Overloading Rifle

[JD Trampas, SASS # 55781]

RO 1, page 10, Loading/Unloading table officers, A} Loading Table Officers are responsible to visually check to ensure all firearms are loaded with only the correct number of rounds required in the course of fire. They count, along with the shooter, rounds being loaded into rifles and revolver

 

Now if you don't have a loading officer, you will have some that will put more or less in that is required, have been at matches where we always have a loading officer and maybe not a unloading officer, in that case we have the first shooter go to the unloading table and someone will make sure he is unloaded and then he stays there for the next shooter to watch him, then that shooter stays and watches the next shooter and so forth.

 

If they change this rule for rifle rounds, are they going to change the rule in the RO 1 about loading/unloading table officers also? We have had this rule since I have been in SASS, these rules in the 3 handbooks was brought on by the Wild Bunch I would imagine, these are rules for a reason, I'm just saying.

 

If a shooter loads 11 instead of ten like the stage calls for, and he forgets the 11th round and being you leave the action open on rifle then you have a loaded round on the carrier and then shooter is penalize for this because he forgot to eject the 11th round.

 

Ok, off my soap box for now, but we have rules to follow and they were drawn up for a reason, but I will follow any new rules that comes down

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

[Cowboy Junky]

How are you gonna' know it's overloaded......especially before you shoot the next gun? Look in the carrier before you lay it down in every stage? Have the RO moving around behind you trying to catch a glimpse of the carrier before you get your next gun out? If I loaded 10 and shot 9 and went to the pistol there is no way any RO will see or have time to do anything before it’s too late.....unless maybe they are so tall they can see down in the action of the rifle....but even that seems like a stretch.

 

Maybe I'm missing something but it really isn't going to change anything unless it’s the last gun you shot and it's not "real" common to end with a rifle....but it does happen…..again not being smart am I missing something?

[Badlands Beady]

How are you gonna' know it's overloaded......especially before you shoot the next gun? Look in the carrier before you lay it down in every stage? Have the RO moving around behind you trying to catch a glimpse of the carrier before you get your next gun out? If I loaded 10 and shot 9 and went to the pistol there is no way any RO will see or have time to do anything before it's too late.....unless maybe they are so tall they can see down in the action of the rifle....but even that seems like a stretch.

 

Maybe I'm missing something but it really isn't going to change anything unless it's the last gun you shot and it's not "real" common to end with a rifle....but it does happen…..again not being smart am I missing something?

 

It doesn't take that long to work the action once or twice after the last shot. I've always done that; of course, I've never been interested in speed.

 

Maybe they should add a rule that the actions must be worked at least once before going on the the nexts gun. That way, the extra time would be applied to everyone.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

It doesn't take that long to work the action once or twice after the last shot. I've always done that; of course, I've never been interested in speed.

 

Maybe they should add a rule that the actions must be worked at least once before going on the the nexts gun. That way, the extra time would be applied to everyone.

 

That's funny!

 

Good one!

 

[Anvil Al #59168]

It doesn't take that long to work the action once or twice after the last shot. I've always done that; of course, I've never been interested in speed.

 

Maybe they should add a rule that the actions must be worked at least once before going on the the nexts gun. That way, the extra time would be applied to everyone.

 

 

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Is it really that hard to have folks pay attention and load 10 rounds? if it's such an issue with a shooter maybe they need to get a loading block or something to help make them more responsible in keeping it at 10 rounds...oh well, if the majority of SASS people are happy the change - fine by me I reckon.

 

 

GG ~

 

 

[BJT]

Under the old rules, you would get a 10 sec MSV for the round on the carrier AND a 10 second MSV for overloading for 20 seconds.

 

Now, IF you leave it on the carrier, it is only a single 10 sec MSV.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

How are you gonna' know it's overloaded......especially before you shoot the next gun? Look in the carrier before you lay it down in every stage? Have the RO moving around behind you trying to catch a glimpse of the carrier before you get your next gun out? If I loaded 10 and shot 9 and went to the pistol there is no way any RO will see or have time to do anything before it’s too late.....unless maybe they are so tall they can see down in the action of the rifle....but even that seems like a stretch.

 

Maybe I'm missing something but it really isn't going to change anything unless it’s the last gun you shot and it's not "real" common to end with a rifle....but it does happen…..again not being smart am I missing something?

[BJT]

I have seen matches were 80% of the stages called for 10 rifle. On the 2 stages where only 9 rifle were called for, there was a sign at the loading table that said "LOAD NINE". Still people loaded ten. Habits are hard to break.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Is it really that hard to have folks pay attention and load 10 rounds? if it's such an issue with a shooter maybe they need to get a loading block or something to help make them more responsible in keeping it at 10 rounds...oh well, if the majority of SASS people are happy the change - fine by me I reckon.

 

 

GG ~

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I think this rule will remove a great deal of safety from our sport ....

 

And for what purpose ,,,,, the old rule treated everone the same if you messed-up was, easy to figure....

It was truley a fair penelty.........

 

While some folks didn't like it,,,,,,,,, it was not a rule that unduely interfered with running a match or some ones placement at a shoot ...

 

And this new rule just makes it easyer to get someone shoot due to the inattention of someone else ,,, especially where there are No loading Table officers ....

 

I have seen it many times when the person watching the loading ,,,,, was Not ,,,,, But was instead visiting ....

 

Folks make mistakes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Yes even Cowboys, I just hope this new rule don't get some one shot !!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I have seen matches were 80% of the stages called for 10 rifle. On the 2 stages where only 9 rifle were called for, there was a sign at the loading table that said "LOAD NINE". Still people loaded ten. Habits are hard to break.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

 

That explains it - Thanks BJT

 

GG ~

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

Last year at the SW Regionals, this was called on a top shooter in our possee. He finished a stage that he had shot clean. Two of the spotters pointed out that he had jacked out a live round in the process, but still had enough to cover all the target sequence. He protested when he was given a penalty by saying that it was common practice in his part of the country to load an extra one , just in case, and jack it out at the end of the string. His complaints fell on deaf ears.

 

I have cost myself a clean match, in a past year, at SW Regionals by loading 10 instead of 9. I called it on myself and felt it was a highly deserved penalty. Not knowing how many rounds you have in your rifle is indeed a safety issue IMHO.

 

I would like to join the minority that feels the change is not in the best interest of safety.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Oh and it wontn't matter that the Person shooting some one was RESPONCIBLE for their actions ,,,,, It will spell over to all ...

 

Removing a layer of safety ,,, for some folks likes or dislikes just don't seem like a good idea ....

 

Kind of like trading off your quater Horse for a race horse ,,,,, when what you really need is a clydesdale to pull yer wagon ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[BJT]

I have a hard time understanding how this removes a layer of safety. If you leave a round on the carrier, you get a safety penalty, not two but one. If you make the gun safe, you do not get a penalty. How is that a problem? How does it make it less safe?

 

Bewildered,

BJT

 

I think this rule will remove a great deal of safety from our sport ....

 

And for what purpose ,,,,, the old rule treated everone the same if you messed-up was, easy to figure....

It was truley a fair penelty.........

 

While some folks didn't like it,,,,,,,,, it was not a rule that unduely interfered with running a match or some ones placement at a shoot ...

 

And this new rule just makes it easyer to get someone shoot due to the inattention of someone else ,,, especially where there are No loading Table officers ....

 

I have seen it many times when the person watching the loading ,,,,, was Not ,,,,, But was instead visiting ....

 

Folks make mistakes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Yes even Cowboys, I just hope this new rule don't get some one shot !!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[BJT]

A shooter who intentionally does not follow stage instructions (loads more than the stage instructions say to) and does it for competitive advantage (faster if he jacks one out), that shooter has earned a 30 second penalty as defined in the ROI manual.

 

Not a problem.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

Last year at the SW Regionals, this was called on a top shooter in our possee. He finished a stage that he had shot clean. Two of the spotters pointed out that he had jacked out a live round in the process, but still had enough to cover all the target sequence. He protested when he was given a penalty by saying that it was common practice in his part of the country to load an extra one , just in case, and jack it out at the end of the string. His complaints fell on deaf ears.

 

I have cost myself a clean match, in a past year, at SW Regionals by loading 10 instead of 9. I called it on myself and felt it was a highly deserved penalty. Not knowing how many rounds you have in your rifle is indeed a safety issue IMHO.

 

I would like to join the minority that feels the change is not in the best interest of safety.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

BJT;

Pard as you have already pointed out Some Folks can't count ,,, and this rule makes it easyer for a action to get closed on a live round ,,, as it makes it less important to only load the excact number of rounds needed for any given stage ....

 

And in the excitment of ,,, shooting your First "Clean" match,Winning the "BIG" one ,or whatever forgetting that there is still one round in the gun ... So anything that makes it easyer to be less diliegent about round count makes it easyer to screw-up and get someone shot ...

 

And a Lawyer will see this rule as increasing risk for all ,,,, I asked mine !!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Mack, did you remove the live round before the next gun?

If not, did you get the 20 seconds or only 10 as so often has happened in the past.

 

The rule was made so that you did not leave empty cartridges in the gun when you were done. We want the gun empty when we are done. Since we already had a rule one that, we do not need two.

 

The change does not lessen the importance of loading the correct amount of ammo unless you like to cycle your gun a few times every time before you set it down - or risk a 10 second safety penalty.

[BJT]

If I accidentally load too many and I leave a round on the carrier, I recieve a safety penalty.

 

Does it change safety if there are two instead of one penalties for the same problem?

 

If so, to be safe, we should have a MDQ for ANY safety infraction. That is a legitimate way to go but do we really want that?

 

While we have MSVs, I think one for a round on the carrier is sufficient and will not change behavior compared to getting two MSVs for the same result of leaving a round on the carrier.

 

Do we really think there are pards out there who will be less careful of round counts because mistakes will only cost them 10 seconds instead of 20 seconds?

 

In fact, a reasoned argument could be made that shooters will be more careful about making sure there is nothing on the carrier since they could clear it and get out clean instead of having a 10 second safety for loading to many in spite of the fact that they made the rifle safe. With the loading penalty, why bother checking for a live round, your stage is shot to hell for a 10 second MSV as well as a 20 second MSV.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

BJT;

Pard as you have already pointed out Some Folks can't count ,,, and this rule makes it easyer for a action to get closed on a live round ,,, as it makes it less important to only load the excact number of rounds needed for any given stage ....

 

And in the excitment of ,,, shooting your First "Clean" match,Winning the "BIG" one ,or whatever forgetting that there is still one round in the gun ... So anything that makes it easyer to be less diliegent about round count makes it easyer to screw-up and get someone shot ...

 

And a Lawyer will see this rule as increasing risk for all ,,,, I asked mine !!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Does it change safety if there are two instead of one penalties for the same problem?

 

From what I've heard, those who have been opposed to removing the rule have either thought that the elimination of the rule meant no penalty at all...which is not the case ...or else they have thought that it would allow someone to load an extra as insurance in the event of an ejected live round...which again is not the case as the ejected round would still need to be loaded. As you and Marauder have pointed out, there is still a penalty if a round is left in the rifle and the elimination of this rule simply eliminates the double penalty.

 

I think the mentioning of the fact that someone could avoid the remaining penalty by ejecting the live round has sent people off chasing their tails. While this is true, someone who loads an extra round has done so in error and is only slightly more likely to realize that they loaded an extra round at the end of their rifle string than they did when they loaded it to begin with at the loading table. Yes, they might see it when they are laying it down. If they do and have to take the extra time to eject it, even then they have paid a time penalty, though it is less than ten seconds. If they fail to see it (I think that is most likely), they're still going to get the MSV and that should be plenty to remind them to watch a bit closer in the future.

[Fingers McGee]

Thank you WB for removing this double jeopardy rule.

 

Fingers (Who gets it) McGee

[Snakebite]

BTT

[Griff]

Snakebite, thanks for the notice; PWB, thanks for the explanation.

[rant mode on]

I for one, dislike situations that involve "double jeopardy," or if you will, two penalties for one action. REALLY? You actually think that a "Minor SAFETY Violation" for loading too many and a "Minor SAFETY Violation" for leaving a live round at end of a shooting string somehow makes us "safer"? Just how does that work? IMO, it isn't very "American" of us, when our entire justice system is bent to avoid just such an eventuality. I can't believe some of the responses on this topic.

 

For Pete's sake, there ain't a rule or law in existence that MAKES us safer. As an RO I've never found it necessary to apply both of the subject penalties on a shooter; kind of like adding' insult to injury. For rules & laws to improve "our" safety, they must be applicable, enforced (hopefully with some humanity), and a penalty to aid us in thinking we'd like to avoid same, (determents). Penalties should be logical and in some manner progressive; i.e., increasing in severity as the situation warrants.

 

Setting aside the 5 sec. penalty for misses, we have two penalties for how one "plays" this game. A 10 sec "Procedural" for attempts to gain advantage by not following the script and/or other what I'd call "social infractions". We have three levels of safety penalties; the MSV, SDQ & MDQ. The so-called "Minor Safety Violation" with its implied safety infraction should be reserved for actions or situations where an injury could result if conditions were not arrested. As in a live round left in the magazine or carrier using the example under discussion. Until this announcement it carried a potential double jeopardy component by application of another rule that could lead to the same result. And, this carries the same, exact penalty as exhibiting "bad form," or executing a social infraction. If, in fact, we looked at the rules in that manner, as what actions are simply social foopahs, and which could lead to an injury, then maybe we should look at the relative values of the penalties to be applied.

 

To my way of thinking, ANY safety call should carry a more severe penalty than mere social foopahs. Leaving a live round on the carrier of a long gun isn't a mere social foopahs; it's a mere 2 step process to progress to an AD, a far more grievous safety violation. However, that same rule in our books references leaving an empty case or hull in a long gun is a MSV. I do not consider this a safety concern... it seems more of a social foopah that in fact, poses no risk of injury. Explain to me how leaving an empty case on the carrier of any long gun could possibly result in injury. I propose that removing said empties is simply our social convention in order not have our fellow competitors diggin' out their bi-focals to see the dimpled primer! Callin' that an MSV is a misnomer at best. There are other contradictory rules with rather severe disparities between the penalties.

 

Yes, many of these dichotomies have reasonable and valid explanations, but a simple reading of the rules might, and has, led more'n one observer to wonder about our commitment to safety and just how can the rules possibly be applied fairly? I'd like to see the Rules Committee remove these social foopahs from the listing as MSVs and move them to the Procedural category of rules. This would then lessen the number of rules that seem to have no impact on safety, yet are called safety violations, even if only minor in nature. AND, here you can cast all the stones you want, but I'd like to see bonafide Minor Safety Violations have their penalty increased to 30 seconds. This might provide some impetus for those that don't consider 10 seconds as much of a determent.

[rant mode off]

 

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I think this rule will remove a great deal of safety from our sport ....

 

And for what purpose ,,,,, the old rule treated everone the same if you messed-up was, easy to figure....

It was truley a fair penelty.........

 

While some folks didn't like it,,,,,,,,, it was not a rule that unduely interfered with running a match or some ones placement at a shoot ...

 

And this new rule just makes it easyer to get someone shoot due to the inattention of someone else ,,, especially where there are No loading Table officers ....

 

I have seen it many times when the person watching the loading ,,,,, was Not ,,,,, But was instead visiting ....

 

Folks make mistakes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Yes even Cowboys, I just hope this new rule don't get some one shot !!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

How does applying one or two penalties change the safety of our sport? It is the shooters responsibility to know how many rounds to load and do it safely. If he loads too many he will have a round on the carrier and still be penalized, but once instead of twice.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

Mack, did you remove the live round before the next gun?

If not, did you get the 20 seconds or only 10 as so often has happened in the past.

 

The rule was made so that you did not leave empty cartridges in the gun when you were done. We want the gun empty when we are done. Since we already had a rule one that, we do not need two.

 

The change does not lessen the importance of loading the correct amount of ammo unless you like to cycle your gun a few times every time before you set it down - or risk a 10 second safety penalty.

 

 

As I remember, I got the 20. The gun was re-staged open with a round in the carrier and emptied(by me) before moving from the firing line, but after I had finished with another weapon. It seemed like everyone on the possee had a different idea, up to and including an SDQ.

 

 

And , for those of you that are familiar with Comin at Cha, Yeah, it was those damned chickens.

 

Incidently, after reading through this again, I have changed my opinion and believe this is a good change, FWIW.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

I ain't levering again after finishing the rifle string!

I use a loading strip which I have the appropriate number of rounds for that stage in the first place!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most of the time

[Manatee]

It's sad, so sad

It's a sad, sad situation

And it's getting more and more absurd

It's sad, so sad

Why can't we talk it over

Oh it seems to me

That sorry seems to be the hardest wordWhat do I do to make you love me

What have I got to do to be heard

What do I do when lightning strikes me

What have I got to do

What have I got to do

When sorry seems to be the hardest word

I guess what's sad about this is it took so long. Notwithstanding the drizzles one might get from pointing a loaded firearm at yerowndangself, this rule change won't affect that. I've had a loaded 44 mag with heavy cowboy loads and thumb on the hammer pointed at me. Not my favorite experience.

Thanks to the RO comittee and the Wild Bunch for this rule modification.