Bart Solo Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 I was able to do a little live fire practice last evening. After it was over I spent a few more minutes talking to some of my fellow club members about live fire practice. That discussion started me thinking. Long Hunter ends his tips by reminding us that it's always better to be smooth than fast, yet in live fire practice there is a real tendancy to push your self to shoot as fast as possible. Here is the question, during live fire practice is there more to be gained from consciously trying to shoot fast or from trying to perfect smooth and fluid motions. I know that you gain speed by being smooth, but in practice there seems to be a school that says you should just go hell bent for election? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 I was able to do a little live fire practice last evening. After it was over I spent a few more minutes talking to some of my fellow club members about live fire practice. That discussion started me thinking. Long Hunter ends his tips by reminding us that it's always better to be smooth than fast, yet in live fire practice there is a real tendancy to push your self to shoot as fast as possible. Here is the question, during live fire practice is there more to be gained from consciously trying to shoot fast or from trying to perfect smooth and fluid motions. I know that you gain speed by being smooth, but in practice there seems to be a school that says you should just go hell bent for election? You said it all right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Smooth & develop Muscle Memory with transistions between arms. Speed will follow. BTW; it is easier said than done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Again Bart.. I ain't the fastest in the West .. I can remember myself asking the very questions your asking on this wire.. and the fellow cowpokes will help.. I've gotten to where I can shoot a stage in the mid twenty's... like I said before I try to go as fast as I can... I feel during the stage that I'm as clumsy as can be and grasping for things that aren't there... When I'm done.. some of my fellow shooters say "Man your smooth"... I look at them kinda puzzled and say to myself "I was?" I guess when you get to a point.. with the transitions... you may look smooth whether you feel it or not.. Rance Just my thinkin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Bart, this is always an interesting topic. For me, I've had to practice hard just to TRY and obtain both. I've had some good pistol runs where some folks would comment that it looks like I shots those pistols nearly 'effortlessly'. Well, none of those fellers was around during the times I was putting hours of effort into making it look like that. Im my opin, there are gains to be obtained practicing both being smooth and fast. Being smooth on a stage can produce results in better times, particularly if your a jerky, type shooter. BUT, .....pure speed isn't acquired just by trying to become smooth. AND, pure speed doesn't have to be unsmooth either. Watching our Top Guns, it seems like they have mastered both. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 First, you can't miss fast enough to win. The object is to hit EVERY target you shoot at. The only way to hit all the targets CONSISTENTLY is to be smooth. You need to practice with a timer. It's the only measure you have to gage your progress. Speed ONLY comes with practice. As you shoot, you may find it beneficial to actually say "front sight - trigger. Slow down to the point you hit ALL your targets. That's you starting point. From there, each time you practice, work on acquiring the front sight on the target quicker. If the front sight is on the lawn, your going to mow grass. That simple. If your having a bad day at practice, can't hit anything .......... quit. You'll only teach bad things to your muscle memory. You will NOT shoot your way out of a bad day. See if you can find a copy of "Breaking the Shot" by Doc Shapiro. It will help you a bunch. Dry fire practice will help with front sight. Use Snap Caps. Oh, the original question. Smooth. Smooth will beat jervious and nerkey every time Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 The correct answer is, of course, both. But there's much more to it. Your dry fire practice should be transitions and SG loading, as well as fundamentals, not to mention some time spent on pure operational speed. You should do some transition 1-shot drills live fire for verification that you really are picking up a correct sight picture for each shot. To paraphrase Kanada Kidd: "To those that say you should just be smooth, or "slow down" to hit the targets - where do you think speed comes from? In order to shoot fast, you have to practice shooting fast!" Additionally, it's much easier to learn to shoot accurately than it is to learn to shoot fast. Assuming that your fundamentals are sound (this is vitally important to learning to shoot fast and accurately), You should also spend some time live fire shooting just as fast as you can operate the gun. Change the bank of targets you're shooting at often (size, elevation, distance, space between, target shape, etc.) otherwise you'll end up shooting to the pattern and not the targets. Rhythm shooting is very bad and a difficult habit to break. Mix in some of the Steel Challenge (http://en.wikipedia....hallenge_Stages) stage setups as well, they're fun and will force you into your sights. Now here's the reason for spending some of your time at full gas. Assuming you're like most shooters, you can operate the actions of your guns faster than you can reliably pick up sight pictures. Shooting beyond your current ability to see will force your eyes to try to keep up. This builds up the muscles in your eyes and eventually you will be able to see at the pace you are shooting. When that happens, it's time to ramp up the speed again. You have been through the "Tips and Help" section of my web site? http://www.jspublications.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Trampas, SASS # 55781 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 If I can get in the 40's for a stage, I'm thrilled to death, that don't happen to often, but I don't practice either, I'm out to have FUN, oh by the way, I'm shooting duelist, this will be my second year of it, I look back at scores from years past when I was shooting 2 handed, I'm happy with what I'm doing for scores, they are about the same, granted different scenarios but I'm happy. All for now JD Trampas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Hey Bart, A few years ago... I watched Lead Dispensor on some CAS TV show... and was amazed at the economy of movement that fella had. It seemed as if he was going much slower than the actual time that he shot. Deceivingly fast... just phenomenal. You could tell by the way he moved... he had to have practiced "smooth and deliberate"... and not succumb to his primal instincts for speed. He's the kinda fella... that would expeditiously lull his opponent into oblivion. ts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 Doc, I am reading them again. Great tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Hey Bart, A few years ago... I watched Lead Dispensor on some CAS TV show... and was amazed at the economy of movement that fella had. It seemed as if he was going much slower than the actual time that he shot. Deceivingly fast... just phenomenal. You could tell by the way he moved... he had to have practiced "smooth and deliberate"... and not succumb to his primal instincts for speed. He's the kinda fella... that would expeditiously lull his opponent into oblivion. ts TS, you should have a chat with him. I understand that raw speed was heavily practiced (in addition to other times spent working on just smooth). Shooting faster than vision is very important to building speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 I should add something to my previous diatribe. If you aren't putting in lots of time on transitions, fundamentals (Bud and I used to practice shooting spent 38 cases at 10 yards), SG loading, and speed work, then practicing smooth is where you'll find your best gains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 Doc, one of the problems rank and file shooters like me have is makinig sure our fundamentals are sound. If we are lucky we can find a good shooter to learn from, but not all good shooters are good teachers. If a shooter doesn't have the time or money to spend at your school, how does he ever know whether his fundamentals are sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Doc, one of the problems rank and file shooters like me have is makinig sure our fundamentals are sound. If we are lucky we can find a good shooter to learn from, but not all good shooters are good teachers. If a shooter doesn't have the time or money to spend at your school, how does he ever know whether his fundamentals are sound? You can't shoot a 1" group at 25 yards without solid fundamentals. Do you have a video camera? Tape yourself shooting groups at the range and then take a look at it. How's your stance (athletic)? Grip firm but not too tight? Clear/in focus front sight? Where's the tension in your body while shooting (not in your face, should be only in the arm holding the gun)? Once you can shoot tight groups, then practice shooting groups again but draw the pistol for each shot. Video your draw. Make sure the gun comes up before going out. You should find that front sight in peripheral vision very early. That gives you time to fine tune as you push the gun into the target. Are you rotating between targets low in your legs or are you moving your arms? Should be low in the legs (see my article on "Proper Platform"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 TS, you should have a chat with him. I understand that raw speed was heavily practiced (in addition to other times spent working on just smooth). Shooting faster than vision is very important to building speed. I can believe it... But whatever he did... you KNOW that he paid his dues... in doin' it. Thinkin' back... just remembered what you said 'bout Kanada Kidd... and I used to get his newsletter. In one of his letters... KK indicated that you can't get fast... if you don't practice "fast". Also heard Badlands Bud say the same thing. Wished I could chat with LD... just a great young man... good head on his shoulders... and an excellent representative for ANY shootin' sport. Bart Solo needs to visit them videos of LD... and all them others. ts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I remember what Spence said to me years ago: Shoot as fast as you can so long as your misses don't add up to more then your raw time. It's easy to slow down a bit if ya need to...hard to speed up a bit when you're already shooting as fast as you can. YMMV... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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