Marlin Buckhorn,SASS 51727 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I have a pair of OM Ruger Vaqueros in 44-40. One cylinder has .427 throats which I believe is fine. The other cylinder has .425 throats, not so fine. I have checked with 4 different gunsmiths, 3 Cowboy & my local smith. None have reamers to cut these throats. Do you know somebody who can ream the throats on 44-40 cylinders? Or do you know where I can reasonably rent a reamer for my local smith to use. Thanks in advance for your help, Marlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepnmud#33546 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Had good luck with Manson reamers for 45 Colt (4 revolvers)several years ago and sold reamers when done with them. Brownells may have a reamer for 44-40. http://www.mansonreamers.com/PriceList.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas B. Wolfson, SASS #11104 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Actually, neither is fine. Those pistols were manufactured using 44mag barrels which are .429. You do not want to squeeze the bullet down below the bore diameter. I have owned several pairs of these pistols. I used a very good machine shop that had a computerized cylinder honing machine. I had the throats opened up to .4298 and used a .430 bullet. This worked out very well and all of the pistols shot both smokeless and BP very well with excellent accuracy. Just my nickels worth. Chas B. Wolfson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Haller Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Howdy! The above pard is correct; Ruger used .429 barrels in their 44-40s (same as for their 44 mag). (This isn't unusual nowadays as Uberti does the same.) Both your cylinders need fixing. Send the pistols to Ruger and they'll fix the cylinder throats for free; that's what they did for me. My cost was shipping to them (they picked up the return shipping). Give them a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remo, SASS #17644 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Please go to http://www.cylindersmith.com That will take care of all your problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Red Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 SJ is right on the mark..I sent mine to Ruger, they know about this one, although some years old now. If you send them to Ruger, at No cost to you except for shipping to them. Be sure you have all the bells and whistles taken out of your pistols...If you don't they send it back to you factory stock and all your spings and such will never be heard of again. Just my two cents... TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 All of my 44's, 44-40 & 44 special's have had the Cylinder throats finish reamed to .430". You will be surprised how much better they shoot and perform, it is amazing. Accuracy improved also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairshake Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 That is not the correct size for 44-40 that Wolfson posted. The 44-40 cartridge was designed to shoot a .427 bullet. Ruger and Marlin decided on their own to make the 44-40 the same size as the 44 magnum so that you could fire all the bullets as the 44magnum and special. The early 44-40 made by Winchester and Colt had barrels and cylinders with .425 cylinders and barrels. The Ideal tools that were made in the 1880's will drop .425 bullets and have .425 bullet sizing holes in the handles of the tools. Some Colts would have cylinders of .429 or .430 and barrels with .425 or .426 barrels. This made them wall hangers. I have 2 USFA revolvers,1873 lever action,1892 lever and a Birdshead grip 3 1/2 bbl revolver, all of these are in 44-40 and each one slugs out at .427. I have casted my own bullets for many years and shoot mostly .429 sized bullets in all the guns. They all will shoot to POA and a miss is my fault and not the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 It don't matter what Colt or Winchester did back in the day. Your barrels govern, and your throats need to be right for the .429 barrels. Cylindersmith or Ruger..... and use .430 bullets same as .44 manglem. What you have now is the result of Ruger using a reamer too many times, and it was worn undersize. (my .45s were like that, all tight throated) I agree you can get by with the .427 or .4275, but .429 is better, much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrunner joe #17093 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Ruger cut my for FREE to .429 but the bbl is.430 they work fine with .427 to .429 lead bullets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrunner joe #17093 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Ruger cut my 44-40 OMV for FREE to .429 but the bbl is.430 they work fine with .427 to .429 lead bullets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Marlin - sent you a PM CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairshake Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 AJ, I am so happy that you took the time to let me know that history does not matter. I have several years of training in several firearms schools including Ruger. I was a instructor and armorer. I was just trying to point out that the correct size for the 44-40 cartridge is .427 and not .430 as was posted. If you want to match credentials in the firearms field I will be more than happy to do so. If someone was to post the incorrect information about your 45 Cowboy round you would be all over it. Nothing is wrong with giving a back ground on a cartridge that is being used by a lot of people. It is some new information that you posted in your snide way. I never knew that each gun was different from the other. I have been under the impression they were all alike. I have been in up state New York twice and met some nice people, not like I was told that they were all rude and not friendly to strangers. You might want to work on your people skills a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I can see where an accurate history on a gun the op doesn't own will be real helpful ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 AJ, I am so happy that you took the time to let me know that history does not matter. I have several years of training in several firearms schools including Ruger. I was a instructor and armorer. I was just trying to point out that the correct size for the 44-40 cartridge is .427 and not .430 as was posted. If you want to match credentials in the firearms field I will be more than happy to do so. If someone was to post the incorrect information about your 45 Cowboy round you would be all over it. Nothing is wrong with giving a back ground on a cartridge that is being used by a lot of people. It is some new information that you posted in your snide way. I never knew that each gun was different from the other. I have been under the impression they were all alike. I have been in up state New York twice and met some nice people, not like I was told that they were all rude and not friendly to strangers. You might want to work on your people skills a little. Pard, don't get yer knickers in a twist. It would be nice if Ruger made a .44-40 with a proper barrel diameter, but they didn't. Sooooo, since it would be cost-prohibitive to replace the barrel with a proper historically accurate pipe, the only thing that matters in the real, steel and lead world of shooting is how to make em shoot. Asking a Ruger to shoot like it had a .427 bore is barking at the moon. Fixing the throats so it will shoot .430 bullets well WORKS, so history be damned...... Historically .45 Colts had larger bores too. Some makers even used .451 bores with historically correct .454 throats. That worked about like a lead blimp..... Ruger chose to go .451 for both bore and throats and shazaam, they shoot, history be damned. We're quite friendly up here, but like many the ignorant (friendly) redneck, I don't mince words and bark at the moon wishing for the silly when a real fix stares me in the face. Feel free to belly ache at your guns, I fix mine so they shoot. PS, the simple, elegant solution often eludes the fact-bound. The other day, while in VT, somebody told me I had a headlight out on my van. It uses the old sealed beam kind, and the person who told me the headlight was out went on to tell me where, on a Sunday, one of the now hard to find rectangular sealed beam lights might be found. While he was still talking, I turned the lights on, went to the front of the van, and rapped on the unlit light, a single hard rap with my knuckles. It lit and has stayed lit so far. Simple, elegant solution...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Howdy, Pards, Let me wade in here... AJ, Ruger used the same barrels for the .44-40's (no longer in production) as for the .44 Mangle-em for the simple reason that is cut the cost of manufacturing. Nothing wrong with that. Where they screwed up initially was in following the SAAMI spec for the .44-40 bullet diameter, which specifies .427+.000,-.003" or .424-.427", to determine the diameter of the cylinder throats. Why they would do that with .429-.430" barrels I cannot fathom, but they did. The resultant throat diameters were .425" for most of the #55-XXXXX and at least half of the 56-XXXXX Old Model Vaqueros. After about a year-and-a-half of bad press from a number of gun writers, plus a similar time-frame of complaints from Your Obdt Servant, and the fact that the chambers themselves were not consistantly reamed, they finally fixed the chamber problems and eventually went to .430" throats...shortly before discontinuing that cartridge altogether. In point of fact, Colt's was guilty of similar lack of integration in some of their original Frontier Six Shooters! I measured on cylinder that had .4245" throats and the barrel was a "true" .427". The .45 LC guns, OTOH almost universally have had considerably oversized throats. There are two basic solutions to the undersized throats in the Rugers (I wouldn't do this in the Colt's or clones): One is to have the throats reamed out or the cylinders replaced. The second is to shoot .430" hard-cast commercial bullets (BHN 17-22) in the .425" throats. DO NOT do this with JACKETED BULLETS, HOWEVER! The harder bullets do squeeze down, but apparently pop back out due to the short dwell time moving through the constriction. I have matched OM Vaqueros with .425" throats in both, but with the larger chambers, so I can load .430" bullets in Winchester brass (use a .44 Magnum explander plug, please), and get 1-5/8" groups at 25 yds (off the bench and when my tired old eyes are co-operating)! Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your obedient servant, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Howdy, Pards, Let me wade in here... AJ, Ruger used the same barrels for the .44-40's (no longer in production) as for the .44 Mangle-em for the simple reason that is cut the cost of manufacturing. Nothing wrong with that. Where they screwed up initially was in following the SAAMI spec for the .44-40 bullet diameter, which specifies .427+.000,-.003" or .424-.427", to determine the diameter of the cylinder throats. Why they would do that with .429-.430" barrels I cannot fathom, but they did. The resultant throat diameters were .425" for most of the #55-XXXXX and at least half of the 56-XXXXX Old Model Vaqueros. After about a year-and-a-half of bad press from a number of gun writers, plus a similar time-frame of complaints from Your Obdt Servant, and the fact that the chambers themselves were not consistantly reamed, they finally fixed the chamber problems and eventually went to .430" throats...shortly before discontinuing that cartridge altogether. In point of fact, Colt's was guilty of similar lack of integration in some of their original Frontier Six Shooters! I measured on cylinder that had .4245" throats and the barrel was a "true" .427". The .45 LC guns, OTOH almost universally have had considerably oversized throats. There are two basic solutions to the undersized throats in the Rugers (I wouldn't do this in the Colt's or clones): One is to have the throats reamed out or the cylinders replaced. The second is to shoot .430" hard-cast commercial bullets (BHN 17-22) in the .425" throats. DO NOT do this with JACKETED BULLETS, HOWEVER! The harder bullets do squeeze down, but apparently pop back out due to the short dwell time moving through the constriction. I have matched OM Vaqueros with .425" throats in both, but with the larger chambers, so I can load .430" bullets in Winchester brass (use a .44 Magnum explander plug, please), and get 1-5/8" groups at 25 yds (off the bench and when my tired old eyes are co-operating)! Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your obedient servant, A good friend of mine had a "REAL" Colt SAA of post WWII manufacture in .45 with the "huge throat" problem. You could toss a cat through the throats and it would ONLY shoot with loads about hot enough to take it apart. I had a .45 Colt Virginian Dragoon the same way. It leaded up so bad it was awful unless shot hell for leather. The ONLY accurate loads I ever fired through it were 260gr JHPs (the old heavy jacket Speer bullet) atop a huge dose of 2400. So Ruger was in good company being stupid. At least they tried to fix it. Similarly, one of our pards who was a Ruger engineer FINALLY got em to stop "gang reaming" the cylinders with a machine using 6 reamers instead of one reamer for all six chambers in the cylinder. Once upon a time, gang reaming meant ya might have one throat .002 bigger or smaller than the rest. That won't EVER give ya a revolver that groups. My .45 Colt BH of 90's production was that way. 2 of 6 throats REALLY tight. I polished them until all six were equal, still a little tight, but equal, and it shoots one-hole groups now. The thing of it is, tight throats can be fixed, oversized and ya got yerself a good blank gun..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backshootin beauford mcgee Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Howdy, Pards, Let me wade in here... AJ, Ruger used the same barrels for the .44-40's (no longer in production) as for the .44 Mangle-em for the simple reason that is cut the cost of manufacturing. Nothing wrong with that. Where they screwed up initially was in following the SAAMI spec for the .44-40 bullet diameter, which specifies .427+.000,-.003" or .424-.427", to determine the diameter of the cylinder throats. Why they would do that with .429-.430" barrels I cannot fathom, but they did. The resultant throat diameters were .425" for most of the #55-XXXXX and at least half of the 56-XXXXX Old Model Vaqueros. After about a year-and-a-half of bad press from a number of gun writers, plus a similar time-frame of complaints from Your Obdt Servant, and the fact that the chambers themselves were not consistantly reamed, they finally fixed the chamber problems and eventually went to .430" throats...shortly before discontinuing that cartridge altogether. In point of fact, Colt's was guilty of similar lack of integration in some of their original Frontier Six Shooters! I measured on cylinder that had .4245" throats and the barrel was a "true" .427". The .45 LC guns, OTOH almost universally have had considerably oversized throats. There are two basic solutions to the undersized throats in the Rugers (I wouldn't do this in the Colt's or clones): One is to have the throats reamed out or the cylinders replaced. The second is to shoot .430" hard-cast commercial bullets (BHN 17-22) in the .425" throats. DO NOT do this with JACKETED BULLETS, HOWEVER! The harder bullets do squeeze down, but apparently pop back out due to the short dwell time moving through the constriction. I have matched OM Vaqueros with .425" throats in both, but with the larger chambers, so I can load .430" bullets in Winchester brass (use a .44 Magnum explander plug, please), and get 1-5/8" groups at 25 yds (off the bench and when my tired old eyes are co-operating)! Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your obedient servant, this is great info --- thank you! I have one of the rugers. Called them about it and they said send it in, but I have not yet. I tried .427 and .428 leads and got good accuracy at cas range with both. The .428's shoot accurate in my 92 also, so I think I have a solution, but I may send it in for the repair at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [snip for bandwidth.] Similarly, one of our pards who was a Ruger engineer FINALLY got em to stop "gang reaming" the cylinders with a machine using 6 reamers instead of one reamer for all six chambers in the cylinder. Once upon a time, gang reaming meant ya might have one throat .002 bigger or smaller than the rest. That won't EVER give ya a revolver that groups. My .45 Colt BH of 90's production was that way. 2 of 6 throats REALLY tight. I polished them until all six were equal, still a little tight, but equal, and it shoots one-hole groups now. The thing of it is, tight throats can be fixed, oversized and ya got yerself a good blank gun..... And that was the other problem with my #55-XXXXX Old Model Vaquero in .44-40. Some of the chambers would accept .430" bulleted rounds, but others would not! Obviously, they were gang-milled. The replacement cylinder was right...except for the .425" throats. It is really too bad that the New Model Vaqueros are made with the chamber index circle smaller than a Colt's SA. Because of that, they can't easily be made in .44-40, though they are making .44 Specials. The reason for the .45 LC being set up the way they are is so the design margins are equal to the Old Model Vaqueros, although Ruger will tell you NOT to load beyond the SAAMI standard for the .45 LC. Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your Pard, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Gang Milled? OK, I have a question about that. Are we talking about one milling head that has six reamers all going into the chambers at once? I have heard about this, but frankly, I am a little bit doubtful it is possible. I am trying to picture a tooling head that can house six reamers, all of them spinning, stuffed into a diameter as small as a .45 cylinder. I would like to see that. I have heard this referred to on the CAS City forum, and I keep asking the question, but I get no answer. Are we talking about a Ruger employee who used to live in NH and the last name of his alias was the same as a certain lever gun? I knew him too. I would really like to get the low down on this multiple reamer cutter head, because I am having trouble picturing one with six cutters stuffed that close together. Private Message is OK if you don't want to publish an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Driftwood, back in '04 or 05, sitting at a table in the clubhouse in Keene, I asked our own Rusty Marlin about this when he was SA line engineer at Ruger. I had a .45 Colt BH with severely unequal throats that I'd corrected by polishing them until equal. I said "Can ya get Ruger to stop gang reaming the durn things?" assuming the only way the throats were so unequal is because they were not cut with the same reamer. Yep, that's how it was done. A geared head with multiple tool collets just like that which you may have seen used to "gang drill" bunches of holes in one shot was equipped with 6 reamers (and I'd assume a pilot used in the middle hole) and they'd ream the cylinder in one pass. The problem of course is even if they were all changed at once, (surely they were, I would think), the reamers will wear unevenly, reulting in mismatched hole sizes. He assures me that practice was done away with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Well thanks AJ. That is the first authoritative answer I have gotten to that question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sheriff Pack Wolf, SASS #31917 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Well you boys have me pondering my next move. Thanks also. I don't wear nickers and I am not an armorer or a fire arms instructor. I do have a couple of OM vaqueros in 44/40 that I picked up over a two year period back in 04. I shot classic with them for about 6 months and put them away. They never shot well and I just tried a little harder and did manage to shoot a match clean with them once. After reviewing this thread, I measured the barrels and cylinders and found that the barrels both were .426 and one cylinder was .427 and the other was .422. I am now interested in which is he best route to follow in getting these cylinders brought up to the best practical demensions. What is the best practical demension??? Sending them back to Ruger is an option, as well as sending them to a qualified gunsmith. My local smith is out of town for a month, so sending them to Ruger is a good option at this time. I spent an afternoon taking out the aftermarket springs and hammer/trigger assemblies and returning them to Ruger off the shelf specs. If I send them to a qualified smith, would I be more satisfied with the result? I have not dealt with Ruger in something like this. Thanks , Pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 SPW If BOTH barrels are 426, and one of the corresponding cylinders has 427 throats, leave THAT cylinder alone. The cylinder that has .422 throats needs to be finish reamed to .4265 or .427 for optimum results and then you need to use bullets sized to .427 Coffinmaker PS: If your local smith is MIA, ship the cylinder to "Cylindersmith." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordnancebob Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 If one was to have his revolver throats opened to us a larger bullet. Can the same be done with a Win 73 easily? I like the idea of doing this but I don't wish to have separate revover and rifle ammo. I fear opening up the throat on a lever gun would be difficult unless a reamer is made to be pulled from the front with the barrel still breached up. Arte et Marte Ordnancebob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 If one was to have his revolver throats opened to us a larger bullet. Can the same be done with a Win 73 easily? I like the idea of doing this but I don't wish to have separate revover and rifle ammo. I fear opening up the throat on a lever gun would be difficult unless a reamer is made to be pulled from the front with the barrel still breached up. Arte et Marte Ordnancebob Howdy, Pard, I suppose it depends on how you define "easily". I'm no gunsmith, but I believe you'd need to pull the barrel, and run a reamer in from the breech end. Before you do that, however, I'd slug the barrel. If this is an original Winchester, you could be dealing with anything! Yes, I know Winchester was supposed to use .427" for the groove diameters, but I've seen them run as high as .434", and there was almost NO wear on the inside! Probably one of the first barrels rifled with a new cutter in the machine. Not much you can do with a barrel like that except reline it or shoot BP with hollowbase bullets cast dead soft. Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your Pard, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordnancebob Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Howdy, Pard, I suppose it depends on how you define "easily". I'm no gunsmith, but I believe you'd need to pull the barrel, and run a reamer in from the breech end. Before you do that, however, I'd slug the barrel. If this is an original Winchester, you could be dealing with anything! Yes, I know Winchester was supposed to use .427" for the groove diameters, but I've seen them run as high as .434", and there was almost NO wear on the inside! Probably one of the first barrels rifled with a new cutter in the machine. Not much you can do with a barrel like that except reline it or shoot BP with hollowbase bullets cast dead soft. Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your Pard, Thinking Uberti 73. Can the barrel be removed without removing the mag tube?. Octagon barrel. I like the idea of .429" bullets for accuracy, but I fear opening revover throats is one thing ,the rifle completely another. Arte et Marte Ordnancebob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Haller Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Howdy Sheriff, You had both Ruger barrels come out at .426? That's the first I've heard on Rugers. To my knowledge, all barrels were .429; the same barrels they used for their 44 magnums. I'd send both guns back to Ruger and have them fix them, especially if they need new barrels as well as cylinders reemed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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