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Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L

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Creativity Crap!

 

We have shooters' choice as to gun order, window, starting on either end ... You can get creative there.

 

Our sweeps have definitions. You all have heard some of them, except maybe some of the new folks. If you are told to shoot a Progressive Sweep, 1-2-2-3-3-3-4-4-4-4, you do not shoot 2-2-3-3-3-1-1-4-4-4-4. Same goes with a sweep. It is 1-2-3-4-5 or 1-2-3-1-2...depending on the number of targets. If no direction is specified, you can start on either end.

 

Recently, I heard about a scenario called for DT alternate for 10. Shooter said, "So, that means I can shoot 1-1-1-1-1 then alternate to 2-2-2-2-2. By the arguments I've read here, that would be okay with some of you. Well, it is not okay with me. Since I'm not allowed to slap you upside the head Gibbs style, I will tell the TO you got a P.

 

Some of you seem to have your fun by tossing all the norms out the window. Why would you do that, especially if it is not more efficient? To yank folks chains. To feed your ego by getting your way and outsmarting others who stick to the norm. You can argue there is no advantage so no SOG penalty.

 

I will stop now as the steam coming out my ears is fogging my glasses.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:

 

PS Maybe when some of you have been around long enough, you will learn the norms (Charlie). :P

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"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them."

Henry David Thoreau

 

I suspect Charlie will still have a song left but he will have left many more in this world.

 

The norm is the middle of the bell curve. I find life more fun on the edge!

 

Your mileage may vary. And that is good too!

 

Very Best Regards,

Rod Rubert

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/henrydavid132662.html#ixzz1OE5jKMTR

 

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:

 

PS Maybe when some of you have been around long enough, you will learn the norms (Charlie). :P

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So if I am going FROM Los Angeles TO Kansas City I can start in Denver, go thru Limon, Salina, Topeka, Kansas City the jump back to Los Angeles?

 

Remind me not to travel with some of you folks. :D

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"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them."

Henry David Thoreau

 

I suspect Charlie will still have a song left but he will have left many more in this world.

 

The norm is the middle of the bell curve. I find life more fun on the edge!

 

Your mileage may vary. And that is good too!

 

Very Best Regards,

Rod Rubert

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/henrydavid132662.html#ixzz1OE5jKMTR

Just to be clear, I didn't mean Phantom. I meant Chicamauga Charlie who insulted Grizzley Dave.

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So if I am going FROM Los Angeles TO Kansas City I can start in Denver, go thru Limon, Salina, Topeka, Kansas City the jump back to Los Angeles?

 

 

Let's use your example, because it actually is perfect.

 

If I say "Drive across the US east to west" and you start in St Louis MO, drive to to LA, fly to New York and then drive from New York back to St Louis.

At the end of the trip - You have satisfied the conditions and I defy anyone to say you did not drive across the US east to west.

 

Just like the flight from LA to New York is immaterial to the conditions of the request - so is the movement of the gun.

Driving is not flying and gun movement is NOT rounds striking targets.

Drive across the US - east to west.

St. Louis - Las Vegas - Los Angeles - New York - Indianapolis

accomplished.

 

Sweep five targets from either direction. (in this case, right to left)

T3 - T2 - T1 - T5 - T4

accomplished.

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Allie, i dont know why you feel compelled to defend another man, he did fine on his own, and it was not meant as an insult anyway. you have blown this thread way way off base and i'm sorry your glasses are steaming. it is really quite simple; 10 rounds, five targets, shoot a continuous sweep, please explain to me how you would do that. would you run to the next bay looking for 5 more targets or would you shoot 1234512345? is going from 5 to 1 coninuing the sweep or not?

have a better day.

CC

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Let's use your example, because it actually is perfect.

 

If I say "Drive across the US east to west" and you start in St Louis MO, drive to to LA, fly to New York and then drive from New York back to St Louis.

At the end of the trip - You have satisfied the conditions and I defy anyone to say you did not drive across the US east to west.

 

Just like the flight from LA to New York is immaterial to the conditions of the request - so is the movement of the gun.

Driving is not flying and gun movement is NOT rounds striking targets.

Drive across the US - east to west.

St. Louis - Las Vegas - Los Angeles - New York - Indianapolis

accomplished.

 

Sweep five targets from either direction. (in this case, right to left)

T3 - T2 - T1 - T5 - T4

accomplished.

 

Creeker I understand your example as stated. However, I believe that in common usage FROM is most often associated with a starting point, an origin. And TO is associated with a destination or ending point. I could go on, but that is enough to articulate my point.

 

If we disagree, that's fine. But for the case of cowboy shooting if you write a stage like that please make sure the posse marshals are clear on what is, and is not allowed and have them pass it along to the posses so that all can have the same options when they shoot it.

 

Grizz

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So if I am going FROM Los Angeles TO Kansas City I can start in Denver, go thru Limon, Salina, Topeka, Kansas City the jump back to Los Angeles?

No, you've shot your five cities and you have no ammo left to get to Los Angeles.

Or you've loaded six rounds (cause ya want ta shoot your way to LA) and ya get a SDQ for hammer down on a live round.

 

BH ;)

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Allie, i dont know why you feel compelled to defend another man, he did fine on his own, and it was not meant as an insult anyway. you have blown this thread way way off base and i'm sorry your glasses are steaming. it is really quite simple; 10 rounds, five targets, shoot a continuous sweep, please explain to me how you would do that. would you run to the next bay looking for 5 more targets or would you shoot 1234512345? is going from 5 to 1 coninuing the sweep or not?

have a better day.

CC

Charlie,

 

I have two reasons for my PS. Dave is my friend. I disagreed with your post referring to him.

 

Off topic? I was discussing sweeps. That's way closer to the topic than travel through the US. I am not fond of analogies. (Sorry, Dave.)

 

Yes, that is how a 10 shot sweep would be done. We are discussing a five shot sweep. By looking at your one example, it would be 12345.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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BH, I was wondering if anyone would notice I had too many cities :D

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BH, I was wondering if anyone would notice I had too many cities

 

The bad part is Now your stuck in Kansas City and a Dang Tornado'

s a coming.

 

BH :lol:

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Let's use your example, because it actually is perfect.

 

If I say "Drive across the US east to west" and you start in St Louis MO, drive to to LA, fly to New York and then drive from New York back to St Louis.

At the end of the trip - You have satisfied the conditions and I defy anyone to say you did not drive across the US east to west.

 

Just like the flight from LA to New York is immaterial to the conditions of the request - so is the movement of the gun.

Driving is not flying and gun movement is NOT rounds striking targets.

Drive across the US - east to west.

St. Louis - Las Vegas - Los Angeles - New York - Indianapolis

accomplished.

 

Sweep five targets from either direction. (in this case, right to left)

T3 - T2 - T1 - T5 - T4

accomplished.

 

Oh dear Lord, are you serious or are you just practing to be a lawyer???

 

Fine, let's use your phrase "rounds striking targets". In a right to left sweep, each succesive round is supposed to strike the target to the left of the previous strike. The round that struck T5 was not, it was to the right of T1.

 

P.S. You get a P for flying when the stage instructions specifially tell you to drive. ;)

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:blink: I'm really surprized this thread has gone so far,sweep targets from either direction if you started on any target but T1 or T5 it would be a P,for one thing if you shot T3 T4 T5 T1 T2 you just turned it into two sweeps.Anyway anybody wanting to shoot to be "different" probaly should ask Posse Marshal.

 

I like it when stages can be shot differently or somethings can be left to interpertation but this is not one of them.

 

 

Regards AO

 

 

PS Creeker your example you swept from two directions P,your eastward trip example you made two separate eastward trips.

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[

Hey Colt

 

I was thinking about stealing this stage for today's Stage Robbers match.

 

On second thought I still haven't been forgiven for the Bear Butte sweep from last year.

 

Note: That sweep is Bear Buttes's SASS number 11231 if I remember correctly.

 

For those of you who know Bear he enjoyed all the complaining and wondered why there were so many P's.

 

OK..the previous stage from the left was double tap,single tap and double tap. 11-2-33

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Oh dear Lord, are you serious or are you just practing to be a lawyer???

 

Fine, let's use your phrase "rounds striking targets". In a right to left sweep, each succesive round is supposed to strike the target to the left of the previous strike. The round that struck T5 was not, it was to the right of T1.

 

P.S. You get a P for flying when the stage instructions specifially tell you to drive. ;)

Actually T5 is both Left and Right of T1, the difference is only the distance. As far as I know is that the globe we all live on is still round. I.e. 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - long distance - 5 is actually a "sweep" in "either" direction, chosen direction is left. In common mind a sweep in either direction starts in either end of the targets, i.e. T1 or T5, but without specifically defining the sweep any sweep goes as long as the five targets is struck once in a continious order as already mentioned. The difference would a non continiuos order like 4-3-5-2-1. Either direction implies a continious order in either left or right direction.

 

If stage description implies either left or right direction starting on the first or last target it should say so, if it implies any direction and any order, it should say so. When the shooter may decide and the RO's (1 TO and 3 Spotters) is uncertain, a benefit of a doubth applies.

 

My call in this matter is, as long as all targets are struck, Clean. I do not see any procedural error.

 

I actually love the any order any target specific number of hits, it gives my the opportunity to mess with spotters head...

I probably would have gone shooting something like this...

1(LP)-5(RP)-2(LP)-5(RP)-3(LP)-5(RP)-4(LP)-5(RP)-2(LP)-5(LP)-4®-3®-4®-3®-4®-5®-4®-3®-2®-1®

(LP) = Left Pistol

(RP) = Right Pistol

® = Rifle

And no-one could have given me a P or a Miss as long as I hit all targets...

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...I actually love the any order any target specific number of hits, it gives my the opportunity to mess with spotters head...

Hello Matt,

 

I enjoy those stages now and then. But, not for the same reason as you. That would have never occurred to me. :blink: In fact, it saddens me to hear such a reason for finding joy in something. :(

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Well, it's not an advantage for me shooting in a "strange" order. But on the other hand, I'm not called crazy for nothing... *smiles

 

IMHO that the spotters should pay attention, messing with their heads is more of a bonus... :lol:

And don't get me wrong, I'm not evilish minded. I shoot for fun, and fun indeed it goes when they try to figure out why in the heck I shot in that order.

And actually, if I shot FCGF on that stage in that order I actually would have the possibility to actually see every target as the smoke probably would have cleared out enough.

 

As long as I get a smile or a laugh I'm pleased... ;)

 

And as long we have fun, we're cowboy action shooting

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Well Matt,

 

If all are smiling :) at the "messing," I agree it may not be bad. Also, you live in a different country and norms there may be a bit different.

 

Messing among friends is one thing. However, I have had too many experiences with one individual who liked to mess with folks. He'd even stated it publically. He finally got himself banned from several SASS clubs for his actions. So, when I read your comment, I immediately thought of him. :(

 

I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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No worries, my messing usually mess up things for myself actually. But I still have fun...

 

Shooting on both sides of the pond are actually quite the same, a CAS match here is exactly as a CAS match in the states. In fact, we try to make Our matches as a perfect replica of "the real thing" possible, if a match in the states sets the norm as "the real deal".

 

What striked me last time I shot in the states is how similar cowboys and cowgirls are around the world.

 

The scenario were four shotgun targets, four pistol targets, and four rifle targets. The Shotgun targets were supposed to be shot two in the baginning of the stage, and two at the end of the stage. In between the two shotgun strings there were first a "progressive sweep" with the pistols on the four pistol targets, and then a progressive sweep with the rifle. There were pretty much the same amounth of solutions shooting the pistols as there were shooters.

 

"Well, I shoot P1, then P2, P2, and then P3 and P3, switch guns and then I shoot P3, and finally I empty the gun on the last target."

 

"Ain't it 1-2-2 on 1 through 3, then I shoot 1-4 och target 3 and 4."

 

"As a GF I'd shoot T1 with my left gun and T2 with my second one, Then I shoot T2 and T3, Then it's just double on T3 and two doubles on T4"

 

"How would you shoot it?"

 

"No, I would count the shots like 1, 1-2, 1-2-3, 1-2-3-4."

 

To get on to your thoughts about messing with friends. That ain't good. I never mess with friends, I usually treat friends as I would like them to treat me. If you act as an idiot, you'll be treated as one. And I'm to smart for that... ;) And shooting in an unconventional order, even if it's messy, can not be compared to mess with others.

 

Sorry all for getting out of topic a while...

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Just so everyone understands, Creeker and I are good pards. We shot together this morning and had a lot of fun as we always do. We did continute this discussion a small bit but laughed about it more than anything else. He still believes what he believes and I still know I'm right. Hope you all have a great weekend full of good shootin' and great friends. :FlagAm:

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Just so everyone understands, Creeker and I are good pards. We shot together this morning and had a lot of fun as we always do. We did continute this discussion a small bit but laughed about it more than anything else. He still believes what he believes and I still know I'm right. Hope you all have a great weekend full of good shootin' and great friends. :FlagAm:

 

Thanks for putting a positive note on this thread Philly. After all the nasty disagreement and personal swipes I was thinking of going out and ending it all but ............ I couldn't decide what end or where to start!!! :ph34r:;)

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Just so everyone understands, Creeker and I are good pards. We shot together this morning and had a lot of fun as we always do. We did continute this discussion a small bit but laughed about it more than anything else. He still believes what he believes and I still know I'm right. Hope you all have a great weekend full of good shootin' and great friends. :FlagAm:

Well that's the way it should be!!!

I never argue with people I don't like, I just don't think it's worth my time!!!!!!

I like most everyone on the wire, we chew the same dirt,but that don't mean I have to agree with them.

 

BH :D:P:D:P:D

sweep the five targets right to left starting on T4.

Creeker can do it!!

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Ok, PWB has given his "opinion" and unless that gets over-ruled by the Rules Committee or the WB, grin and bear it.

 

But, if it helps ya any, try remembering that for the most part the targets are stationary, movement applies to your gun and YOU. A "sweep" unless further defined, is a group of targets set up in sequence;

"from" denotes a starting point, as in I'm from NZ, it's a fixed, immutable point, just as most ya'll are from the USA, get used to it, for that also is an immutable fact; now, here's where it seems dicey, but in fact, is truly simple,

 

"either" means this'a one or that'a one and none of the other'ns; here is where we come to the tricky part,

 

"direction", 'cause it can have almost an infinite number of permutations, from left or right, top to bottom, down or up, south, north, east, west or points in between, why it can be designated as thisaway or thataway, and, lastly, it can describe movement.

 

Using the KISS theory,for the last five targets the stage writer said, " ...sweep the five targets from either direction." They didn't say usiny ANY sweep, or from anywhere, or in any direction. Thusly, if you have 5 targets laid out from left to right and you pick the "direction" you are going to start from, you've also picked the direcction your gun will be moving... since the directions say "sweep" as in singular, and "either" for direction, you can't do both, i.e., start at both ends or move in both directions. Other sweeps have definitions that allow for multiple movement directions, but, without that identifier, your options are cut dramatically.

 

So, for simplicity's sake I'll just use one example, you fill in your other choice and see if you can keep up; in choosing to start from the Left, you're also choosing to move to the Right. If you inadvertantly start on the target to the right of left, you've earned the "P", as you can no longer continue movement to the Right without sweeping the RO, spotters and rest of the posse to shoot that Left target, (do we remember the penalty for sweeping anyone with a loaded gun)? Arguin' the point, tryin' to get out of it, earns you additional title of "gamer". Arguin' past the forebearance of the RO, PM or MD might also earn you the SOG penalty.

 

Flame suit on. But, before ya do... I'll concede the point when targets are set in two or more rows, i.e.; two high and three low or 3 high, 2 middle, 1 low or if target distances would give the illusion of being in a circle, as then you gun movement could be described as a circle. But, that wasn't the impression given in the OP.

 

Oh yeah, two additional points, what YOUR club does is pretty much your business; but, you do your members and your club a huge dissservice when you vary from SASS rules by a wide margin; your members, when they do travel to other clubs and encounter rulings in accordance much more widely acceptance. And your club when you have visitors who will go back to their club and talk 'bout ya! Might not mean much today, but how 'bout 5 years down the road when new officers wanna have the State Championship, or maybe a Regional? What's your club's rep? (That last is rhetorical, need not answer).

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Howdy Colt,

The stage writer called for a sweep from either end, she shot the targets out of order. A P is or was in order

 

Jingles

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Have ye not been paying attention? The stage description said nothing of the sort. Please refer to the sections of the original post below; "In any combination and in any order" further down, "With last 5 rounds sweep targets from either direction."

 

It all boils down to interpetation of a poorly worded stage. Agruments can be made for EITHER position, give the shooter a P for not sweeping the targets in order from left to right or right to left or, as the TO did, NOT award a P because the stage description CLEARLY says any order and "Sweep" doesn't always mean from the end targets. If so then why would "any order" apply ONLY to the first fifteen shots and not to the last?

 

And just WHY does a "Sweep" ALWAYS mean start on the end and go left/right? I've seen PLENTY of stages worded thusly; "Sweep the five plates with one round each any order." Or, Sweep the plates 2-1-2 starting on any end." Or, "Sweep the plates 2-3-3-2 in any order."

 

 

 

Howdy Colt,

The stage writer called for a sweep from either end, she shot the targets out of order. A P is or was in order

 

Jingles

 

 

...The relevant stage write-up was:

 

ATB shoot the rifle and pistols

in any combination and in any order, putting ONE

round on R/P 1, TWO rounds on R/P2, THREE

rounds on R/P3, FOUR rounds on R/P4, FIVE

rounds on R/P5. With last 5 rounds sweep targets

from either direction. Make rifle/pistols safe

 

I was the TO and helped a shooter through on this one. She used her rifle and then pistol to properly complete the first 15 rds. She used her second pistol for the sweep and before I could coach her shot the targets starting on R/P4, then R/P3, then R/P2, then R/P1. She was now hesitating and I had her swing over to shoot R/P5 which she did. No misses

 

Now since the instructions did not specifically say you had to shoot the sweep starting from the end but said sweep targets from either direction I did not give her a procedural and some felt it was since the sweep was not shot from the "end".

 

What say y'all??

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Howdy Colt,

The stage writer called for a sweep from either end, she shot the targets out of order. A P is or was in order

 

Jingles

 

No, a P is not in order. There is no "set", standard, or "stock" definition of a sweep. The last "sweep" here is ill-defined. Therefore and ergo she cannot be given a P. Just because in your mind the last sweep must be 12345 or 54321 does not make it so. Only if it was defined so in the stage instructions and it was not.

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Methinks more than one of you is confusing the instructions for the 1st 15 shots ("...in any combination and in any order...") and applying that phrase to the last five targets, without regard to the instructions for the final 5 shots, ("...sweep targets from either direction..."). Clearly two sets of instructions for the stage. The instructions for the last five rounds is clearly intended to provide a different sweep.

 

Unless target array is unusual, (information not received), a sweep is a sweep, not a sweep with a reverse...

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Methinks more than one of you is confusing the instructions for the 1st 15 shots ("...in any combination and in any order...") and applying that phrase to the last five targets, without regard to the instructions for the final 5 shots, ("...sweep targets from either direction..."). Clearly two sets of instructions for the stage. The instructions for the last five rounds is clearly intended to provide a different sweep.

 

Unless target array is unusual, (information not received), a sweep is a sweep, not a sweep with a reverse...

Me, Me!! I made that mistake!!!

 

I accept Palewolf's opinion - give the shooter a P (which they probably figured they had anyway) and go on! I know a sweep can start anywhere, but for a line of targets, unless stated in the instructions, they start on the end.

 

As Stan noted, such calls go to the Range Master who makes the call as best as they can.

 

I thought I made a mistake once. Now I know :D

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Me, Me!! I made that mistake!!!

I accept Palewolf's opinion - give the shooter a P (which they probably figured they had anyway) and go on! I know a sweep can start anywhere, but for a line of targets, unless stated in the instructions, they start on the end.

As Stan noted, such calls go to the Range Master who makes the call as best as they can.

I thought I made a mistake once. Now I know :D

S'alright there Marauder,

 

I made two mistakes one time... 1st doin' the thing wrong, then admittin' it! So I've now quit doublin' up on my mistakes! :) :)

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I did find something interesting in the Match Directors Guide Match Design booklet there is a passage number 3 under targets on page 4 that appears to suggest that the term sweep means a basic sweep meaning left to right or right to left.

 

 

 

 

3. Don’t “choreograph” the stage with complex target sequences.

Stay away from complex target engagement sequences.

Basic sweeps from left or right, single,

double, or triple taps, a “Nevada Sweep”

(left, center, right, center, left, or the oppo-

site) orders are acceptable. Target order

consistency within a stage will ease proce-

dural and spotting problems. Varying tar-

get order from stage to stage is acceptable,

will add to the personality of each stage,

and still demands the shooter pay attention

and think about what he/she is doing.

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Sounds like something else to be added to the stage conventions.

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We don't need any more conventions. Stage writers just need to specify what they expect the shooter to do.

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Geez, some people read ANYTHING into such simple words.....no wonder we gots so many rules!

 

I did find something interesting in the Match Directors Guide Match Design booklet there is a passage number 3 under targets on page 4 that appears to suggest that the term sweep means a basic sweep meaning left to right or right to left.

 

 

 

 

3. Don’t “choreograph” the stage with complex target sequences.

Stay away from complex target engagement sequences.

Basic sweeps from left or right, single,

double, or triple taps, a “Nevada Sweep”

(left, center, right, center, left, or the oppo-

site) orders are acceptable. Target order

consistency within a stage will ease proce-

dural and spotting problems. Varying tar-

get order from stage to stage is acceptable,

will add to the personality of each stage,

and still demands the shooter pay attention

and think about what he/she is doing.

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