Chili Ron Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Howdy NKJ, I once had an idea for a IROC T shirt. It would have each year and "CAMARO WINS" after. I could never get excited enuf to go do it.... best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keystone, SASS # 47578 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Well, #1 Define "Stock", #2 Set Up Regulations, #3 Start at local club level, #4 If successful, have TG present at the T.G.Conference for consideration. There you go Mr. J.P.Lower, a plan of action. I know many clubs have special categories at the local level. Some never go beyond a local match some do. We have two locally. "Outlaw", pistols and shotgun from the hip, is being shot at several clubs in the South. "Gunsharp", shoot each stage in a different style; Traditional, Duelist, Double Duelist, Gunfighter & Outlaw. Good luck with your endeavour J.P.Lower. Hasta Luego, Keystone P.S. I did lookup the real Mr. John P. Lower, gunsmith & business man. Do you suppose gunsmiths only repaired firearms? My guess is each had a trick or two for customers whose lives depended on the use of their firearms regardless of which side of the law they represented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Sorry Deuce but that answer just doesnt cut it. The same can be said for almost every cat we shoot,if you want want to wear embroidered pink shirts you can wear them in any existing cat so why ask for a separate one or if you want to shoot one handed, just shoot that way and do not expect a cat of your own? AHHH, are we now talking about the old level playing field thing? If this is the case then perhaps we need to accept that no matter how objectionable the premise, every time we have created a category, we were attempting to create a way of leveling the field amongst a group of like minded shooters. As far as cheating goes, there has always been a percentage of people who just will not play by the rules but I think that number has changed dramatically in modern times. A cheater is a cheater and the last thing a cheater wants is a light shining on him, so make a point of recognizing the cheater and most will disappear. Make the rule, enforce it with huge amounts of vigor and penalty early on and you will find that it begins to self regulate pretty soon. The problem is that we now do not like to call those who are less than honest what they really are! Its just very possible that the last couple of votes has solved the problem for us, people are pretty adamant that they want no new categories period. It would seem that the old attitude of 'just let everyone do what they want' has limited out with the rank and file. For the most part this is a waste of time argument, if the support were out there it wwould happen one day and otherwise we are just giving ole Tex something to snicker about while he enjoys his Sunday morning Cheerios! Bob, are you going to enforce it. The rules for the excisting categories are easy to check and enforce. NOT the case with a stock category. What are we supposed to do, take the shooters word for it. Unfortunantly I have been involved with match administration long enough to know that sadly that does not work either. Who's gonna open the guns up. As a shooter shooting the category do you want someone else inside your guns rooting around? Tell ya what, lay out some rules. I'll offer it at Michigan state shoot. Come on up and I'll put you in charge of checking guns to make sure they fall witin the the rules. I've even got a nice screwdriver set we can use. We will need a complete list of parts and configurations that all legal guns for SASS have in their stock form. Sounds pretty simple to me. lets do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Jackson Turner Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Toothpaste and dryfire? Does that really work I can assure you that it does. Ask a young hack of my acquaintance, called Lead Dispencer, about its efficacy. Although, as the eminent WidderHill has pointed out, to be completely period correct, it really should not be Tartar Control. Unless of course you live in the steppes of Eastern Russia, in which case TATAR control is not only allowed, but up through the 19th Century, actually encouraged. I think I really need to get a cup of coffee now. :-) Cheers, FJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I shot Production class in IPSC, and it was still a 'this gun is better than that model' deal. The goal of stock gun is to flatten the playing field, so here goes: - the guns are owned by the club - they are whatever the club wants to own (NMV's, Smokewagons, Rodeos, whatever) - each shooter shoots the same guns: same caliber, same ammo - the shooter provides the leather and his/her outfit - the shooters pay an extra fee to cover ammo and annual replacement of the guns - this would also allow a new shooter to try the game before buying all of the stuff It does not get much flatter than that. I have shot numerous DCM matches where the club owned loaner Garands. There was nothing special about them other then that they worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Tom, you bring up some interesting points. That would likely be the only way to have a "stock" category. And since the guns would still vary as stock guns do, I guess they would be distributed by some sort of lottery. Then I guess each large match would have to invest a significant amount of $$ to have a State or Regional Match. Or perhaps those who want the category could donate guns? A significant amount of time is spent in transitions such as drawing and holstering. If we are going stock, why would people be allowed their own leather which could be a significant advantage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Make the rule, enforce it with huge amounts of vigor and penalty early on and you will find that it begins to self regulate pretty soon. The problem is that we now do not like to call those who are less than honest what they really are! But just how do you enforce it? How much extra time is it going to add to a match. who is going to do the inspections? Who is going to write the specs on all the different guns used in SASS? It's not as simple as measuring the pine tar on a bat handle. No, it's simply not a practical idea and would be virtually unenforceable, A stock gun category is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 IMO the only thing that would change is there would be more awards to hand out for another category……same folks would still win we would just have more winners…..pretty soon you won’t have to “pick your category wisely” you will just have to show up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 What is this -- t-ball with guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 OK - you have two pistols both the same, except one is brand new 'stock', and the other is a 20 year version, with many rounds through it. They are both stock, but the older one is 'smoothed out' with usage...a poor man's action job (though the expense of many rounds through it is anything but poor )..... so... Stock gun category = waste of time and effort. GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 C-mon, these are the same never ending arguments we went through with the power factors and minimum smoke load rules that many warned would be the end of SASS. They are now non issues at 99.9% of all matches. As I stated earlier, most shooters will play fair if they know and understand the rules while that occasional rogue needs to be eliminated from the game anyway. The very few cases I have seen where someones loads were being criticized were resolved by the next match they participated in. As to my volunteering for the job, well check back a few posts and you will see why I wouldnt, I would not even currently vote for this cat! No doubt in my mind that Keystone has the best solution, if enough want it then let them jump through the hurdles, do the work and the rest of us can just relax and try not to have a heart attack over an uncertain future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 If you wamt to shoot a stock category it's really simple , find some like minded shooters and shoot, but please police yourselves . This is the same way we shoot FCGF, Outlaw, Frontier Cowboy...etc..etc. So easy a caveman could do it. Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I personally think that the advantages anyone gets with a slicked up gun DON'T make him/her any faster than I so this is a non problem. Now let me explain that statement a bit. The super fast or should I say "faster than I" shooters that put the time and monies into an action job and upgrades to their firearms; If you were to collect a random sampling of those folk and me and issue us all "stock guns", they all would whip my tail anyway! So it doesn't really matter if they have a slicked up gun or not. What they are going to trim is an additional 8 seconds per stage after beating me by 45 seconds anyway; Who cares? Not I. With stock weapons I'd still come in at just about the same placing that I presently do because after all, it's the shooter, not necessarily the guns. After reading all the posts, the best fix to the "stock" issue would have to be 1 don't do it. or 2 quote below. Smithy. I shot Production class in IPSC, and it was still a 'this gun is better than that model' deal.The goal of stock gun is to flatten the playing field, so here goes: - the guns are owned by the club - they are whatever the club wants to own (NMV's, Smokewagons, Rodeos, whatever) - each shooter shoots the same guns: same caliber, same ammo - the shooter provides the leather and his/her outfit - the shooters pay an extra fee to cover ammo and annual replacement of the guns - this would also allow a new shooter to try the game before buying all of the stuff It does not get much flatter than that. I have shot numerous DCM matches where the club owned loaner Garands. There was nothing special about them other then that they worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Damm I still dont understand,I would shoot because it is fun.I dont care if D S is shooting in my cat or Possum Skinner is shooting my cat or anyone else is in my cat.I try to shoot Gun Fighter because I have a ball. When they shoot 15 or 18 stages. I will cheer for them and take my 45+ or more stage.Why in the world would anyone be upset because a guys kicks your butt with slicked up guys or stock guns.Is this game not for the fun to get together with your friends and have fun.I see some one like Slick shoot a stage and I am so pumped to see people do that well.I think all the guys that want a stock cat dont put the time in that the fast shooter do. I know some may want to win at all cost but if you watch T bone shoot, he has fun and thats what it is all about.He make everyone around have fun.There are to many people in sass that want to have fun.Sure I would love to have a slicked up 73, but I cant so I like to see Slick run the 73.I dont think he is a cheater for having a better and faster gun than me. Damm pards cant we just play the game .It is to much fun not to enjoy what we have the right to do.Man you never know when you cant do it anymore because of health or something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Policing a "Stock Gun" category be a lot like herding cats Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 It could be as hard as ya make it!! Outta the box Rugers... No Springs!! (slip hammer away!!) Marlin... No Springs!! (If ya finally mandated a "92" you would hear the whine over the rumble at Sturgis!!) Baikal... Easy to police as it pops half closed every time ya open it!! ( @$%#! ) Establish a power factor... 100? STS shotshells 1 1/8oz. 1235fps (No recoil reducers!!) Or... Ya could allow 73's and wonder it there is a 1st gen in it and lightened springs, allow all handguns and naturally weakened leaf springs (Really I just left it cocked for 6 months ), and any non-racy 97? Ha!! Sounds impossible What would it prove... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four Eyes Henry Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 In Germany they have different categories like 1890, 1880 and 1870. 1870 : cap and ball, no short stroke and hammer guns, BP(subs) only.(min. cal. cap&ball .36, rifle (.40(38-40) 1880 : clones, no short stroke and hammer guns, BP and nitro.(min cal .40(38-40) 1890 : clones, Rugers etc, short stroke, 1892's etc, trombone and hammerless guns. Nitro and BP.(most shoot .38's) Soooo, they have their "stockgun" cat. in 1870 and 1880 and the speedy's are in 1890. 1880 was intended as a BP cat with nitro as sub cat, but I believe nitro is the biggest of all cats now. Every cat is also duelist, gunfighter and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crooked jake,4371 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Policing a "Stock Gun" category be a lot like herding cats Coffinmaker yeah or helium balloons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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