Paint the tip red to make it easier to see.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I had a situation as match director of a WB match. Shooter mostly cowboy (never dry fire anything without snap caps); RO a lot of IPSC (dry fire to show clear). Shooter cleared pistol and eased hammer down. RO told him to dry fire to show empty. After a bit of discussion on the line I called the shooter's gun clear and the RO stopped running the timer.

Why?? The rules clearly state to drop hammer, by pointing in a safe direction and pulling the trigger so the hammer falls unimpeded. This is how the 1911 should be cleared on the line, we all need to be enforcing the rules the same way. Good Luck

 

WB Handbook page 6

At the end of the course of fire the 1911 must be shown clear on the firing line. Under the supervision of the TO or other match official, the magazine is removed, slide cycled if not locked open, and the chamber checked. Then the slide is closed to battery, and the hammer is dropped before holstering. (Failure to comply, SDQ)

 

WB Directors Guide Range Operations 1911

UNLOAD and SHOW CLEAR: this means remove any live rounds and the magazine if one is inserted, and with the slide open hold the pistol so the official can see there is no magazine inserted and the chamber is empty.

SLIDE DOWN: This means allow the slide to go forward unimpeded, to battery.

HAMMER DOWN: While the pistol is pointed in a safe direction pull the trigger allowing the hammer to drop unimpeded.

HOLSTER: then place the cleared, safe pistol in the holster.

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[DocDisaster # 45431]

ND = Negligent Discharge.

 

What happened to physically and visually inspecting before dropping the hammer that is gun safety 101.

 

Thank goodness no one was injured.

 

Doc

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

Hi Mason,

 

I was always taught to carefully ease down the hammer on my guns. In April, I shot the Wild Bunch for the first time. On my third day, I came to the line with my stoked '97 (that is allowed in WB) on safety (a SDQ in SASS or WBAS to not have the hammer fully down). The MD (who followed me in shooting) told me to just pull the trigger to drop the hammer when loading. That way it wouldn't hang up on safety.

 

It is possible that practice could lead to more problems as mentioned in the OP? Maybe it would be better to remove that penalty in WB so that the shooter could just push the button to ready the gun to fire.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

better to just slowly and carefully put the hammer all the way down. A 97 on 1/2 cock is action locked. gotta bring it to full cock to open the action.

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

That is why just jacking the action on a rifle a couple times is NOT sufficient to ensure

it is completely unloaded.

 

You have to LOOK in there and actually SEE the magazine follower to make sure the rifle is empty.

 

1873/1866 Winchesters/clones are easy, all you gotta do is turn 'em over with the action open and

you can see the follower there against the lifter block. Marlins and 1892/1894 Winchesters/clones are

more difficult because you have to look in there with the action only partly open to see it.

 

But seeing the follower is the ONLY way to be sure. If you work the ULT, INSIST on it.

That goes for the '87 and '01 lever action shotguns, too.

 

Because I occasionally use the mag tube on my '01, every time I clear it I push the lifter down and visually check the follower. If the UTO or LTO are unfamiliar with the design (which is more often than not even today), I make it a point to show them what I'm doing so they know what to look for in the future.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The (Wild Bunch) rules clearly state to drop hammer, by pointing in a safe direction and pulling the trigger so the hammer falls unimpeded. This is how the 1911 should be cleared on the line, we all need to be enforcing the rules the same way.

 

Yep. If you are going to be the MATCH Director of a Wild Bunch side match, please learn and follow the Wild Bunch safety rules. Don't apply cowboy practices to Wild Bunch side matches, as the safety rules in WB have been VERY carefully thought out by a small number of very experienced shooters. You will get a better outcome that way. (If you have a need to locally adjust the guns and ammo sections of the rules, have at it. But use the safety aspects as written).

 

Good luck, GJ

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Back to the question - I've seen it happen to a very seasoned shooter...end of a big match in the parking lot. (He went and MDQ'd himself...he's an honorable person).

 

Just as stated, he had cycled his rifle and shown clear at the UL.

 

This is why you'll always see me open the lever seeing that there is no round on the carrier, and then turning the rifle upside down and making sure that I can see the Follower.

 

And then yes...I pull the trigger...I know, I'm soooo damn irresponsible...

 

Phantom