When not to toast the Queen

[Apache Hawk 60642]

Dat's one way to burn a toast !!!!

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

The point about France being "our greatest ally" may be a reference to the creation of our country, when that very country helped this country become independent.

 

One must also see other gaffs that may have offended countries in play. Perhaps the gaff where Norman Schwarzkopf during a press conference may well have offended our ally France. "There is nothing between us and baghdad except for this light french division."

 

As for Saudia Arabia, I seem to recall that they are an ally also.

 

I wonder about the cultural differences with regards to bowing to the king of sa and the queen of e.

 

I am not a boh fan by any means.

[Harvey Mushman]

Here is what our President actually said in his toast to French President Sarkozy earlier this year (I just KNEW someone would make reference to the French support of our revolution over 2 centuries ago):

 

"We don’t have a stronger friend and stronger ally than Nicolas Sarkozy, and the French people."

 

This is CLEARLY a modern reference and my own British friends were very highly offended, as they rightly should have been. They have supported us in every modern conflict, and continue to have thousands of troops fighting and dying in Afghanistan - on the front lines. This was greatly covered in the Euro and UK press - our press gives us little to nothing on the international front, for a variety of reasons - pathetic.

 

I like the French people (often expressing similar thoughts to below) and have had many enjoyable times in their county. However, their 20-21st century political and military record has some gaping holes. If we are talking about our General's comments, Schwarzkopf's were clearly focused on the fact that it was a "Light" French Division. If we want more hard-hitting comments, I think Patton said that he'd "rather have the German Army in front of him than the French Army behind."

 

It was the French Government that refused us overflight rights in the early '80s to strike Ghaddaffi for his direct support of terrorism. This required our F-111s out of the UK to fly all the way down and thru the Straits of Gibralter (instead of directly over France) for the strike on him at Tripoli - adding several hours in the cockpit for them, and we lost one that very likely would NOT have been lost if they had been fully alert and rested (the crew died- we'll honor them Monday). The UK let them launch, but the French refused to let them fly across their country.

 

As as Navy carrier pilot in that time frame, this still GREATLY OFFENDS me, and amplifies my reaction to our President's most offensive toast to Sarkozy.

 

He could have made it a reference to their historic support and added that they are "one of" our strongest allies.... You can choose if this was an unintended gaffe, or not. He usually reads these toasts in the absence of a teleprompter, as can be seen in the Queen toast video.

 

 

HM

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

HM, That was not Sarkozy who made that decision during operation eldorado canyon, was it?

I believe the villain you seek is François Mitterrand.

 

According to your own logic if you can be offended at france for not allowing the overflight some 25 years ago then why can't the reference be about Frances support during the American revolution?

 

The Navy aircraft did not have to cross France did they?

They operated off of CVA-60 Saratoga, CVA-66 America and CVB-43 Coral Sea.

 

The aircraft that needed to cross France were USAF F-111 and EF-111 of the 48th TFW based in England.

If I recall correctly there was a single USAF F-111 that was shot down over the Gulf of Sidra.

No real chance of making it back to its base in England was there?

 

I do seem to recall that there was a F-111 that was damaged that was granted permission to overfly France, but I cannot find any reference to it.

 

It should also be noted that not only did France deny overflight but Spain and Italy did as well.

Great set of allies!?

 

 

Nonetheless the two U.S. Air Force captains — Fernando L. Ribas-Dominicci and Paul F. Lorence — who lost there live in the F-111 that was shot down should be remembered this Memorial Day.

[Harvey Mushman]

Hacker,

 

The toast was clearly a current reference, and I would not remotely call France our "strongest" ally in the last century. Sarkoszy himself has certainly embraced the US (and moved to redirect France from financially failing Socialism) more than most of his recent predecessors. Still, they are not our "strongest" ally -, however The UK has provided far more political and military support over the last two decades, hands down.

 

I regret I carry certain emotions about our French government "allies" on several fronts, most of which I am not free to talk about. I flew side by side with the French in the mid-late '70s (darn near landed on the Clemenceau by mistake once - but that is another story ) and greatly respected their military, however.

 

Regarding El Dorado Canyon, The AF had the Tripoli targets and the Navy had those in Benghazi. And yes, the Navy needed no overflight permissions - when anything happens in the world, the US President's first question is always "Where are our Carriers?", they carry a sovereign US airstrip wherever they go, and our all-nuclear powered carrier fleet can move pretty quick.

 

The decision by France to deny overflight had the most severe impact on the ingress to the targets, resulting in a much extended night flight and night refueling in bad weather to reach the target area for the UK based crews, potentially degrading their capabilities in the target area (Tripoli). Reportedly, they were able to make it "feet wet" before crashing just off their Tripoli target, or in the Gulf of Sidra, a little further to the east (I had several sorties below the RLOD - Red Line of Death). The details remain classified to my knowledge, and I do not want to run afoul of the security folks as my memories grow dimmer.

 

Yes, given that we had terrorist bombings in Europe at that time sponsored (and in some cases conducted by Libyan agents) we should have received the permissions from all three nations. However, the refusal of Spain and Italy wasn't that much of a surprise given their internal politics at the time, and the Cold War was still in full swing. For example, the communist party still held a real piece of the Italian political landscape (and I confess to getting hauled in with a few of my buddies and counseled because we had been "frequenting a communist front" restaurant on liberty in Italy - without knowing it!).

 

Anyway, as you and I both agreed, we'll honor Captains Ribas-Dominicci and Lorence tomorrow, together with all our fallen and missing comrades. We owe our freedom to them.

 

Cheers,

Harvey

[Harvey Mushman]

Double Tap.

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

Of course Obama made that toast to Sarkozy; after all, he was born in France.