Bart Solo Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Everytime I read about the sight picture I read something like the following from Doc Shapiro's site: "The front post will be centered in the rear sight notch. "The top of the front sight will be level with the top of the rear sight. "The center of the target will be directly on top of the front sight. "Your eye will be focused on the front sight. As a result, both the rear sight and the target will be blurry." That is the textbook definition of the correct sight picture and it can't be faulted, but is that exactly what you see as you are quickly moving from the current shot to your next target. I mention this because last weekend I shot at the Parker, Kansas Spring Roundup and twice failed to pick up targets hidden in the underbrush. Focusing on the front sight might be correct, but if you are shooting quickly part of your brain has to be engaged in picking up the next target. Anyway what do you really good shooters see when the targets are placed in very challenging positions? Oh, I also missed two targets because I hit limbs that partially obscured the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beeline Bullet Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Everytime I read about the sight picture I read something like the following from Doc Shapiro's site: "The front post will be centered in the rear sight notch. "The top of the front sight will be level with the top of the rear sight. "The center of the target will be directly on top of the front sight. "Your eye will be focused on the front sight. As a result, both the rear sight and the target will be blurry." That is the textbook definition of the correct sight picture and it can't be faulted, but is that exactly what you see as you are quickly moving from the current shot to your next target. I mention this because last weekend I shot at the Parker, Kansas Spring Roundup and twice failed to pick up targets hidden in the underbrush. Focusing on the front sight might be correct, but if you are shooting quickly part of your brain has to be engaged in picking up the next target. Anyway what do you really good shooters see when the targets are placed in very challenging positions? Oh, I also missed two targets because I hit limbs that partially obscured the targets. If I follow the above proceedure to the letter with my colt clone I will shoot under the target or very low. I'm not a really good shooter but I find that I have better luck if I keep the front post a bit higher than the rear sight and covering the spot on the target to be hit. And indeed the target does appear blurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Sights??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I look at the target and only see my gun with perifreal (sp?) vision. When it get in the way, I pull the trigger. I would make a horrible bullseye shooter, but it works for CAS (usually). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Remember the advice that fast shooters give out when teaching shooting courses, and their students start missing targets. The common command? "Front Sight!" (meaning don't loose focus on the front sight). Disclaimer - I don't qualify for "really good shooter" group. (At least, I don't have badge to that effect). But what I "see" is the front sight somewhere within the outline of the target edges before I trip the trigger. The rear sight is usually "just along for the ride". Once you learn to maintain enough rigidity in how you hold the revolver or rifle, so that you are keeping the sights together as you move the gun (the sights move as if a single object, not two independently floating objects), and you keep a solid cheek weld to the butt of rifle or shotgun, then all you really have to concentrate on is making the front sight touch the target (and preferably the center of the target). On the transition from one target to the next, I flick my eyes to the new target, pivot the body with the legs to bring the gun to the target, and as front sight crosses the edge of target, touch it off. (OK, that is what I want to do, at least.) Part 2. "If you want to hit small, you have to see small" Translated - the more precisely you want to hit a target, the more you have to concentrate on seeing the exact spot you want to hit. So, with a partially obscured target, look only at the largest part that is unobstructed. Then shoot THAT spot. Your Sharp FOCUS will still be on the front sight, though. Look at your targets before you come to the line and pick out the sweet spot you want to hit. Should only take you about 100,000 rounds to get there. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 That is the textbook definition of the correct sight picture and it can't be faulted, but is that exactly what you see as you are quickly moving from the current shot to your next target. With the rifle, yes. At the ranges we shoot, my sight picture on pistol targets is not as precise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Not a fast shooter but some fast advice Now that don't sound right and it doesn't mean the advice is correct.. I get most of my practice dry firing.. yeah in the basement... I go slow enought doing one shots that I bring the pistols up with the sight picture in mind. It slowly builds muscle memory into me that I know I have the pistol held properly and the sight picture is there... Once that is instilled into you.. you know that the proper sight picture is there when you pull it up to fire... then I can kinda pay more attention to target aquisition.. can't forget about the sights.. Just the way I try to learn myself.. don't know if it's right or not.. Muscle memory means a heck of a lot in this game. Rance Thinkin' there is better shooters than me to give you advice. and yeah... I still have misses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 As a matter of fact, that is pretty much what I see when I'm shooting "sight focus". That's for smaller, tighter shots that require a high degree of precision. This is how you should learn to shoot, proper fundamentals, etc. If you can't do this on demand, you ought to continue to work on it. More advanced techniques should not be pursued until you've mastered the basics. Everything hinges on that. There is a more advanced method that Brian Enos refers to as "target focus." In this case, you see the target clearly as that's what your eyes are focused on. However, you still get a sight picture, it's just blurry. It is possible to shoot very fast using "sight focus", and can be trained. This is the fundamental skill of fast and accurate shooting. All of the other fundamentals come into play to make it happen, grip, stance, etc., and your "platform" (see the article on my web site in the "Tips and Help" section. If you don't know where your sights were lined up when the bullet left the barrel, you have no idea where the bullet went. You may have a general idea, but you will not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 If you don't know where your sights were lined up when the bullet left the barrel, you have no idea where the bullet went. You may have a general idea, but you will not know. You will only know where it didn't go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Everytime I read about the sight picture I read something like the following from Doc Shapiro's site: "The front post will be centered in the rear sight notch. "The top of the front sight will be level with the top of the rear sight. "The center of the target will be directly on top of the front sight. "Your eye will be focused on the front sight. As a result, both the rear sight and the target will be blurry." That is the textbook definition of the correct sight picture and it can't be faulted, but is that exactly what you see as you are quickly moving from the current shot to your next target. I mention this because last weekend I shot at the Parker, Kansas Spring Roundup and twice failed to pick up targets hidden in the underbrush. Focusing on the front sight might be correct, but if you are shooting quickly part of your brain has to be engaged in picking up the next target. Anyway what do you really good shooters see when the targets are placed in very challenging positions? Oh, I also missed two targets because I hit limbs that partially obscured the targets. My sight picture is what you describe. I see both front and rear with focus on the front sight. My tendency when shooting as rapidly as I can (without missing) is that the front sight climbs a bit (over being properly in the rear notch) making the shot a bit higher than actual proper point of aim. For that reason, my guns are usually sighted about an inch low on the bench. I use adjustable widened square notch rear sights and a wide front sight on a ramp (Ruger Blackhawks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 For precision shooting I like for my guns to shoot on with the blade level with the top of the notch and with equal gap on each side. The best way to get them to do that is bench rest them and make sight adjustments as needed. For CAS I use the same guns but not that site picture. I let the blade rise above the notch just enough to be seen quickly but I hold at the bottom of the target. Even though you are sighting to the bottom of the target the bullet will rise up striking toward the center of the target. How high I hold the front sight will depend on how big and close the target is. Big and close, the front sight can be higher and slightly off on windage. This allows for less time on target. For farther out smaller targets it has to be more precise. I do this for two reasons. It's faster acquiring the front site because more of it is visible and because the whole target is visible setting on top of the front site the target is also acquired faster. If you are sighting to the center only half the target is visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 I haven't gotten to the section in Enos' book on target focus yet, but your discription makes sense, Doc. If you are shooting fast you need to move quickly from target to target. Your attention has to be on target acquisition which means your focus has to be on the target. Unfamilar and unusual target placement is what tripped me up last weekend. Retraining your brain is difficult, especially if like me you have spent all of your shooting life focusing on the front sight, leaving the target and rear sight blurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I look at the target and only see my gun with perifreal (sp?) vision. When it get in the way, I pull the trigger. I would make a horrible bullseye shooter, but it works for CAS (usually). I don't know where I got this from or if it is even right at all to use, but for the close in pistol targets as above I look at the target and have a fuzzy view of the pistol sights only. If things seemed lined up I pull the trigger and move on. The rifle is a different story and shot much like the opener with a traditional sight picture. It's not confusing for me as it just comes natural as I'm shooting the stage. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 By the way Doc, your section on proper stance is important to rapid target acquisition. As I understand what you have written, you maintain an athletic stance moving at the knees keeping everything above the waist in pretty much the same relative position through out the string of shots. That must help when you are using the target focus technique you described above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Targets have gotten closer for tha most part but ye better have a good sight picture on tha FIRST target for sure. Most things are done subconciously after that but even your subconcious thought has ta have something to work with so ta speak! I'm a half a$$ point shooter but you will not point shoot a 10 er 12 stage match an come out on top. RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 By the way Doc, your section on proper stance is important to rapid target acquisition. As I understand what you have written, you maintain an athletic stance moving at the knees keeping everything above the waist in pretty much the same relative position through out the string of shots. That must help when you are using the target acquisition technique you described above. It helps with everything. Rifle, shotgun, and pistols. Rotate low in the legs. Your upper body should be quiet and stable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 That is my biggest problem when targets are spread a ways apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Hey Bart "Napolean" Solo.... I got me a lil-bitty pic of a voluptuously nekid woman mounted on my front sights... heps me to concentrate. (Joshin'... Pard. The nic-name... jest a brief reference to the old... "Man From UNCLE"... tv show) ts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Sight picture,with proper technique when you push out pistol you should should already have sight,if target is big & close I know I dont need a perfect sight picture but you do need one for me at least I can shoot faster knowing I have sight,even if front sight is slightly high. Evil Roy pistol video is real good training tips as well as Doc's book. regards AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Hey Bart "Napolean" Solo.... I got me a lil-bitty pic of a voluptuously nekid woman mounted on my front sights... heps me to concentrate. (Joshin'... Pard. The nic-name... jest a brief reference to the old... "Man From UNCLE"... tv show) ts My uncle was a man, and my aunt a woman. Brian Enos says that you shouldn't concnetrate. It gets in the way of shooting fast. I have to admit that if I had an itty bitti picture of a nekid woman on my front sight I would be too busy concentrating to shoot fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I got a lot of my information from Doc... I told him I dry fired in the basement a lot.. He told me plainly... If you shoot at the same targets everytime.. you'll be off target when things change.. In other words.. He told me to put little white dots all over the room.. High, low, way left, way right, Keep the same stance and sight recognition pivot at the knee's... and don't get into the habit of just shooting the same 5 targets right in front of me Hope this helps.. Doc helped me improve.. Rance Thinkin' I could use some more help Credit where credit is due... Doc Shapiro probably.. no did help me the most.. Thanks Doc.. I'm in my sixties trying to get better at this sport.. Yeah.. I can role over Yeah.. I can play dead I don't fetch too well.. so you can teach an ol' dog some new tricks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Everytime I read about the sight picture I read something like the following from Doc Shapiro's site: "The front post will be centered in the rear sight notch. "The top of the front sight will be level with the top of the rear sight. "The center of the target will be directly on top of the front sight. "Your eye will be focused on the front sight. As a result, both the rear sight and the target will be blurry." That is the textbook definition of the correct sight picture and it can't be faulted, but is that exactly what you see as you are quickly moving from the current shot to your next target. I mention this because last weekend I shot at the Parker, Kansas Spring Roundup and twice failed to pick up targets hidden in the underbrush. Focusing on the front sight might be correct, but if you are shooting quickly part of your brain has to be engaged in picking up the next target. Anyway what do you really good shooters see when the targets are placed in very challenging positions? Oh, I also missed two targets because I hit limbs that partially obscured the targets. That is how it was this past weekend on day 1. Shot the best 5 stages at a large match that I ever had. Was picking up the front site and the rest was somewhat blurry. That is NOT what I was seeing on day 2. Did not seen to know what a front sight was. And it showed. Part of the problem might have been the "hidden in the underbrush" and "limbs that partially abscured the targets". Note to self on where there are Hidden and abscured targets. Check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Won't have to worry about that next year!!! One reason I didn't go there this year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Doc Shapiro will say different, but as a former paper puncher with bunches of targets with one-hole groups, I had to UN-LEARN the "perfect sight picture" if my CAS scores stage times were ever gonna get out of "hour glass" mode. When yer at the practice range, set up either a paper plate or a plain sheet of printer paper as a target at 5-7 yards. Point the gun at the middle of the target, more or less, and with the sights slightly miss-aligned, maybe the blade is crowding the side of the notch, or is a little low or high compared to the top of the notch, just make a note of how much it is off and squeeze off a round. Continue trying different "slightly wrong" sight pictures, note where the bullet hits, and pretty soon you will have a "map" in your head describing the limits of an acceptable sight picture for CAS main match shooting. Now when ya pull yer pistol, instead of taking the TIME (we time our shooters in CAS, and award NO bonus points for a center hit) to perfectly align the sights, you will know when the sight picture is ADEQUATE to get a hit...... When it is, pop the plate and MOVE ON. I've shot quite a few clean matches using this approach, and frankly, when I DO have a pistol miss, it's generally because my brain anticipates how long it expects me to take to get an ADEQUATE (not perfect) sight picture, and I end up in a rythem where I trip the trigger even when that hasn't yet happened. The brain will scream "NO!" as the finger says "what?" and has already pulled the trigger. (same thing happens when ya run the rifle "all out". Sometimes the trigger finger gets ahead of the aiming mechanism. But if ya NEVER have that happen, yer shooting slower than you COULD and probably still get away with it 98% of the time. In the end, ya got a lotta stuff involved in getting ON TARGET, and only a little of that has to do with the sights. I'm shooting "Outlaw" these days, and yeah buddy it can get ugly, but amazingly the hand can point the pistol quite nicely and all the eyes have to do is focus on the middle of the target while the hand does it's thing from the hip..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Won't have to worry about that next year!!! One reason I didn't go there this year! I was thinking that myself - if I had to deal with hidden and obscured targets at a match... I certainly wouldn't have to deal with it at that match ever again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 That is how it was this past weekend on day 1. Shot the best 5 stages at a large match that I ever had. Was picking up the front site and the rest was somewhat blurry. That is NOT what I was seeing on day 2. Did not seen to know what a front sight was. And it showed. Part of the problem might have been the "hidden in the underbrush" and "limbs that partially abscured the targets". Note to self on where there are Hidden and abscured targets. Check. Rereading my post. It sounded like I was at the match with the hidden targets. That was not the case. Was at a different match. My problem was just that. My problem. Not the targets. Just lost focus. Was just saying that it could have been his problem was the hidden targets. And to take to note not to go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shoer 27979 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 if I am wearing the right shooting glasses I can see a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Doc Shapiro will say different, but as a former paper puncher with bunches of targets with one-hole groups, I had to UN-LEARN the "perfect sight picture" if my CAS scores stage times were ever gonna get out of "hour glass" mode. When yer at the practice range, set up either a paper plate or a plain sheet of printer paper as a target at 5-7 yards. Point the gun at the middle of the target, more or less, and with the sights slightly miss-aligned, maybe the blade is crowding the side of the notch, or is a little low or high compared to the top of the notch, just make a note of how much it is off and squeeze off a round. Continue trying different "slightly wrong" sight pictures, note where the bullet hits, and pretty soon you will have a "map" in your head describing the limits of an acceptable sight picture for CAS main match shooting. <snip> The technique you are using is a more advanced technique. It requires proper fundamentals to execute successfully. I do teach those (and other) more advanced techniques to students that are "ready" for them. It's not something I even bring up to a student that isn't close to ready for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Not that what I know matters much...but sense ya asked. Lefty Longridge taught me about shooting with both eyes open - target focus. Verify with sights as needed...always have a very little pause on the first target. Taught me a few more things too...but you'd have to pay for those. Move eyes first... This is CAS...and if you can't do a little point shooting yer going to be left behind. Cheers! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted May 19, 2011 Author Share Posted May 19, 2011 Not that what I know matters much...but sense ya asked. Lefty Longridge taught me about shooting with both eyes open - target focus. Verify with sights as needed...always have a very little pause on the first target. Taught me a few more things too...but you'd have to pay for those. Move eyes first... This is CAS...and if you can't do a little point shooting yer going to be left behind. Cheers! Phantom Thanks Phantom. I will try to remember what you said. I don't want to be left behind. And thanks everybody. This has been a very illuminating. Lots of good information here especially about target focus. Since today was my 63 birthday, it will be a miracle if I can still learn anything, but i will try. If it doesn't rain I am going to live fire practice tomorrow night. Maybe next time I won't lose a target in the weeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasspounder Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I shoot with both eyes open. With the 1851 Navy .36 percussion guns, I just put the front bead on the targets where I want to hit 'em, and make sure the muzzle is depressed to where I don't "see" any "barrel" and touch 'em off with a smooth trigger squeeze. I don't have time to think about whether anything is "blurry" or not. Those guns point naturally enough that things are already lined up just fine side -to-side. I'm not conscious of using the rear (hammer nose notch) sight at all. Rarely miss pistol targets, but when I do the shot almost invariably goes right over the top center of the target becaue I failed to depress the muzzle enough. Bp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Be the bullet, Grasshopper. Seriously, for pistols I just put the top of the front sight in the middle of the target. For my rifles I have a small Beech style sight that works perfectly. Just fill it with target and fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 ... at least I can shoot faster knowing I have sight,even if front sight is slightly high. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassalong Hopidy Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 One of the things revealed by responses from Doc Shapiro (whose teachings I have found extraordinarily helpful) and others, as well as from my own personal experience is this. The faster you are moving from one target to the next, the comparatively more focus you must shift from the front sight to the target. I have watched Sidekick, Cowboy Junky, Fast Eddie, Arcadia Outlaw, Jake Dunson and plenty of others who do some fast work with their pistols and while advice emphasizing focus on front sight is particularly true of the first target shot with the pistol (because the relationship of eyes to sight to target must all be brought into alignment), I submit that the attention given target acquisition takes on greater attention with the follow-up shots. If you are perfect at maintaining the relationship between your eyes and your front sight in swinging from one target to the next (by rotating through the legs rather than with the arms), you should theoretically be able to keep your focus on the front sight at all times, but at higher speeds, I would suggest that both the front sight and the target are slightly blurred and that somewhat greater focus attention is necessarily devoted to the target about to be engaged, and immediately after breaking that shot, to the next one to be shot. Cassalong Hopidy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted May 19, 2011 Author Share Posted May 19, 2011 Be the bullet, Grasshopper. You have been reading Brian Enos too. Actually his is a very good book, but something about it brings the word Zen to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.