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1911 loading problem


Badlands Beady

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Thankee, Leviathan. Folks, I try to know whereof I speak when I post. But like Manatee says -- it's your extractor and slide release, go ahead and abuse 'em all ye care to.

 

When the 1911 was designed, it was designed for the horse cavalry. That's why originals had lanyard loops on both the butt of the gun and the base pad of the mag. That's why the grip safety was incorporated, not because JMB thot one was needed but because the military insisted on it.

 

And that's why we have the slide release. The gun was designed to be a one handed gun because the other hand would be busy with the reins. OK if'n ye are a horseback, go ahead and drop the slide with the release. Ground pounders should use the slingshot method and save a lot of wear and tear on parts.

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Thankee, Leviathan. Folks, I try to know whereof I speak when I post. But like Manatee says -- it's your extractor and slide release, go ahead and abuse 'em all ye care to.

 

When the 1911 was designed, it was designed for the horse cavalry. That's why originals had lanyard loops on both the butt of the gun and the base pad of the mag. That's why the grip safety was incorporated, not because JMB thot one was needed but because the military insisted on it.

 

And that's why we have the slide release. The gun was designed to be a one handed gun because the other hand would be busy with the reins. OK if'n ye are a horseback, go ahead and drop the slide with the release. Ground pounders should use the slingshot method and save a lot of wear and tear on parts.

Excuse me - If the gun was designed to be used that way - why is it wrong to use it that way?

 

What is different about using your finger to depress the slide release and allowing the slide to go forward under spring pressure and

pulling the slide back a fraction of an inch, letting the slide stop/release fall under it's own power, and then letting the slide go

forward under spring pressure?

 

There is NO mechanical difference. The only, somewhat specious argument, is that the pressure of the slide release being pushed down

will somehow wear out the notch in the slide. I'm not trying to be picky here - but I hate it when people make crap up. What is the

difference between the two methods - I've shot these guns for 40 years now - both in the military in in IPSC competition, and I've never

heard of anything like this, except as a short term fad in some of the gun schools.

 

Is there any evidence that this is a fact, rather than a habit being justified?

 

Enquiring minds want to know?

 

Shadow Catcher

 

BTW - some of us come to cowboy after many decades of using 1911's, so not everyone here is a hayseed. We've shot them, built them, had them

built for us by the "Names" and used them for more than holes in paper or making steel ring.

 

I built this one a few years back, a good friend did the sight machining . . . It's had a good 10K+ rounds or more through it,

still holds sub 1.25" groups, and I always use the slide release to chamber a fresh round.

My .45 Colt

 

YMMV . . . .

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I still maintain that given good ammunition and proper shooting stance the most likely culprit is a bad magazine. A bad magazine also happens to be the cheapest and easiet fix also. I have seen changing magazines fix autos numerous times along with having a bad magazine with a nib Gold Cup myself. Here is a read for you to consider;

 

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/articles/1911magazinepart1.html

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Excuse me - If the gun was designed to be used that way - why is it wrong to use it that way?

 

What is different about using your finger to depress the slide release and allowing the slide to go forward under spring pressure and

pulling the slide back a fraction of an inch, letting the slide stop/release fall under it's own power, and then letting the slide go

forward under spring pressure?

 

There is NO mechanical difference. The only, somewhat specious argument, is that the pressure of the slide release being pushed down

will somehow wear out the notch in the slide. .....

 

The "theory" is that one, using the slide stop is "fine motor" and under stress (such as a gunfight) fine motor control kind of goes out the window so us LE instructors teach "gross motor" skills that hold up better under stress like...

 

To release the slide from slide lock, grasp the rear serrations with the four fingers and heel of the hand pull back with that hand and release. This also gives you a quarter inch or so of slide travel and (the theory is) that this "extry" spring power also promotes better functioning.

 

Having taught several decades worth of students this technique I know that it works. I suppose that using the slide stop will wear out a part or two but parts can be replaced when they break, no? Of course I shot IPSC for many years and I still shoot (and carry) an auto daily and guess which technique I normally use under stress? I work the slide stop with my trigger finger! (probably because A it's faster and B I always dun it that way...Kinda hard to teach some old dogs new tricks) :wacko:

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Shadowcatcher did you not read post #35: Manatee's contribution to this thread? Using the slide release accelerates wear and hastens parts breakage. I do not choose to do so. So long as I have two operating hands and arms I will continue to use the slingshot method. You of course are perfectly free to continue to use the slide release. More power to you.

 

Different strokes for different folks...

 

Nobody called you a hayseed. My first 1911 I got in 69 compliments of my Uncle Sammy. Fortunately it served mostly as a symbol of being a DAT (dumb @$$ tanker). My main back up to Ma Deuce against Mr Charles was an H&R M16A1 or a 79 or a grease gun...never needed any of 'em as Ma never failed me.

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What is different about using your finger to depress the slide release and allowing the slide to go forward under spring pressure and

pulling the slide back a fraction of an inch, letting the slide stop/release fall under it's own power, and then letting the slide go

forward under spring pressure?

 

There is NO mechanical difference. The only, somewhat specious argument, is that the pressure of the slide release being pushed down

will somehow wear out the notch in the slide. I'm not trying to be picky here - but I hate it when people make crap up. Is there any evidence that this is a fact, rather than a habit being justified?

 

Shadow Catcher

 

 

It is usually the slide stop that will become rounded, not the notch in the slide. I aquired a Bersa .380 in a trade that had the slide stop rounded off from releasing the slide. It would no longer lock the slide back after the last round. You could manually enguage the slide lock, but once you insert a magazine or bumped the gun the slide would go forward. I ended up having to file the slide stop back to square to fix it. Of course the metal used is probably softer than on most quality 1911's, but there is definitely a mechanical difference between using the slide stop and sling-shotting the slide.

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Not everyone is a hayseed on this board. BUT, the group is primarily interested in revolvers, lever rifles and shotguns designed for a specific game. I'd certainly look at other fora that specialize in the 1911 or other games utilizing the 1911.

 

I wouldn't come here to find out about sniper optics, night vision gear, claybusting, kayaks or hemorroid remedies...but apparently some feel comfortable doing so.

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What is different about using your finger to depress the slide release and allowing the slide to go forward under spring pressure and

pulling the slide back a fraction of an inch, letting the slide stop/release fall under it's own power, and then letting the slide go

forward under spring pressure?

 

 

My reading comprehension has always been suspect so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. I don't believe anyone said not to use the slide release. What was warned against was using it when there's already a round in the chamber. Dropping the slide on an already loaded chamber causes the extractor to have to deform and go around the case rim ranter than have the rim slide up and behind the extractor as it's being loaded from the magazine. This deformation puts a bunch of stress on the extractor that it was never designed to handle.

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My reading comprehension has always been suspect so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. I don't believe anyone said not to use the slide release. What was warned against was using it when there's already a round in the chamber. Dropping the slide on an already loaded chamber causes the extractor to have to deform and go around the case rim ranter than have the rim slide up and behind the extractor as it's being loaded from the magazine. This deformation puts a bunch of stress on the extractor that it was never designed to handle.

Philly Slim - Agreed - that's a bad practice.

 

The slingshot method has it's adherents - it's the same muscle memory pattern used in Tap-Rack-Bang drills-

so it has it's value.

 

I've never heard of any reason not to use the slide release as a slide release . . . being an engineer and a

gun nut - I like to learn new facts, so if there are any out there I would love to know them.

 

I've heard of poor quality firearms having parts deform, but not of any 1911 wearing out parts using the

slide release to release the slide.

 

The nice thing about this site is that there are a lot of people who know more than just CAS, and among friends

one can at least start a line of inquiry before either exhausting the knowledge-base or being told to go look

on some other site.

 

Now I will agree with Manatee about one thing - there is no one here I'll ask about Hemorroid remedies . . .it seems

they flare up extra often around here . . . .

 

Shadow Catcher

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One think I've never used is them Wilson recoil buffers. Never saw a need in a properly sprung gun.

 

Hemorroids? I heard half a lemon twisted jest so works well.

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My reading comprehension has always been suspect so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. I don't believe anyone said not to use the slide release. What was warned against was using it when there's already a round in the chamber. Dropping the slide on an already loaded chamber causes the extractor to have to deform and go around the case rim ranter than have the rim slide up and behind the extractor as it's being loaded from the magazine. This deformation puts a bunch of stress on the extractor that it was never designed to handle.

 

Keep working on those skills. I most certainly WAS advocating NOT using the slide release except in an actual one hand emergency or a drill. Others went on to explain that using the slide release routinely (instead of in emergency situations only) accelerates wear on certain parts and could lead to breakage. As Manatee and others chimed in and agreed, the slide should never be dropped on a loose round manually placed in the chamber. That's with either method, sling shot or slide release. ALL rounds should always be chambered from the mag. Two different albeit related issues. Concentrate.

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Keep working on those skills. I most certainly WAS advocating NOT using the slide release except in an actual one hand emergency or a drill. Others went on to explain that using the slide release routinely (instead of in emergency situations only) accelerates wear on certain parts and could lead to breakage.

 

Ah, in that case I agree with ShadowCatcher. John Browning was a much smarter man than I'll ever be. If he designed that part for a purpose, I'm gonna use it for that purpose. In addition, the Air Force taught me for 23 years to practice the way you're gonna fight. In a real fight I'm gonna use my strong hand thumb to drop the empty mag, my off hand to insert a full mag, use my strong hand thumb to drop the slide using the slide stop lever while I'm reacquiring my grip with both hands.

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Ah yes, the fightin' Air Force. Too late wise, I wisht I'da been a flyboy livin' in an a/c'ed quonset hut and sending the officers off to battle. Have you heard that the Israelis, another fightin' bunch, use the slingshot method?

 

Apologies to the OP for veering the string so far OT for so long.

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One think I've never used is them Wilson recoil buffers. Never saw a need in a properly sprung gun.

 

Hemorroids? I heard half a lemon twisted jest so works well.

D'Accord - hate them useless full length recoil guide rods too! Another way to part a yuppie from his money - but what ever - some like em - and

if it floats their boat, well God Bless their little hearts . . . .

 

Shadow Catcher

 

p.s. - I'll take your word for it on the lemon stuff . . .

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Ah yes, the fightin' Air Force. Too late wise, I wisht I'da been a flyboy livin' in an a/c'ed quonset hut and sending the officers off to battle. Have you heard that the Israelis, another fightin' bunch, use the slingshot method?

 

Apologies to the OP for veering the string so far OT for so long.

 

I believe the technical term for that is "Meow".

 

SC

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Been trying to stay out of this, shooting techniques discussed on the wire are just like asking about gunsmiths or favorite gun leather some folks get down right hostile! I drop the slide by using the slide stop lever, a real famous 1911 gunsmith and firearms instructors Larry Vickers who has built more 1911 than most people have seen, advocates and demonstrates the use of slid stop battery! If its good enough for one of the premiere 1911 gunsmiths its good enough for me. Watch his shows Tactical arms, or weaponology on the military channel that is how he gets his 1911 in the fight.

Rafe (let the stones be thrown) :FlagAm:

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Let me assure all that I have the utmost respect for decorated vet Larry Vickers, and I sure do enjoy all his shows. That goes for the US Air Force as well, a little good-natured inter-service rivalry is always good clean fun. For truly "nothing can stop the US Air Force".

 

But me and the Israelis will stick with the sling shot method. In addition to the above-mentioned reasons, it's just easier for me and me ole arthritic thumb. YMMV.

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Simmer down kids. Lone Dog and Manatee are correct. I "know" the proper way to put a 1911 into battery, and yes, I do occasionally choose to ignore it when I load that particular gun and it's completely empty. Which is extremely rare. 30 years and it ain't broke yet. When conditions and circumstances allow, Lone Dog's described "slingshot" method is the one I employ, even without thinking about it. Lone Dog's experience exceeds mine by a year... so I'll defer to his greater wisdom.

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Although... if doin' what you've always done, doesn't yield the result needed, is continuing to utilize them not the definition of insanity?

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Hi.

 

Remember me? I'm the OP.

 

First, thanks to all of you. It's been both interesting and fun to just sit back and follow the conversation.

 

Just to refresh everyone's memory, this particular 1911 has never fired a round, and I'm the original owner. I've owned and fired 1911s before so I've got an idea how they work, but only down to the field-strip for cleaning level.

 

I have tried four different magazines (from 3 manufacturers - two of the mags came with the gun) and two different types of ammo: HP and RN. I slam the mag into the gun, pull the slide all the way back to where it stops, and let go. The bullet's nose does not enter the chamber, but goes slightly nose-down and rams at a right angle into what I guess is called the ramp (the interior front side of the grip, just below the chamber). I then pull the slide all the way back, hit the mag release, and the mag drops out of the gun. At this point the bullet is still in the mag, pushed forward about 1/8" or so, and is still slightly nose-down compared to the rest of the bullets in the clip.

 

Every now and then, a bullet will actually make it into the chamber, but never smoothly, and the slide will sometimes stop with the entire cartridge only halfway chambered. If this happens, I give it an extra push with my off hand. If a bullet does get into the chamber, I again pull the slide all the way back, the bullet successfuly ejects, I let the slide go, and the next bullet will jam as before. Maybe one in 30 rounds will successfuly chamber, but I have never successfully chambered two rounds in a row.

 

From what I've gathered in the thread, it looks like the extractor may be the problem? What does it take to fix? This is a brand-new gun (although I've owned it for maybe two months, now), and even returning it it for repair/replacement is going to cost. Getting it repaired "locally" may be the cheapest way to go. No matter how you look at it, I'm pi**ed.

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BB - just tuning the extractor should take a good 1911 smith less than an hour and cost you about $40. Doesn't mean you will find one who will charge that, though! With my experience with an Armscor built gun (I've got an RIA), I would certainly have the smith take a look at the barrel to frame match up, too. I too beleive you will find that the extractor has too much tension, or the hook does not have enough clearance, to let the rim of the cartridge slip up easily during the feed cycle, as it comes up from the magazine.

 

Good luck, GJ

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...Just to refresh everyone's memory, this particular 1911 has never fired a round, and I'm the original owner. I've owned and fired 1911s before so I've got an idea how they work, but only down to the field-strip for cleaning level...

 

From what I've gathered in the thread, it looks like the extractor may be the problem? What does it take to fix? This is a brand-new gun (although I've owned it for maybe two months, now), and even returning it it for repair/replacement is going to cost. Getting it repaired "locally" may be the cheapest way to go. No matter how you look at it, I'm pi**ed.

 

You can confirm the extractor diagnosis quickly.

 

Do you have another 1911? Know someone who does?

 

If you can field strip the gun then you can exchange the extractor in a matter of minutes. The Philippine guns are pretty close to mil-spec and use a basketful of off the shelf parts.

 

Try a known good extractor from a working gun rather than a new or second hand part. That should tell you right away if your extractor is the problem.

 

If the gun continues to malfunction in the same way, your problem is likely an incorrect mag well and/or ramp angle. Definitely a QC/ warranty issue.

 

 

 

Olen

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What result is needed?

 

I'm still trying to grok the "meow" comment.

 

So much for "greater wisdom"...

I usually say something like that when we get those inter-service cat calls going on!

 

I was U.S.A.F., my ex was Navy, my no. 1 son is Army Guard.

 

When someone speaks jive of another branch we say they're kitty cat jealous - thus meow!

 

 

Shadow Catcher

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Hi.

 

Remember me? I'm the OP.

 

First, thanks to all of you. It's been both interesting and fun to just sit back and follow the conversation.

 

Just to refresh everyone's memory, this particular 1911 has never fired a round, and I'm the original owner. I've owned and fired 1911s before so I've got an idea how they work, but only down to the field-strip for cleaning level.

 

I have tried four different magazines (from 3 manufacturers - two of the mags came with the gun) and two different types of ammo: HP and RN. I slam the mag into the gun, pull the slide all the way back to where it stops, and let go. The bullet's nose does not enter the chamber, but goes slightly nose-down and rams at a right angle into what I guess is called the ramp (the interior front side of the grip, just below the chamber). I then pull the slide all the way back, hit the mag release, and the mag drops out of the gun. At this point the bullet is still in the mag, pushed forward about 1/8" or so, and is still slightly nose-down compared to the rest of the bullets in the clip.

 

Every now and then, a bullet will actually make it into the chamber, but never smoothly, and the slide will sometimes stop with the entire cartridge only halfway chambered. If this happens, I give it an extra push with my off hand. If a bullet does get into the chamber, I again pull the slide all the way back, the bullet successfuly ejects, I let the slide go, and the next bullet will jam as before. Maybe one in 30 rounds will successfuly chamber, but I have never successfully chambered two rounds in a row.

 

From what I've gathered in the thread, it looks like the extractor may be the problem? What does it take to fix? This is a brand-new gun (although I've owned it for maybe two months, now), and even returning it it for repair/replacement is going to cost. Getting it repaired "locally" may be the cheapest way to go. No matter how you look at it, I'm pi**ed.

 

See Badlands, you thought this was all about you - didn't you!!

 

Well, let's see if we can get it back to that!

 

I'm bothered by what I read here - I doubt the base of the cartridge is getting up far enough to be anywhere near the

extractor - given that it is not clearing the magazine lips at all it can't get to within a half to quarter inch of the

extractor hook.

 

Once a round gets chambered it extracts, so your extractor is working . . . it may need a touch of tuning and shaping,

for improved feeding and general reliability, but it's basically working.

 

The round is being pushed forward - into the frame ramp, and stopping. When you pull back the slide and hold it, you

can let the mag fall clear taking the round with it still in the mag. The magazine should release the round in time for

it to rise up to meet the breech face and slip under the extractor hook while it's been slid into the chamber.

 

In order to do that the bullet must be sliding up the feed ramp, and going forward as the slide pushes it, finally slipping

free just as it's intercepted by the extractor. That's not happening . . the rounds are not getting free of the magazine

in time. One unlikely culprit is that the magazine release may be sitting too low - leaving the magazine too far into the well.

 

The most probable culprit is the magazine lips may not be releasing the rounds at the right time. A lot of the modern and

new-age combat designs are built around the Wad Cutter design using parallel lips vice the old colt tapered lip design. This

gives a later release and a pop to the shorter Wad Cutter round in the hopes up pushing it up towards the extractor at the

latest possible moment to prevent stove piping or bullet tumbling (premature release under spring pressure will pop the round up).

 

I suspect the rounds are not getting released at the correct time, and are being held level as they go forward, right into the ramp.

A tapered lip mag will allow the bullet to tilt upward sooner, and follow the ramp to the chamber. I'd try to find some classic

seven round Colt magazines with tapered lips first, make sure they have fresh springs, and then see what happens.

 

Do a google search in images for Colt magazine lips and you can see the differences, and probably find some good articles on

the topic.

 

Let us know how it goes . .

 

Shadow Catcher

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Let me assure all that I have the utmost respect for decorated vet Larry Vickers, and I sure do enjoy all his shows. That goes for the US Air Force as well, a little good-natured inter-service rivalry is always good clean fun. For truly "nothing can stop the US Air Force".

 

But me and the Israelis will stick with the sling shot method. In addition to the above-mentioned reasons, it's just easier for me and me ole arthritic thumb. YMMV.

 

All comments taken in the joking manner they were meant. I wouldn't have it any other way. When people ask if I was ever in the military I say, "Oh no,the military is way too hard core for me. I went in the Air Force instead." :lol:

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You can confirm the extractor diagnosis quickly.

Do you have another 1911? Know someone who does?

If you can field strip the gun then you can exchange the extractor in a matter of minutes. The Philippine guns are pretty close to mil-spec and use a basketful of off the shelf parts.

Try a known good extractor from a working gun rather than a new or second hand part. That should tell you right away if your extractor is the problem.

 

You don't really even need another extractor to test if the current extractor is causing the nose-dive. Just take out the extractor. If it feeds without the extractor, the extractor is over tensioned. If there still is a nose-dive without the extractor in the slide, then it's probably a mag or mag release latch problem. When you end up with a round chambered, lock slide open and push it out with a wooden rod or an unsharpened pencil. The "ol' #2 extractor".

 

Good luck, GJ

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I'm going to put the gun away for a while. Most of the ammo I've been working with, the bullet has been pushed down into the shell maybe 1/8 inch, and I don't yet have any ACP extracting or reloading gear.

 

I *think* there's going to be a Cimmaron rep at Green Mountain Mayhem in a couple of weeks; I'll take the thing to him and see what can be done for the least cost to me. I'm beginning to think it may be best to cut my losses, sell the thing for half-price to someone who can fix it, himself, and maybe get one of the Colt 100-year anniversary 1911s.

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  • 3 weeks later...

You can now read the end of the saga over in the Classifieds. Look for "WTS 1911 Project Gun"

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