BJT Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Stage Writers, If you care where I start the stage (and you do not have to) give a stage instruction on where to start. If you care what gun I start with (and you do not have to) give a stage instruction on what gun to start with. If you care what target I start with (and you do not have to) give a stage instruction on what target to start with. Do you see a pattern? Never use the incompelte sentence "Repeat." Someone may think you want them to belch. "Shooter, repeat the engagement order" is a sentence. "Shooter, repeat the last shooting instruction with the second revolver" is a sentence. "Repeat" is not a sentence. If it is important enough to slap a pard with a P, it is important enough to document in the stage instruction. T.O.s, If you feel a need to rub marbles together in your hand and use geometric logic to find a P, hand off the timer. You should only issue a P because a shooter violated a stage instruction, not an implied instruction, not an act that everyone should know, not an action that is normal, only because they did something or did not do something that violated a specific instruction. The shooter should not have to ask "what does the stage writer want me to do?" The shooter should be free to ask "what do I want to do that complies with specific stage instructions?" Have A Lovely Weekend, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Can't agree more. If you want to give the shooter the option to shoot it anyway he wants then say it. If you want the shooter to have both feet on one side of a particular fence post then say it, don't say standing behind the fence then try to give the shooter a P for not understanding your intent. If you want the shooter to start a Nevada sweep on one end or the other say it, so the shooter can not start in the middle for the Nevada sweep. I think the growing pains we are having is that we are seeing stages that say " using 10 rifle, 10 pistol and four or more shotgun rounds shoot each target with at least two rounds and knock down the shotgun targets". Then we have stages that are written like we used to see, with maximum detail, except they miss some details. When that happens, shooters get creative. If you do not want the shooters to get creative, then be very specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 that seems ta cover it. well said. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 DA DA!!! Wasn't that eeeeeeeeeeez!!!!!!!!!! BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Now the request has been made. Now let us see if the match directors (stage designers) are listening. But I think all the wisdom of the original post on this thread already exists in the Match Directors Guide Match Design book available from your friendly SASS web site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Brady #24830Life Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 My belief and experience is that when you write stages, though you may read them over several times, often we are too close to the subject matter. What I mean is that we write stages, WE know what everyone should do, but often miss the details even after several readings. A suggestion, and one I try to follow, is have someone else read the stage and ask them what they will do as a shooter. Sometimes the answer can be surprising. My wife, tho she does not shoot, knows enough about what we do that I have her read the stages out loud, then tell me what she will do at each instruction. You can find some flaws that you, the writer, sometimes miss. Just a few ideas so everyone has a good time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Please print the original post in the Chronical. Not all stage writers read the Wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 T.O.s, If you feel a need to rub marbles together in your hand and use geometric logic to find a P, hand off the timer. You should only issue a P because a shooter violated a stage instruction, not an implied instruction, not an act that everyone should know, not an action that is normal, only because they did something or did not do something that violated a specific instruction. The shooter should not have to ask "what does the stage writer want me to do?" The shooter should be free to ask "what do I want to do that complies with specific stage instructions?" Have A Lovely Weekend, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Stage Writers, If you care where I start the stage (and you do not have to) give a stage instruction on where to start. If you care what gun I start with (and you do not have to) give a stage instruction on what gun to start with. If you care what target I start with (and you do not have to) give a stage instruction on what target to start with. Do you see a pattern? Never use the incompelte sentence "Repeat." Someone may think you want them to belch. "Shooter, repeat the engagement order" is a sentence. "Shooter, repeat the last shooting instruction with the second revolver" is a sentence. "Repeat" is not a sentence. If it is important enough to slap a pard with a P, it is important enough to document in the stage instruction. T.O.s, If you feel a need to rub marbles together in your hand and use geometric logic to find a P, hand off the timer. You should only issue a P because a shooter violated a stage instruction, not an implied instruction, not an act that everyone should know, not an action that is normal, only because they did something or did not do something that violated a specific instruction. The shooter should not have to ask "what does the stage writer want me to do?" The shooter should be free to ask "what do I want to do that complies with specific stage instructions?" Have A Lovely Weekend, BJT Well said BJ! "Repeat" If I say "Engage P1 thru P5 outside, outside, inside, inside, center, and repeat. Does that mean in EXACTLY the same order it was shot the first time Or? (IE some shooters will start on the left for the first five and then want to start on the RIGHT for the second five.) If you want to ORDER for the TWO sweeps to be exactly the same, repeat works. If all you care about as a stage writer is two O-O-I-I-C sweeps and do not care about exact order, don't use "REPEAT" Another example. "With first revolver engage P1 thru P3 once each any order for five rounds. REPEAT with second revolver. Since there are many choices, 2-1-2, 1-3-1, 1-1-3 does the shooter have to repeat the EXACT order with the second five rounds or just the main instruction - "Engage P1 thru P3 once each any order"...See what I mean? "Back home when we say..... it means this." Well if you ain't at home it might not mean...that. Stage writers, remember that you may have shooters from all over and they have no idea how "YOU" shoot a Hoosiewhatsit sweep, Nevada sweep, Chickamauga sweep or..... In other words, try to be as clear as you can! (Sweep the five targets any order. Do I HAVE to start on the end, can I start on the middle? Can I...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I have my check list. Ammo count were to stage guns shooters starting position where's the hands start by (line, physical act, shooter ready) always a stand by. gun order ( pistol, pistol, rifle, shotgun etc.) direction of target engagement or shooter choice on all fire arms. movement were to start were to stop or shooters choice explanation of sweeps and sequences if any Brady's idea of having a non-shooter of new shooter to proofread is outstanding!! If you get a lot of questions, note and do better the next time. Nobodies perfect!! BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Ball bearings, not marbles. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Mit allen resezieren Sie mich möchte die Anweisungen für alle Stadien, geschrieben auf spanisch; o quizá en alemán. Or, if your club's stage instructions have become clear as mud, maybe it's time to step into the breach and start writing them yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Well said BJ! "Repeat" If I say "Engage P1 thru P5 outside, outside, inside, inside, center, and repeat. Does that mean in EXACTLY the same order it was shot the first time Or? (IE some shooters will start on the left for the first five and then want to start on the RIGHT for the second five.) If you want to ORDER for the TWO sweeps to be exactly the same, repeat works. If all you care about as a stage writer is two O-O-I-I-C sweeps and do not care about exact order, don't use "REPEAT" Does your original shooting order even mean left outside, right outside, left inside, right inside, center? or right, left, right left, center? or left, right, right,left, center? or right, left, left, right, center? or does it even matter? Is P1 considered the left most target and P5 the right most target? Then you throw in REPEAT for second pistol. By the time you get all that written down so it is as clear as mud as a stage writer, you just wrote a book. Another example. "With first revolver engage P1 thru P3 once each any order for five rounds. REPEAT with second revolver. Since there are many choices, 2-1-2, 1-3-1, 1-1-3 does the shooter have to repeat the EXACT order with the second five rounds or just the main instruction - "Engage P1 thru P3 once each any order"...See what I mean? "Back home when we say..... it means this." Well if you ain't at home it might not mean...that. Stage writers, remember that you may have shooters from all over and they have no idea how "YOU" shoot a Hoosiewhatsit sweep, Nevada sweep, Chickamauga sweep or..... In other words, try to be as clear as you can! (Sweep the five targets any order. Do I HAVE to start on the end, can I start on the middle? Can I...? As people have said time and time again, stage writing is very difficult if you are intending to have people shoot it the same and eliminate or minimize all the interpetations people like to come up with. Just sayin'. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 As people have said time and time again, stage writing is very difficult if you are intending to have people shoot it the same and eliminate or minimize all the interpetations people like to come up with. Just sayin'. Blastmaster Perzactly! Stage instructions need to be clear. You want to eliminate as many "interpetations" as possible. However there's nothing wrong with stages that allow a shooter to "indulge" themselves such as "Shoot guns any order" or "Engage targets any order" or even toss in a ringer every now and then to make it interesting but above all, FUN! There's nothing difficult about writing a stage that a traditional, or duelist, or gunfighter stage would find to be challenging and fun. When writing a stage remember that a shooting string that works for a rifle (or gunfighter) might be a tad confoozing for a duelist or traditional shooter that has to change guns in the middle of the string. On top of that if your stage instructions are ambiguous, there's going to be some weird calls made! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Another way to have the stages reviewed is to post them on your clubs web site. Then questions can be asked and the stage description modified to account for the questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 . Does it need to be this hard Cant ppl just follow directions. If it said to repeat it means just that repeat "to do the same way again" . If they say place hands on TOP of prop it does not mean you wrap them around it. If the directions say stand behind fence it means just that not 1 foot because then only part of you is behind fence. Writing stages is hard .Do we need to have 2 pages For something that can be said in a half. El Muerto Negro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 . Does it need to be this hard Cant ppl just follow directions. If it said to repeat it means just that repeat "to do the same way again" . If they say place hands on TOP of prop it does not mean you wrap them around it. If the directions say stand behind fence it means just that not 1 foot because then only part of you is behind fence. Writing stages is hard .Do we need to have 2 pages For something that can be said in a half. El Muerto Negro A simple scenario. With first pistol sweep the five targets from either end. With second pistol-Repeat What do I repeat the scenario or what I did with my 1st pistol? Easier scenario: With first pistol sweep the five targets from either end. With second pistol- repeat scenario Or With second pistol-repeat first sequence. One or two words eliminates 15 questions and keeps stage moving along!! BH (who does'nt like answering the same question 15 times). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 You would repeat what you just did so yes do the same thing as your first pistol. Not all stages have good instructions but is there a need to spell everything out. A sweep is a sweep,behind the fence is behind the fence. Do we need to say stand both feet behind fence between post 1 and2. Do we need to define the word sweep. I'm sure when someone sweeps you with a gun you know. El Muerto Negro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 . Does it need to be this hard Cant ppl just follow directions. If it said to repeat it means just that repeat "to do the same way again" . If they say place hands on TOP of prop it does not mean you wrap them around it. If the directions say stand behind fence it means just that not 1 foot because then only part of you is behind fence. Writing stages is hard .Do we need to have 2 pages For something that can be said in a half. El Muerto Negro If I say "With first revolver engage P1 thru P3 2-1-2. Repeat with second revolver." Believe it or not there are TWO issues here. Does the word repeat mean JUST the 2-1-2 OR, does it mean if I shoot the first sequence from the left I have to start the second one on the left also? See where the word "REPEAT" has issues? Engage P1 thru P3 2-1-2 twice starting on either end for ten rounds. Engage P1 thru P3 2-1-2 twice starting on the RIGHT... If a stage simply says "From Position one (table) engage...blah...blah...blah then move to position two (fence one foot to the right of the table) and I can see all the targets, I will stand on the far right side of the table as I can and shoot from "position one" then take one step to "position two" I will do so because taking less steps = faster. If a stagewriter doesn't want that, then you should anticipate DGB's like me who twist the rules as far as they can in their ever-increasing attempts to out-game the competition (because we cain't out-shoot them anymore?!? (I guess all them stagewriters out there that say "one foot behind fence, both feet behind table, etc are because-a ME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lankyframe #44046 Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I've done my share of stage writing and try to make things as clear as possible but there's always someone who has a weird take on even the simplest instructions. Case in point, I remember once when the instructions clearly stated start on the left and someone came up and asked if he could start on the right And people wonder why some instructions are so long, if lawyer-speak wasn't invented before SASS it surely would be now. This is probably why so few people volunteer to write scenarios. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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