Ending stage with rifle...

[Shooting Bull]

So as not to hijack another thread I'll pose the question here, do you write stages where the rifle is shot last? I know some consider that poor stage design because it requires the Timer Operator to be more aware of where he holds the timer to ensure he picks up the last shot. I disagree, I think the error would be with the Timer Operator. To simply state that the rifle should NEVER be the last gun eliminates 33% of your options when writing stages. Rifles aren'i all that quiet, otherwise we wouldn't need hearing protection. It's simply a matter of the Timer Operator paying attention to what they're doing. Isn't that what they're supposed to be doing anyway?

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

For a monthly match not too bad,but like you said all the TO's have to be doing a good job or somewhere someones going to get a really good time because rifle didn't get recorded or if its caught that it did not pick up time ,your going to have some reshoots.

 

I never write rifle last.

 

 

AO

[August West, SASS #45079]

RO has no control of intensity of loads or length of barrel that shooters bring to the line.

[JD Trampas, SASS # 55781]

In the clubs I shoot shotgun is usually last, but 2 of the clubs have classes for working cowboy and range detective, no shotgun, so the rifle is last, as has been said if the TO might not pick up all the rifle rounds, it hasn't happened yet that I'm aware of. Ending stages with the revolvers is the best way of catching everything, IMHO.

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

A match director normally does not want to have to deal with reshoots that come about from having a rifle shot last. A reshoot almost always makes someone complain. Why put yourself in a bind over having the rifle last when you don't need to do that? And it is extremely hard to pick up a Buckaroo's rifle shots when they are using a .22!

 

Only in Wild Bunch, where a "major" power factor is used, is finishing with a rifle considered acceptable by most match directors.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Grizzly Dave]

We had a case Saturday where pistols were last, and due to low power loads and timer placement it didn't pick up the last shots and the shooter had to reshoot.

 

For what it's worth, we did scroll back thru the timer and it actually missed a bunch of the rifle shots as well.

[Cassalong Hopidy]

I have spent plenty of hours running the timer and the one thing you can be certain of is that, despite the T/O's skills, there will be shooters whose rifle shots just will not be picked up. I agree with those who suggest you are inviting reshoots. In a local match with a smaller group, it probably would not be a problem, but with a bigger group, it would be. And while you are correct in saying that a lot of scenarios are lost if the rifle is never shot last, there is a virtually endless list of possibilities for writing stage scenarios through variations in number, size and placement of targets, staging of guns, etc.

 

Cassalong Hopidy

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Interesting topic Philly.

 

Its not just a low noise rifle and/or a TO not holding the timer correctly to record all shots, but sometimes, its the timing mechanism itself.

 

If they are set very sensitive, it should pick up nearly all shots being fired. BUT, if its toooooo sensitive, a loud shot from an ajoining stage could also be picked up and give a shooter a misreading.

 

My guess is that in the 25-30 years that alot of these folks have been dealing with these issues, alot of them think its best that the rifle NOT be shot last and I'm gona rely on their experience and keep it that way.

 

just my .02

 

 

..........Widder

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Heeee'sss baaak!

 

Hi Philly,

 

Glad to see you back.

 

First, I'll tell you what happened to me once. The trend at our Cowboy Town is shooter's choice of gun order. When I'm timing, as soon as the shooter pulls the last gun, I check to ensure the timer is picking up the rounds fired. I was timing for a shooter once who chose to shoot his rifle last. I moved that timer everywhere I could reach and did not get even one shot from the rifle. The shooter did not want to reshoot. He liked his time. He was finally told to reload and did so. I handed the timer to a 6 foot plus fellow. He was able to get the last shot.

 

I was told the following story by someone on my posse. Years ago, we had a couple to whom winning was everything. As my posse was heading back to stage one we walked by their posse. The scenario called for the rifle last. She was timing for her husband and was observed placing the timer's receiver on her thigh at the end of the string. When the scores came out, we saw that he'd beat one of the fastest shooters in the country on that stage by 10+ seconds.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Doc Nelson #19958]

My personal experience is that a .22 rifle is louder than some downloaded .38's,I've never had a buckaroo shooting .22's be a problem. But I have had several and frequent problems with low power loads of any caliber, and if the wind is blowing it is very hard to get the timer to pick-up some rifle shots, let alone picking up the last one.

 

I do prefer the possibility of having the rifle last, however since SASS has let go of the power minimum, it really isn't a feasible option for anything other than a casual monthly match.

 

Doc Nelson

[Dubious Don #56333]

Poor stage design to have the rifle last. The RO has no control over the loads the shooter may be using and I've personally timed a bunch that the timer WILL NOT reliably pick up shots eeven when you hold the timer way out in front of the shooter where it's in his peripheral vision.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

So we can have missed shots and timers cranked up so they register cars on the freeway a mile away? Good plan!

[Bull Skinner]

Philly I been an RO II since 2003 and have timed a lot of shooters. In the past few years I have timed some 38 loads and even some 45 loads that were so downloaded that I couldn't have heard them without earplugs and I don't have bad hearing.

 

No, it is a bad practice to have rifle last.

 

Just my opinion mind ya.

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

I only put the rifle last if I'm writing for a Blackpowder only match, for the reasons that have already been mentioned.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

It seems like every couple of months a thread pops up about having the rifle be the last firearm in a stage.

Why is this? What with the "SASS Match Director Guide" section for stage design (on page 2) stating clearly;

 

 

3. Always end the shooting string with a shotgun or revolver, so the time can reliably be

recorded. No main stage scenario should ever be designed to end with a rifle.

 

And with historical note presented here by PWB (My memory) that he was told by the Judge that the shotgun was added so that the timer could hear the last shot.

 

Why is it that this question keeps coming up?

It seems that the decision at SASS HQ has been made.

Why not live with it?

 

My 2 cents worth.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

This problem is partially the result of the minimum velocity of 650'/sec being dropped to a combination of 400'/sec and minimum power factor.

 

Things that have changed.

Long guns staged horizontally on tables. No leaning against walls. (I shoot only hammered doubles and vertically leaning doesn't bother me)

Hand guns are no longer split. All stages must be for gunfighter.

Only shooting on the clock. No extra stuff. Roping, carrying money bags or ?, pushing wheelbarrow, dealing cards (I hate cards)

No bars in windows. Might be in someones visual sight line they'll have to bend down.

No full pistol reloads. I haven't seen one of those in years.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen full rifle reloads in years.

 

Looks like the move is towards mandatory gun order. At least shotgun last.

-----------

A possible solution:

If the rifle is last try putting the shooting position at a wall and have the muzzle not be past the wall. This will reflect the sound back towards the shooter and timer. Don't have to be so close to the wall that the bullet might hit it. 3' to the side will work. 2' back from the wall. Or under a roof will do the same.

 

More and more when an issue comes up someone doesn't like because it doesn't fit their idea of fun, the move is to eliminate the issue instead of changing it to making it work.

 

Cowboy Action Shooting no longer has much action in it. Just shooting the same 10-10-4 stages with very little variety at different props.

 

Yes, the game has changed! Is it better or worse?

Well, it's just different.

[Grizzly Dave]

One possibility to mix things up would be to have something like this

 

Start at position 1 - shoot pistols

 

Move to position 2 where shotgun is staged - shoot shotgun targets

 

Move to position 3 take shotgun with you, lay down shotgun, pick up rifle and shoot, lay rifle back down and pick up shotgun again for one final target.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Wrote a stage with rifles last at a monthly a while back. Checking the timer and running it backwards, it picked up every shot, even the Buckaroos .22s which was a concern. A lot has to do with the TO and how he holds it also. I've seen TOs hold the timers way down with pickup pointed at ground, against chest, etc. MT

[Marauder SASS #13056]

And you have to consider the stage layout. When shooting in some "buildings" the R.O. cannot get where they need to be to capture the rifle shots.

 

As to 22 rifles, since they nearly always break the sound barrier, you will get a very nice "CRACK" that the timer will pick up better than a subsonic round.

 

It is just too hard to ensure that multiple T.O.s will capture everything as others have well stated.

[BJT]

Typically the TO has 8-10 shots to get the timer in a place to pickup shots. In most circumstances, it is doable although I have had to go past the shooter's face a time or two. It can be problematic with a large prop, a small window and a big shooter unless there is another opening near by to move the timer to.

 

Under most situations with a good TO and shooters that do not mind the TO spooning him on light loads, it can be done.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

[Colorado Big Al #3195]

Timer position and vigliance is everything........ REGARDLESS of which is being used!!!

IMHO

 

CBA

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Move the targets back out to where they used to be back in the day before they crept in way too close over the years. Leave the timer on the shelf. Winner is hits and misses. In the event of a tie have a shoot-off (dueling tree, etc) or toss a coin. Then you could bring back the non-shooting stuff as (with no clock) no worries about that "goofy" stuff being on the clock or off the clock.

 

I would start a new game called Cowboy Bullseye but I don't like chutin' by meowndangself.

 

This post is satire but only partially tongue in cheek and not intended to engender hatred of the author. YMMV. Please do not pile on or be ugly.

 

I like shotgun last every time. And more than 4 sg. Also, 2 or 3 different shooting positions for the sg. Stages with only 2 sg targets are a wasted opportunity.

[Cowboy Junky]

Far targets slower non-action stages......IMO that’s what is hurting some sports like NRA rifle match…once you get the action bug it’s hard to go back to slow fire events. We can't get folks to show up at all for slow fire stuff at our club but action shooting like SASS and IDPA are through the roof.....more excitement = more attendance is what we see at our club. Honestly I think the close speed & action is exactly why the numbers in SASS keep climbing.

[Blastmaster]

I think it is a great idea for monthly mathces to end with rifle,,,, but I don't write the stages,,, Not a good idea for annuals and above for the reasons already given. I would gladly give a reshoot if the timer didn't pick up the last shot.

 

I RO/TO alot and have never had a problem picking up a rifle shot if I so desired to capture the sound with the timer,,,, even a 22cal. As someone said, the TO has to be on his toes and get the timer in there on the last couple of shoots plus be watching to see that the time did advance plus reaad the last time so it doesn't get muddy with background noise.

 

Ending on rifle would allow way more different gun transitions and such and that would be nice.

 

 

Blastmaster

[Anvil Al #59168]

Nobody around here does.

And I am thinkful we have some good stage writers in the area.

I if write a stage. It will not end with a rifle.

And if ending in pistols. I will make SURE they are not ending with pistols

out some window or something that the shooter may be hanging half out of making it

hard for the RO to get the timer up there to be SURE the he is picking up the last shot.

[ShadowCatcher]

It seems like every couple of months a thread pops up about having the rifle be the last firearm in a stage.

Why is this? What with the "SASS Match Director Guide" section for stage design (on page 2) stating clearly;

 

 

 

 

And with historical note presented here by PWB (My memory) that he was told by the Judge that the shotgun was added so that the timer could hear the last shot.

 

Why is it that this question keeps coming up?

It seems that the decision at SASS HQ has been made.

Why not live with it?

 

My 2 cents worth.

Some folks like to talk about, some want to find out if there is new or better reasoning,

some want to know if it's something that others would like to change, or have an insight

on how to improve.

 

There's a whole lot of reasons why folks here-about sometimes revisit a topic of discussion.

 

Since they're done with 100% recycled electrons, and no atoms are smashed in the making of

these posts, it's got full ASPCA approval to beat these mostly-dead horses. Sometimes they

still kick, or at least twitch.

 

I find it's better for me to not bother commenting on the things I don't care about, and

just read and learn from many others. YMMV . . .

 

Shadow Catcher

 

P.S. I'd like it if we could end with the rifle more often, but recognize the technical

issues with doing that, so I don't try to push it too hard.

[Shooting Bull]

It seems like every couple of months a thread pops up about having the rifle be the last firearm in a stage.

Why is this? What with the "SASS Match Director Guide" section for stage design (on page 2) stating clearly;

 

 

 

 

And with historical note presented here by PWB (My memory) that he was told by the Judge that the shotgun was added so that the timer could hear the last shot.

 

Why is it that this question keeps coming up?

It seems that the decision at SASS HQ has been made.

Why not live with it?

 

My 2 cents worth.

 

Because I like this sport. I like it a LOT. I also like variety. If I see a way to add those two things together I'm gonna make an inquiry as to how. So far, the only reason I've seen for not allowing rifles to be used last is because the velocity requirement of our ammo was allowed to go too low. Seems pretty simple to me to just adjust that back up a hundred feet per second or so. That would increase the variety of stage writing posiblities by 50%.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Philly, you haven't been around long enough to know what it is yer saying. "Simply" and changing anything to do with ammo requirements are mutully exclusive. Don't even start about gun mods..... Good friends will go to brick bats over such things.....

[Wolf Wind-Walker #36748]

Hey Slim.........how ya doin.....???

 

Couple of things about "Rifle Shot Last"

 

1. "If" TO is where they are supposed to be and aware of reports from rifle.........it is easy to see the timer and if it is recording or not..........never had a problem while timing rifle last......even registering 22,s. (just got done a "Cowboys vs Cops" match in Kanab this past Sat, and Cops were using AR platform with 22 conversion...no problems timeing....)

 

2. In big matches I 'very seldom" put Rifle last.........cause picking up brass is more efficient if it is done after 1st or 2nd gun.....helps the stages move along better......

 

For monthly's......if folks do there job..should be no issues..........

 

Another "if" in there you see...

 

be well...Wolf

[Oklahomabound]

Our club occasionally has the rifle last, works just fine... ...and yes the TO's hold the timer correctly and position themselves correctly... ...no issues.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

We had a case Saturday where pistols were last, and due to low power loads and timer placement it didn't pick up the last shots and the shooter had to reshoot.

 

For what it's worth, we did scroll back thru the timer and it actually missed a bunch of the rifle shots as well.

So the shooter thinks his time was right and declines a reshoot. How is he scored? Wasn't his fault TO was asleep.

[Grizzly Dave]

So the shooter thinks his time was right and declines a reshoot. How is he scored? Wasn't his fault TO was asleep.

 

GCK - as his time was 7.something on a stage the fastest shot in about 20, all involved decided a reshoot was in order. We had a handful of RO IIs, an RO instructor and TG on the posse who worked out the call, and I think the right one.

 

Stuff happens. All we can do is try to do our best and then make the right call when something is amiss.

 

To answer your question, follow the chain of appeal and the MD makes the call.

 

For what it's worth, I wasn't involved in any way other than watching.

 

Grizz

[Shooting Bull]

Philly, you haven't been around long enough to know what it is yer saying. "Simply" and changing anything to do with ammo requirements are mutully exclusive. Don't even start about gun mods..... Good friends will go to brick bats over such things.....

 

Actually I HAVE been around long enough to know that but, lost my head there for a second. Thanks for the reminder.

 

 

I guess the bottom line is, if anybody comes to have fun with the Silver City Shooting Society in beautiful downtown Pahrump Nevada, be prepared to shoot your rifle last occasionally. It's a great change of pace and we've never had any problems.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

The only situation I have seen where the rifle was used last involved an outlaw making his getaway on a fast horse and once he was out of pistol and shotgun range...out came the rifle and the good guy shot the bad guy just before he went over the hill.

[Cypress Sun]

I don't see any problem with shooting the rifle last as long as the TO's are alert and on the ball. With that being said, it shouldn't be done at a big match for all of the numerous reasons folks have already stated.

 

If rifle is written last in a stage, it should not be on a bay that uses a store front or other barrier that is possibly between the TO/timer and the shooter. Only have rifle last if it is in the open.

 

Just my opinion.