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PascoePete

Need to convince my club that cowboy holsters are safe

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Help,

I belong to a very nice shooting club in California.

Members cannot use holsters and the designated holster lanes unless they take a certification class.

 

The class applies the 180 degree rule.

The leadership bends the rules a little to allow for holsters raked a little to the rear.

The rules allow for one holster only but do say that exceptions would be made for cowboy.

 

However holsters that do not cover the trigger and most of the guard are forbidden.

One certifier actually want to send me home:-) Fortunately I had a spare double action revolver and holster.

 

The designer of the regulations is reluctant to modify the rules but I'm told that it is possible if I can convince the "committee" and invest the many months of effort this might require.

 

In preparing for this I've learned that key members of the committee either do not know about cowbow shooting and have little interest or have tried and are seriously not impressed that is it a real sport.

 

So I have an up hill battle here.

I need to propose some acceptable rules and convince a bunch on unbelievers without offending anyone one the committee (they work hard on upkeeping the club).

 

What do you diplomats out there recommend?

Has anyone had this problem before?

 

Pascoe Pete

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Buy a holster that meets the certification class' rules or join a different club. Either course would be cheaper emotionally and probably financially than fighting even a winning campaign at your current club. You will probably end up making unnecessary enemies if you stand and fight. Sometimes you have to go along to get along. It is better to win over time than to lose all at once.

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Members cannot use holsters and the designated holster lanes unless they take a certification class.

 

I assume you're meaning shooters aren't allowed to do from-the-holster drills. I've heard of this. The thought is that, if allowed, you would be asking for an AD to happen.

 

 

However holsters that do not cover the trigger and most of the guard are forbidden.

 

So even those that are "certified" can't get their finger on the bang switch while the gun is holstered.

 

 

Couple of thoughts for you:

 

Provide a copy of the SASS handbook to the committee with the safety rules highlighted. Particularly the one about cocking a revolver before it reaches 45 degrees downrange. Also point out allowed holster cant.

 

Explain how a single action revolver works. It's obvious to us, but you'd be surprised how many range Rambos don't have a clue. This might help with the "holster has to cover the trigger guard" requirement.

 

Invite the committee members to a CAS match at another facility so they can observe.

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If you wouldn't mind, go to your profile and at least include a location town & state.

I know you said California. But California is a very big state.

 

With that little bit of information those on the wire can help direct you with information to your area.

 

I have been in a similar situation.

I went to another range that didn't have issues with cowboy action shooters and their gear.

 

Life's to short to try to educate people who don't want to learn.

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......

 

Couple of thoughts for you:

 

Provide a copy of the SASS handbook to the committee with the safety rules highlighted. Particularly the one about cocking a revolver before it reaches 45 degrees downrange. Also point out allowed holster cant.

 

Explain how a single action revolver works. It's obvious to us, but you'd be surprised how many range Rambos don't have a clue. This might help with the "holster has to cover the trigger guard" requirement.

 

Invite the committee members to a CAS match at another facility so they can observe.

 

That's a step in the right direction...

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Your battle will be around convincing them that there is a compelling difference between double action/semi-auto requirements and single action requirements. Unlike the handguns they are familiar with, the single action will not fire when the trigger is pulled. The hammer must be cocked before the handgun can discharge. It migh also help for them to know that the single actions will not be allowed to have a live round under the hammer while in the holster.

 

Determine the decision makers and approach them individually. If you can not make progress one on one then you have no hope in more formal sessions.

 

Good Luck,

BJT

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If you wouldn't mind, go to your profile and at least include a location town & state.

I know you said California. But California is a very big state.

 

With that little bit of information those on the wire can help direct you with information to your area.

 

I have been in a similar situation.

I went to another range that didn't have issues with cowboy action shooters and their gear.

 

Life's to short to try to educate people who don't want to learn.

 

Cliff

the Faultline guys are just south west of Hollister.

CC

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Be for real, at a gun club there will be at least a few who have not just landed. Your battlefield is on terribly disadvantageous ground, do not make Lees mistake by fighting on it. How pompous can we be, thinking that there would be an American gun club made up of gun people who have never seen or understand single actions and modern cowboy movie fast draw holsters? There are people out there who just do not like us and no matter how much we beg we will never be good enough to be their friends! Take a walk, in the end you will be happy you did.

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Unfortunately, I don't have any advice for you, just sympathy and wishes that you find someplace to shoot that is more reasonable.

I've run into that mentality locally and they're almost worse than the gun-grabbers. Just paper punchers mostly. Take the gun out of the safe and go to the range to brag about the guns you own. The only shooters at my club that promote shooting are the Cowboys and the Black Powder guys.

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I do not think it is an issue with the Faultline home range. They been shooting there more than 10 years.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Cliff

the Faultline guys are just south west of Hollister.

CC

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The designer of the regulations is reluctant to modify the rules

 

Alas, that's the case with a lot of gun clubs. You have an uphill battle. Good luck.

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Help,

I belong to a very nice shooting club in California.

Members cannot use holsters and the designated holster lanes unless they take a certification class.

 

The class applies the 180 degree rule.

The leadership bends the rules a little to allow for holsters raked a little to the rear.

The rules allow for one holster only but do say that exceptions would be made for cowboy.

 

However holsters that do not cover the trigger and most of the guard are forbidden.

One certifier actually want to send me home:-) Fortunately I had a spare double action revolver and holster.

 

The designer of the regulations is reluctant to modify the rules but I'm told that it is possible if I can convince the "committee" and invest the many months of effort this might require.

 

In preparing for this I've learned that key members of the committee either do not know about cowbow shooting and have little interest or have tried and are seriously not impressed that is it a real sport.

 

So I have an up hill battle here.

I need to propose some acceptable rules and convince a bunch on unbelievers without offending anyone one the committee (they work hard on upkeeping the club).

 

What do you diplomats out there recommend?

Has anyone had this problem before?

 

Pascoe Pete

 

Folks,

At the very least you are all making me feel better:-)

The advice not to to take this head on is good.

I have high regard for the folks on my club committee, they do so much volunteer work.

I've been a club member for probably 20 years but am still a newbie:-)

 

I wonder if there is a Charismatic SASS speaker locally to speak on the sport one meeting night.

Perhaps there is some recommended material I could distribute.

I'm off to an RO II class this week end so I'll see if I can find some one.

 

Some single action pistol education might be an idea.

The current rules favor and are even bent to favor autos...Action Pistol is a club event now.

I did notice that when I produced a double action revolver and holster that it produced a lot of interest so there might be an angle there.

 

I looked over the rule book. The wild bunch has good information on 45 degree cocking but the standard hand book is silent.

 

I was thinking of adding a rule adding SASS membership as a requirement but it seems to be too elitist to me.

 

Perhaps I could ty to drum up interest by offering a SASS demonstration event.

A couple of folks all decked out showing how much fun it is.

 

I appreciate the tip on getting to the decisions makers.

I think they'd like to hear from a very charming, very proficient, SASS safety expert...who was perhaps a player in "friends of the NRA".

 

Does SASS have any NRA support?

 

Lots of questions I know.

 

Pascoe Pete

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Pickup up the committee and pay for them to shoot (and provide firearms and ammo) a SASS match at another club .

 

On the way home ask if they think it would increase "their" club's revenue if they'd host SASS matches?

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I do not think it is an issue with the Faultline home range. They been shooting there more than 10 years.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Correct. Faultline is cool.

This is a local "Santa Cruz" club issue.

I belong to 4 clubs. 2 are cowboy action, one is public league.

The issue here is a very nice, private club that is very conservative.

 

It sounds odd but there was a time when a lot of clubs felt that cowboy action was not very proper and were resistant.

 

Pascoe Pete

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Pickup up the committee and pay for them to shoot a SASS match at another club .

 

On the way home ask if they think it would increase "their" club's revenue if they'd host SASS matches?

 

I did think that that would be a good approach.

I was told that the committee thinking is that the club has enough money and too many members:-)

But impressing them might work.

Take them out, shoot a match, buy lunch...

 

I like this idea. Fun, educationuational.

Maybe the unimpressed guy had a bad experience and this could reverse the situation.

This is positive.

 

Pascoe Pete

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My indoor club only allows law enforcement to draw from any holster. I practice cowboy with my two guns on the loading shelf in front of me. This has actually come in handy when we have to pickup shortguns off a table and return them to the start position when done. Having two guns loaded at one time still causes some raised eyebrows. So do my .32WCF and .38WCF rounds in a non-bottlenosed environment. I just wait to practice holster work at home while dry-firing.

It aint perfect but you know how it is. You make do with things the best as possible. And no, I would not invite some of them to any cowboy action event due to ultra-egos and a lack of common sense. I left that behind at other disciplines of competitive shooting.

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I signed up for a CCW class. I could shoot practically any kind of gun I wanted to bring as long as I had a holster that would cover the trigger guard. The only "compliant" holster I had was for my 1911 which I decided not to shoot.

 

Because my Ruger NV's are the guns I shoot the most at present, I thought about shooting them just for the heck of it (might even recruit some new cowboy shooters out of the class). I considered trying to talk the instructor into making an exception to the rule that was probably geared towards striker fired semiautos.

 

I decided not to try. It seemed rude for me to show up and start asking for special favors and coming across as a show-off with revolvers (well, maybe one revolver) that would slow down the line loading and unloading. That wasn't the impression I wanted to give of a cowboy shooter.

 

I shot the course with a borrowed Smith M&P (thanks, Hondo) in a compliant holster. Never could figure out how to cock it with my left thumb, though.

 

This was a one-time class and not a club where I would be shooting on a regular basis so it's not the same as the OP's situation.

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Oh what the heck, might as well chime in here, I can't help myself...

 

BE REALISTIC - Make the best pitch you can, but don't be too disappointed if you get shot down.

 

BE SPECIFIC - A written proposal of what you would like, along with documentation to back up your arguments.

 

BE RESPECTFUL - You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. Suggest, don't demand.

 

BE PREPARED - If they offer you an opportunity to present something, go with all your ducks in a row, take holsters, take videos, take rule books, take experts. Have an outline and work from it. But, don't get caught providing so much information that it just puts them to sleep.

 

And with that last thought, I guess I'd better be done :D

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Don't forget both RO manuals and the match admin guide and the other Match admin book. Take you holster and a firearm that is unloaded and show them and let them try it them selves. Education though experience will win over throwing several manuals at them. Outline how we go throw th eloading process , then called to the line, fire the course of fire and then unload all under direct supervision.

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Some single action pistol education might be an idea.

The current rules favor and are even bent to favor autos...Action Pistol is a club event now.

I did notice that when I produced a double action revolver and holster that it produced a lot of interest so there might be an angle there.

 

 

If you really want to turn heads, break out one of these: Dragoon With Detachable Stock , that will turn heads every time. ;)

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This is not a Faultline Issue. Pascoe Pete, yes is a member of our Club, but he is referring to some Club other than Faultline. Faultline Shootist Society is a SASS affilated club and is definately a Cowboy Action Shooting Club. :excl:

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Good luck getting the rules changed.

 

Otherwise, you have an excuse to buy another pair of holsters.

 

:lol:

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There was a city range around the hill from me that I loved because it was close and outdoors. The range had a rule you could not fire any weapon at less than one second per round. I shot paper and practiced the draw on my pistols there all the time. I could paper reloads within ten minutes of making them up and I rue the day it was closed to the public. If I lived close to your club I would make up some holsters that fit their rule book. If I took an active role in supporting the club through time and or money, I would ask for a little sas respect.

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The "cover the triggerguard rule" doesn't make sense with SA wheelguns. With the hammer down, trigger contact cannot set the gun off - period, end of discussion.

 

I carry a Ruger NewVaq on the street in a holster of my own design.

 

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/5224220591_4a1c1e0809_b.jpg

 

You need to explain that you either have a transfer bar ignition (Ruger, Beretta Stampede or similar) or if you're carrying with traditional innards, you've got the hammer down on an empty chamber. That's the safety that matters with an SA, not the covered triggerguard.

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I looked over the rule book. The wild bunch has good information on 45 degree cocking but the standard hand book is silent.

 

You're right. It's in the RO1 book on page 17.

 

When drawing a revolver from its holster, the revolver shall not be cocked until it is at a 45°

angle down range. (Minor Safety Violation)

 

And the Pocket RO card on page 29.

 

(Insert argument here for ONE rule book.)

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I believe that Matthew Duncan and Grizzly Dave have excellent suggestions. But, I'd do them in reverse order of how they're posted. Present your proposed rule change, and at the end, suggest before they decide, to visit a SASS club and observe.

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Just FYI because you asked - YEP! SASS has plenty of support from the NRA. I believe the main speaker for at least the past two SASS conventions has been the president of the NRA (I believe they were the current presidents - I know I enjoyed the speeches). Also, I know that SASS sets up a booth at the NRA conventions. Maybe one of your NRA reps could come help you out.... :)

 

Good Luck!!! It's always a shame to see a good shooting club wasting away without a cowboy group. :)

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Pete, I know you would be welcome to shoot with the Sunnyvale Regulators on the first and third Mondays, check out the Sunnyvale Rod and Gun website. Sunnyvale does not allow holsters accept uniformed LEOs during public range hours, but during member range hours cowboy and modern action shooters frequently set up at the range for working from the holster. Member hours at the range can be nice and quiet. Not sure if setting up a cowboy range day might be a good argument to make. Who knows I'm pretty new to the club, you could be a regular at Sunnyvale for all I know.

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