Jackson Rose, SASS #45478 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 It appears that some cops find it easy to shoot people and can use any means to justify it. And it appears other cops find it easy to support shootings and rationalize it the same way. SCOTUS has found many times that use of deadly force by police officers is justified when the officer has the reasonable belief that he or she is about to seriously injured or killed. The finding is based on a totality of circumstances which include but are not limited to: does the offender have the means and the opportunity, or did the officer reasonably believe so? All shootings are bad. No cop that I ever worked with or around wanted to shoot anybody, but to make sure you went home you had to be willing. There is a big difference in the. The sad fact is that so many people have no respect for authority. If the 13 year old had done as he was told instead of presenting the threat of deadly force he would probably not have been shot. Police work on the streets is not like TV or movies, you don't have seconds to make a decision, but fractions of. I never shot a human but the closest I ever came was because of an airsoft gun wielded by a 13 year old. I had good cover and waited a split second and the kid dropped his fake PPK. If I had shot him I would have done so believing that he was armed with a deadly weapon and meant to harm me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 It appears that some cops find it easy to shoot people and can use any means to justify it. And it appears other cops find it easy to support shootings and rationalize it the same way. So Hacker... how do ya feel 'bout banning the flat sheets~? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 It appears that some cops find it easy to shoot people and can use any means to justify it. And it appears other cops find it easy to support shootings and rationalize it the same way. Believe what you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Some rules to avoid becoming shot by LE: 1) Do comply with an officers orders 2) Don't point anything that may be mistaken for a gun at a LEO 3) Don't run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Some rules to avoid becoming shot by LE: 1) Do comply with an officers orders 2) Don't point anything that may be mistaken for a gun at a LEO 3) Don't run And teach your kids that they stop and drop anything they are holding, put their hands up and don't move....whether they speak or understand English or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. P. Cobb Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 As usual, Mark, you get it right; it's sad when the Non-Leo's try to solve a case from written text. Thanks for your insight, U 2 UB. ________________ From a linked article in the page the original post links to: You hide behind a vehicle when I tell you to come out, and pull what looks like a gun, and I'll shoot you down right there. This was NO bad shoot on the part of the cops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. P. Cobb Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Sad isn't it? ______________________ Believe what you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. P. Cobb Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Which side of the Law are you really on? ___________________ It appears that some cops find it easy to shoot people and can use any means to justify it. And it appears other cops find it easy to support shootings and rationalize it the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 And teach your kids that they stop and drop anything they are holding, put their hands up and don't move....whether they speak or understand English or not. Exactly! GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry T Harrison Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Sorry HTH I see no easy way to make a shooting of a 13 year old kid a justifiable action. Please take that as meaning a cop should investigate a bit more before shooting the kid vs shooting an adult. Given the same conditions. Or do you believe that a 13 year old kid is always a serious threat? Excuse me! This isn't television Stop and investigate someone pointing a gun at me, you have got to be kidding, Hesitation gets you dead very quickly and in the dark a 5’10 teenager looks a whole like an adult in the dark, and I can assure you teenage gang bangers will kill you in an instant. As far as your comment that officers are looking for reasons to shoot someone that is just plain stupid. Do you have any idea what happens in the aftermath of even the cleanest shooting? IAD investigations, Grand Juries and the inevitable civil suit. will drag on for years. And please don’t anyone take this as racist because it’s not but god forbid that you shoot a black actor, now you will be dealing with a definite Justice Department investigation spurred on by the NAACP, and a mass media frenzy. I do not know of any officer involved in a shooting that didn’t regret it for the rest of his career Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Or do you believe that a 13 year old kid is always a serious threat? Because we all know that a teenager can't be a serious threat <_< Teen Murders Officer Teen Shot Officers Teen Shoots at Officer Teen Shoots Officer Teen Shoots at Officer, then involved in second shooting Officer shot 6 times by teen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Lawman Mark, thanks for the examples. However NONE of the examples include a 13 yearold shooter. The youngest was 15. The two oldest were 18 and 19 years. An age where they could serve legally in this nations military. To me that makes them responsible for their own actions and are outside the domain of the original posted article. HTH, according to the article about the shooting, the suspect/victim was 5'7" tall NOT 5' 10" as you mistakenly posted. For some of the other postors who seem to post about following cop orders. That just indicates that the courts and cops have taken the next steps towards a police state. One more thing here; The original article was about having toy gun makers paint their products bright colors so cops could identify them easily and not have to shoot kids. This implies that lawmakers see the shooting as wrong. Yet some of the replies to my posts have indicated that shooting kids is ok under some circumstances. Basic question is shooting a kid a good thing or a bad thing. Does the decal on the door of a cop car say protect and serve or should it say something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Would you rather see more dead cops, Hacker? Painting the guns is a stupid solution, but so is trying to evaluate the level of a threat and the age of a kid in the dark when it appears that he/she/it has a gun and is pointing it at you. Your position is unrealistic, inexperienced, and infantile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Lawman Mark, thanks for the examples. However NONE of the examples include a 13 yearold shooter. The youngest was 15. The two oldest were 18 and 19 years. An age where they could serve legally in this nations military. To me that makes them responsible for their own actions and are outside the domain of the original posted article. HTH, according to the article about the shooting, the suspect/victim was 5'7" tall NOT 5' 10" as you mistakenly posted. For some of the other postors who seem to post about following cop orders. That just indicates that the courts and cops have taken the next steps towards a police state. One more thing here; The original article was about having toy gun makers paint their products bright colors so cops could identify them easily and not have to shoot kids. This implies that lawmakers see the shooting as wrong. Yet some of the replies to my posts have indicated that shooting kids is ok under some circumstances. Basic question is shooting a kid a good thing or a bad thing. Does the decal on the door of a cop car say protect and serve or should it say something else. Oh come on...you really don't think the "13 vs 15 years of age" argument is even going to start moving, little on have any validity at all? 5'7", 200 POUNDS. Clyde Barrow was 5'4" and thin built. Audie Murphy was 5'5" weighed 110. Both of them could and would shoot. I shoot with a lot of shooters ranging from preteens to shooters in their 80s that don't weigh that much, and/or are not that tall. Size or age is not a deciding factor in whether someone will shoot you, and in the split second when you see someone pointing a gun at you, you don't have time to ask their age anyway. Having to shoot anybody at all is not good. Being put into the position of using deadly force because of being in fear for your life, or the life of those you protect is worse. Protect and serve is the motto of the LAPD. It's a great motto, and all cops strive to fulfill it. Shooting an individual pointing what looks like a real gun at you doesn't mean you haven't served or protected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Basic question is shooting a kid a good thing or a bad thing. No one here has implied that shooting a kid is a good thing. That is apparently your perception of our point that it is extremely difficult under stress to determine whether or not to pull the trigger. You have milliseconds to make that decision. If you're wrong and don't pull the trigger, you don't get to go home. If you're wrong and do pull the trigger, your life will be changed forevermore. If you're right and do pull the trigger, it will still change your life. Plenty of cops have left law enforcement after a justified shooting. It takes a toll on you. There's no such thing as a "good" shoot. But you seem to have your mind made up based on your own feelings and I doubt that any discussion will change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Mr Hacker, many of the posters here are present or former law enforcement professionals, long on training and experience. Okay... so I have to ask the questions: 1) May I ask what you do for a living, what your educational or experience background may be that could be applied to your stance? And... 2) If YOU were in that situation - on a dark street in an area known for heavy gang activity and shootings, having seen apparently armed men scatter, and you spot one of these apparently armed men (remember, it's dark, and the dude's big!) taking cover behind a car, and you order him out, and he brandishes a weapon (remember, it's too dark and he's too distant for you to read the Mattell label on the gun), and you are in the open... What would YOU do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 AS stated before " there is no such thing as a GOOD shoot , only ones that are deamed nessary . It will change you forever when you have to do it . Having to watch a friend being down will also change you . You would just as soon be down yourself as to see someone else down . There are no tidy awnsers to this , only shades of gray , and a lifetime of remenbering , in eather case . CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Would you rather see more dead cops, Hacker? Painting the guns is a stupid solution, but so is trying to evaluate the level of a threat and the age of a kid in the dark when it appears that he/she/it has a gun and is pointing it at you. Your position is unrealistic, inexperienced, and infantile. Yep...most of the guns show here Pink guns are real honest to gawd firearms. Hacker, would you take a chance and assume that they are all toys? Browning had produced the Buckmark with a red anodized frame. You can find bright green and orange handguns and rifles. Would you assume that those were toys when, in the night, in the dark, someone of average adult height and on the hefty side whom you were chasing popped up from cover and pointed one at you? As with most of the cases, if the young man had complied with the cops orders, it could have been dealt with quietly and without injury. But the young man took away the ability of the cop to determine identity and age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 After my last post I finally saw the answer that I had not seen prior. That being best expressed by Lawman Mark. Having to shoot anybody at all is not good. Being put into the position of using deadly force because of being in fear for your life, or the life of those you protect is worse. Up to that point all I had heard was that the shoot was good and that it was the right thing to do. No expression of remorse, hesitation nor regret. Now I hear that many have at least some sense of feeling for their fellow man. As for whether the whole idea of this thread from the original article is a good idea it is not. I have never said it was. It still comes down to a cop making a judgement call right or wrong to shoot a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jittery Jim Jonah, SASS #64913L Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 After my last post I finally saw the answer that I had not seen prior. That being best expressed by Lawman Mark. Up to that point all I had heard was that the shoot was good and that it was the right thing to do. No expression of remorse, hesitation nor regret. Now I hear that many have at least some sense of feeling for their fellow man. As for whether the whole idea of this thread from the original article is a good idea it is not. I have never said it was. It still comes down to a cop making a judgement call right or wrong to shoot a person. A perfect example of one persons definition of 'good'.... Good in the eyes of the law, the public, civil law, and the people involved are all diferent.... The tone of your responses indicate you think the officer(s) involved should be punished for what happened. And THAT'S where you and everyone else part ways... Everyone looses in this situation. I am sorry you have had bad experiences that color your perceptions... JJJ-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 After my last post I finally saw the answer that I had not seen prior. That being best expressed by Lawman Mark. Up to that point all I had heard was that the shoot was good and that it was the right thing to do. NObody here has said "Good Shoot" except you. No expression of remorse, hesitation nor regret. Now I hear that many have at least some sense of feeling for their fellow man. How nice of you to think that some of us might have human feelings. Despite what you may think, the reason most of got into law enforcement was that we have "some sense of feeling" for our fellow man. As for whether the whole idea of this thread from the original article is a good idea it is not. I have never said it was. The idea of the thread was to point out some stupid proposed legislation and that it's dumb to require non-guns to be painted to tell them from real guns. It still comes down to a cop making a judgement call right or wrong to shoot a person. That's what we've been saying all along. And it's not an easy decision and you have to live with the results for the rest of your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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