Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I understand that one needs to obey an officer's commands, but when you are doing something legally it's understandable you might not? Sadly that could get you killed... This is interesting - it seems the officer (s) in this case want to send the message that even though it may be legal to carry, don;t in thier jurisdication: http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Any conversation that begins with an officer addressing a citizen as "Junior" is bound to end poorly. I have great support and empathy for those in law enforcement, but there is no excuse for one who becomes the "law". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Branch Louie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I believe 99.5% of police officers are honest, hard working men and women trying to do the right thing. The police should be as outraged as anybody if this happen as described. I was stopped years ago with a .22 rifle in the back seat from squirrel hunting earlier in the day. I was cursed, cuffed upside the head once and even spat on a little by an officer in my face yelling at me. I had been in a shopping center area where some guy in a similiar car had a confrontation with a security guard. I guess they thought JACKPOT when they found the rifle, although no rifle had been mentioned in the encounter. After the security guard arrived and said it wasn't me, I was free to go.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I have the sense that, right or wrong on the details of the applicable law, I'm going to obey the order of a police officer, especially one with a gun aimed at me. I'll worry about the niceties of the 2nd Amendment later - when there isn't a gun pointed in my direction. I may be a Constitutional coward, but I'm alive. LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 I believe 99.5% of police officers are honest, hard working men and women trying to do the right thing. Me too... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 The man carries openly; ipso facto, he wants to draw attention to himself. There isn't any excuse for the rudeness of the cops, but then if you go around like this, some of the cops who question you will be rude, some will not. But they will question you. Carrying guns openly in cities alarms people. They call the police. The police don't know just what to expect, so they will be on alert at the very least. If you carry concealed, then you have the protection you seek, and you don't alarm either the citizenry or the police. And like has been said, if the cops have guns drawn on you, comply first, complain as loud as you want later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Poorly handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I want to see how that one turns out at trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 The only time I carried a holstered sidearm in an urban setting was in about 1968. I was 20, and working for the US Post Office in Seattle. For some unknown reason, they "qualified" a couple of us on 38 specials. The main reason was so that we could accompany registered mail from the Terminal Annex in south Seattle to King Street Station to load the registered on the train. Older men on the job told us the registered mail had never been robbed on this run, but if there ever was a stickup, we were to lay down our revolvers and not get ourselves shot. I worked swing shift. One Sunday, for some reason, they needed someone to guard the Queen Anne post office, a regular big urban post office branch in the middle of town. I was appointed, and I walked around the outside of that PO for eight hours, wearing a straw hat and a flannel shirt and with the government's S&W .38 on my hip. (The PO was closed and the streets were mostly empty.) Twice during that long shift passing cops did double takes, rushed over to me, and questioned me about carrying the pistola. I got to show my government license. They were polite at the time, but you could see the heightened concern and quick activity when the saw the open gun. So I learned practical lessons at an early age: if there is a stickup of the mail run, lay your pistol down. If you are carrying a sidearm on your hip in the city, you will cause consternation with the police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 The man carries openly; ipso facto, he wants to draw attention to himself. There isn't any excuse for the rudeness of the cops, but then if you go around like this, some of the cops who question you will be rude, some will not. But they will question you. Carrying guns openly in cities alarms people. They call the police. The police don't know just what to expect, so they will be on alert at the very least. If you carry concealed, then you have the protection you seek, and you don't alarm either the citizenry or the police. And like has been said, if the cops have guns drawn on you, comply first, complain as loud as you want later. +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 The man carries openly; ipso facto, he wants to draw attention to himself. There isn't any excuse for the rudeness of the cops, but then if you go around like this, some of the cops who question you will be rude, some will not. But they will question you. Carrying guns openly in cities alarms people. They call the police. The police don't know just what to expect, so they will be on alert at the very least. If you carry concealed, then you have the protection you seek, and you don't alarm either the citizenry or the police. And like has been said, if the cops have guns drawn on you, comply first, complain as loud as you want later. Disagree... Who cares if he draws attention to himself - if it's legal to carry openly - it's LEGAL. It's the citizen's fault for practicing his legal right? The police in this case were beyond simply being 'alert'. What's the point in having a law that allows you to do something legally if the police treat you like a criminal for practicing your legal right?? GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Disagree... Who cares if he draws attention to himself - if it's legal to carry openly - it's LEGAL. It's the citizen's fault for practicing his legal right? The police in this case were beyond simply being 'alert'. What's the point in having a law that allows you to do something legally if the police treat you like a criminal for practicing your legal right?? GG ~ Just a matter of common sense, really. Open carry of weapons will alarm people who will call the cops. The cops are cautious when approaching people know to be armed. These aren't groceries, they are weapons. These cops were out of line. But then, that's what the guy was looking for, which is why he had a recorder with him and running. Tell you my guess, though. If the cops had been polite and restrained, we wouldn't have heard about any recording. He was looking to attract cops, and he did. He got exactly what he wanted to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 Just a matter of common sense, really. Open carry of weapons will alarm people who will call the cops. The cops are cautious when approaching people know to be armed. These aren't groceries, they are weapons. These cops were out of line. But then, that's what the guy was looking for, which is why he had a recorder with him and running. Tell you my guess, though. If the cops had been polite and restrained, we wouldn't have heard about any recording. He was looking to attract cops, and he did. He got exactly what he wanted to get. Your POV ~ not mine GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Just a matter of common sense, really. Open carry of weapons will alarm people who will call the cops. The cops are cautious when approaching people know to be armed. These aren't groceries, they are weapons. These cops were out of line. But then, that's what the guy was looking for, which is why he had a recorder with him and running. Tell you my guess, though. If the cops had been polite and restrained, we wouldn't have heard about any recording. He was looking to attract cops, and he did. He got exactly what he wanted to get. Yeah...let's all buy into the attitude that the antis want us to have. Let's all act as if we are ashamed to exercise our civil rights. Let's cower in the shadows. Let's allow erroneous public perceptions driven by anti-gun media make policy. Forgive me, but isn't that exactly what we are working against? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Branch Louie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I personally don't open carry, for some of the reasons stated above, but mostly, because I don't want anyone to know I am armed. But if it is legal, then a person has the right to open carry as they choose..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Yeah...let's all buy into the attitude that the antis want us to have. Let's all act as if we are ashamed to exercise our civil rights. Let's cower in the shadows. Let's allow erroneous public perceptions driven by anti-gun media make policy. Forgive me, but isn't that exactly what we are working against? And yet one sees remarkably few folks carrying openly in the city where they have the legal right! Perhaps it's less a matter of shame than a complete lack of need to do so. I don't want people to know that I'm armed, unless I'm in a situation where it really behooves them to know. Long ago I lost the desire to pile chips on my shoulder. But I'm perfectly happy to deplore the bad job of the police in this instance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Cops were wrong! No excuse for not knowing the LAW! If I was the victim of the tirade of verbiage and was subsequently charged I would file multi million dollar lawsuit and see how the city plays that out. The cops should be fired and the DA should be reprimanded. No excuse. In the end how can the police chief, police commisioner (if applicable), and mayor and or city council condone the behaviour of the cop involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 And yet one sees remarkably few folks carrying openly in the city where they have the legal right! Perhaps it's less a matter of shame than a complete lack of need to do so. I don't want people to know that I'm armed, unless I'm in a situation where it really behooves them to know. Long ago I lost the desire to pile chips on my shoulder. But I'm perfectly happy to deplore the bad job of the police in this instance! Or perhaps they don't know that it is legal for them to do so. Or the fear just this type of harassment. Or any number of other reasons. The point is they should not be intimidated out of exercising their rights. And, if the gentleman was indeed wanting to draw attention to himself and make a political statement, why is that such a bad thing? It seems he wasn't brandishing, wasn't acting in any sort of irrational manner, just going about his daily business. Why, if that is all legal, should it bring a reaction like that? I can see maybe a cop observing him, maybe even asking him a few questions. But there should be no automatic assumption that somehow a person with a gun on his hip is up to no good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shoer 27979 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I personally don't open carry, for some of the reasons stated above, but mostly, because I don't want anyone to know I am armed. But if it is legal, then a person has the right to open carry as they choose..... + 1 why advertise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Just a matter of common sense, really. Open carry of weapons will alarm people who will call the cops. The cops are cautious when approaching people know to be armed. These aren't groceries, they are weapons. These cops were out of line. But then, that's what the guy was looking for, which is why he had a recorder with him and running. Tell you my guess, though. If the cops had been polite and restrained, we wouldn't have heard about any recording. He was looking to attract cops, and he did. He got exactly what he wanted to get. And you got all this right from the horse's mouth? Looks to me like you're reading a lot into this that may or may not be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Legal and wise are not synonymous. I can open carry here in WA legally, and I don't suspect I'd have a problem in the little towns around the state. However, I'll guarantee you I'd be stopped in Seattle in a heartbeat. I don't care to push the issue. It has nothing to do with shame, right, wrong, or anything else -- it is the wise thing to do IMHO. I carry concealed everyday. So does Wildcat (in fact she had to use it the other day). Like others have stated, I don't want people to know I'm armed. The fellow in question had the right to do as he did, but now he will be out thousands of dollars in defense of his actions. I guess he can find a civil rights attorney and sue the city, but it is one big mess no matter how you look at it. It is not worth my time and thousands of dollars to make a statement. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 "A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police... He's scheduled for trial in July." What disturbs me most is that the District Attorney has now charged the man. The cops were ignorant of the law at the moment. The DA has had the time to know what is the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 Legal and wise are not synonymous. I can open carry here in WA legally, and I don't suspect I'd have a problem in the little towns around the state. However, I'll guarantee you I'd be stopped in Seattle in a heartbeat. I don't care to push the issue. It has nothing to do with shame, right, wrong, or anything else -- it is the wise thing to do IMHO. I carry concealed everyday. So does Wildcat (in fact she had to use it the other day). Like others have stated, I don't want people to know I'm armed. The fellow in question had the right to do as he did, but now he will be out thousands of dollars in defense of his actions. I guess he can find a civil rights attorney and sue the city, but it is one big mess no matter how you look at it. It is not worth my time and thousands of dollars to make a statement. YMMV. Too bad you don't support his right, or the law, because you feel he was 'unwise'. A case of closet 2nd Amendmentitis. C'mon...so...your right to carry concealed - legally - is 'better' than another individual carrying openly - legally - ? really?? We should support any law that allows the possession, concealed carry, or open carry of firearms. We should not cower to the public's 'fear' but rather do what we can to educate the populace. Reminds me of the guy who went to a public political rally in AZ who had an AR-15. People cried foul about how this encourages public perception against firearms. Hogwash! What it revealed in fact was a person who excercised his right, and posed no threat to anyone. In fact it showed that gun owners and those that wish to exercise their rights actually can do so without incident. It's too bad that this guy might have to spend thousands on a defense case against a law that allows him to excercise his right! I hope that a civil suit is filed and he can use the mucho-bucks he wins that will not only pay for the lawyer costs, but have this incident help promote the proper procedures to deal with this on the police level and create public awareness against fear of law abiding citizens that can legally execise their carry rights - open or concealed - wise or unwise. A right and a law that promotes that right should be upheld GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 "A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police... He's scheduled for trial in July." What disturbs me most is that the District Attorney has now charged the man. The cops were ignorant of the law at the moment. The DA has had the time to know what is the law. I don't see how a charge of reckless endangerment can stick unless he was brandishing. And, if the story in the link is correct, he was attempting to show the officer his permit and ID, which the officer seems to have refused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Too bad you don't support his right, or the law, because you feel he was 'unwise'. A case of closet 2nd Amendmentitis. C'mon...so...your right to carry concealed - legally - is 'better' than another individual carrying openly - legally - ? really?? We should support any law that allows the possession, concealed carry, or open carry of firearms. We should not cower to the public's 'fear' but rather do what we can to educate the populace. Your statement is not only incorrect in its premise, but rude to boot. I think I'll mosey on down the trail and let the folks enjoy their pi$$ing contest without me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Your statement is not only incorrect in its premise, but rude to boot. I think I'll mosey on down the trail and let the folks enjoy their pi$$ing contest without me. No - I wasn't rude...enjoy your trail walk "Does this mean we can't be friends anymore" ~ GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I don't see how a charge of reckless endangerment can stick unless he was brandishing. Nor do I. It's disturbing that he was charged with anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckhorn Woodie Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I don't see how a charge of reckless endangerment can stick unless he was brandishing. And, if the story in the link is correct, he was attempting to show the officer his permit and ID, which the officer seems to have refused. Well it's kind of a catch 22 type thing....When a cop stops you for one reason or another you are not going to win a spiting contest with them on the spot...it will only go down hill...There is a time and place to fight with the law..on the street with a cop holding a gun on you telling you to get down is not the time to tell him he is full of crap. For what ever reason the cop thought he had cause and gave the guy an order and the guy resisted and that is were the charges come from...the guy should have obied the cop and then sued the crap out of him afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Well it's kind of a catch 22 type thing....When a cop stops you for one reason or another you are not going to win a spiting contest with them on the spot...it will only go down hill...There is a time and place to fight with the law..on the street with a cop holding a gun on you telling you to get down is not the time to tell him he is full of crap. For what ever reason the cop thought he had cause and gave the guy an order and the guy resisted and that is were the charges come from...the guy should have obied the cop and then sued the crap out of him afterwards. The cop, with his gun pointed at the guy couldn't have taken five seconds to let the guy finish a sentence and show his permit? Sorry, I can't buy that. A bit of willingness on the part of the cop in this case to listen and verify would have saved a lot of bother all the way around. I also have trouble with wanting to explain, and wanting to show your ID and permit to be called "resisting." Is any questioning of what is going on "resisting?" Again I'm seeing an attitude of "The cop in the field can do no wrong. The citizen has no right to say or question anything." It is getting to the point that the smartest thing anyone can do when a cop says anything to them is instantly say "I want a lawyer." and then shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I wish this thread would go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckhorn Woodie Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 The cop, with his gun pointed at the guy couldn't have taken five seconds to let the guy finish a sentence and show his permit? Sorry, I can't buy that. A bit of willingness on the part of the cop in this case to listen and verify would have saved a lot of bother all the way around. I also have trouble with wanting to explain, and wanting to show your ID and permit to be called "resisting." Is any questioning of what is going on "resisting?" Again I'm seeing an attitude of "The cop in the field can do no wrong. The citizen has no right to say or question anything." It is getting to the point that the smartest thing anyone can do when a cop says anything to them is instantly say "I want a lawyer." and then shut up. I did not say a cop could do no wrong...Cop's can do plenty of wrong..and I can say that with a lot of confidences because I work with so damn many of them...what I said is there is a time and a place...first and foremost if you our are out and about and a cop has a gun in his hand and gives you an order it is best to follow it there will be time later to argue. Now the best cops I know are very polite but have no problem showing a attitude when needed and then there are the ones that think that putting the badge on is the same as having a big "S" on there chest....then you have to take into consideration that 99% of the time a just cop don't know what is going to happen next ...From the story it sounds like the cop was a bit of a A-Hole and from my experiences when dealing with even with a A-Hole cop who has jacked me up mostly from my looks and then found out that I was not who or what they thought I was get very apologetic and polite. I guess what I am trying to say is on the street when dealing with the law let them do there job and if they are screwed up in doing it you will have a chance to argue your point later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadeye Doug Dalton SASS#65449L Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I understand that one needs to obey an officer's commands, but when you are doing something legally it's understandable you might not? Sadly that could get you killed... This is interesting - it seems the officer (s) in this case want to send the message that even though it may be legal to carry, don;t in thier jurisdication: http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun GG ~ When I moved from Long Island, 50 miles east of NYC, a place where I could not even own a handgun, to Phoenix Az., where any resident could carry open without any permit needed, it was quite a shock. Interestingly enough, the only people actually carrying open were the cowboys and the bikers. At every bar there were pickup trucks with a 30-30 lever action rifle in the back window. Most of these trucks displayed three decals: NRA, USMC, & Harley Davidson. No one bothered these trucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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