Snakebite Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Overloading the rifle For the past several years the rule dealing with overloading the rifle has been a hot topic. Lengthy discussions regarding this issue have taken place at the TG Summit and at most major TG gatherings. In each case, the overwhelming desire of the TGs and the Membership at large has been to remove this unfair rule from the SASS Rule Book. Overloading a rifle on a stage is not a safety issue. The safety issue comes into play if the shooter has any rounds left in the rifle after he/she has fired the rifle and committed to the next gun. Changing SASS rules can ONLY be done by the TGs or the WB. After numerous unsuccessful attempts to get this issue resolved, the WB has decided to MANDATE the change. They do this with the complete backing of the SASS RO committee, and I'm sure with the majority support of all SASS members. Should the shooter realize that they have loaded too many rounds and safely ejects those rounds, it’s a no call Expect an announcement to this effect in the next Chronicle abolishing this "Double Jeopardy" rule. It will be in effect at this year's EOT. Snakebite; Chairman SASS RO Committee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Excellent, glad to hear that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Way to go WB and SASS RO Committee, Thank you KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams 3674 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Praise be! Good judgement and common sense have prevailed over obstinacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WymoreWrangler SASS 46187L Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I wish that would have been in effect last year...LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Great news!!! Thanks! Now I won't have to be the big meany that tells folks that their one mistake will result in 20 seconds in penalties. And often after they were told it would only be 10 seconds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Maybe the WB could do the same with the hated empty on the 97 carrier or in the open double. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 My thanks to the Rules Committee and the Wild Bunch on this issue. Good job! Thanks, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 So stage calls for ten rounds, I load 12 During the stage I accidentally eject a live round, less time loss because I just lever in one of my two "extra" and lever out the other "extra" as I "stage the rifle safely". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingers McGee Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 So stage calls for ten rounds, I load 12 During the stage I accidentally eject a live round, less time loss because I just lever in one of my two "extra" and lever out the other "extra" as I "stage the rifle safely". No, you still have to load from the body to replace any ejected round. Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 And if you did it on a consistent basis, eventually you'd forget to crank out the extra rounds and get hit with a penalty, not to mention overliading regularly would draw an SOG. I had the same thought when I first read it, but after thinking on it decided there is enough still in place to keep people from 'gaming' it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 And when you do not, you gonna like spending the time levering rounds out? Do it too often and it may be ruled "intentional" as in "a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage". I give a cheatin rebel another 30 seconds in a heartbeat ;-) Cheers, BJT So stage calls for ten rounds, I load 12 During the stage I accidentally eject a live round, less time loss because I just lever in one of my two "extra" and lever out the other "extra" as I "stage the rifle safely". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 BJT: me thinks he's is more of a Southern sympathizer than a real Rebel. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Touche' BJT: me thinks he's is more of a Southern sympathizer than a real Rebel. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Number4 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Thank you, thank you, thank you very much... Ol' #4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 The extra round would seem to me to be a "Illegally" accured round... If the stage called for 9 and you loaded 10, then only 9 rounds would be legal ammo... the extra round could not be used.. any reloads needed would have to come off your person.... the ONLY thing that you could do with the extra round is KICK IT OUT or take the hit for it being left in the gun. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Trampas, SASS # 55781 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 If the loading officer was watching the cowboy/cowgirl loading rifle, there wouldn't be any extra rounds in the rifle, just saying is all, have worked the loading table many times and have caught them trying to put in 11 and they thank me for it, it can happen and I watch very closely and even have caught people with not enough for rifle, guess people don't pay much attention to the stage directions and round count, just saying is all. All for now JD Trampas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Thanks Snakebite for letting us know of this decision. Like the others, I applaud the decision!!! One win for the level headed and reasonable crowd Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Thanks Snakebite. The wheels of logic turn slowly. But they turn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you now, after too long an absence, the one, the only............. COMMON SENSE!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 So stage calls for ten rounds, I load 12 During the stage I accidentally eject a live round, less time loss because I just lever in one of my two "extra" and lever out the other "extra" as I "stage the rifle safely". Without quoting "chapter & verse" for the entire scenario... Rounds that are ejected must be replaced or counted as misses. The SHB specifies how ammunition for stage reloads may be carried to the line. Loading extra rounds in the magazine is NOT one of those listed methods. Whether accidental or on purpose, using any "extra" pre-loaded rounds in event that any are ejected will result in a "P" and misses for any rounds so used. The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e. NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) will be a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo will be scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 And when you do not, you gonna like spending the time levering rounds out? Do it too often and it may be ruled "intentional" as in "a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage". I give a cheatin rebel another 30 seconds in a heartbeat ;-) Cheers, BJT As long as the current rule re: the use of "illegally acquired ammo" is enforced, there would be NO competitive advantage in earning a "P" + miss(es). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Maybe the WB could do the same with the hated empty on the 97 carrier or in the open double. Yeah,I would of rather seen that than this,but maybe they will fix that as well. AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 All this assumes that all involved can count and this is a matter not always apparent ... I have had a new shooter sweep me at the unloading table with a rifle that all the spoters called the targets as all hits,,,,,,the shooter lowered the muzzle even with my chest while placing his shotgun on the table (poor muzzle control)and low & behold I noticed the lever was closed and the hammer cocked.... When I guided the muzzle sky-ward and instructed him to open the lever,,,,,,,,,,, guess what poped out >>>>>>>> a loaded round .... It seems that he knew the lever was at least partly closed but thought it was empty so "No harm No foul" was what he thought,,,, everyone was clapping for his "Clean Stage".... It seems he had by misstake loaded 11 rounds instead of 10 ,,,,,,,, And I was lucky I didn't get the last round in the chest .... It is a really sick feeling to know that you could have been dead from a "Quote unloaded" gun .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 If the loading officer was watching the cowboy/cowgirl loading rifle, there wouldn't be any extra rounds in the rifle.. Agreed! So why another rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Jamison Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 All this assumes that all involved can count and this is a matter not always apparent ... I have had a new shooter sweep me at the unloading table with a rifle that all the spoters called the targets as all hits,,,,,,the shooter lowered the muzzle even with my chest while placing his shotgun on the table (poor muzzle control)and low & behold I noticed the lever was closed and the hammer cocked.... When I guided the muzzle sky-ward and instructed him to open the lever,,,,,,,,,,, guess what poped out >>>>>>>> a loaded round .... It seems that he knew the lever was at least partly closed but thought it was empty so "No harm No foul" was what he thought,,,, everyone was clapping for his "Clean Stage".... It seems he had by misstake loaded 11 rounds instead of 10 ,,,,,,,, And I was lucky I didn't get the last round in the chest .... It is a really sick feeling to know that you could have been dead from a "Quote unloaded" gun .... Jabez Cowboy Was he MDQ'd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Kneestone SASS #14851 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 With all due respect to Snakebite and also Regarding the post from Jabez Cowboy.........: "Should the shooter realize that they have loaded too many rounds and safely ejects those rounds, it’s a no call" What if the shooter does NOT realize they have overloaded their rifle? At what point does the "vast majority of SASS members" then realize that a shooter HAS overloaded their rifle? It seems to me that the RO/Timer may now find it necessary to check every rifle action before allowing the shooter to move toward the Unloading Table? Keeping the muzzle pointed in a SAFE direction will become more important than ever. I will be forever grateful to my elementary school instructors for teaching me how to count! The comments above are mine alone and, as always, your mileage may vary. Kid Kneestone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 My concern was I almost paid for some one elses laxness !!!! And yes it should have been caught at the loading table ,,,, The TO should/could have caught the lever closeing ,,,, But the rifle still arrived and was still loaded and pointed at my chest !!! And if I had been shot dead ,,,,,,,,, My wife and Family would not have been satisfied with "It should have been caught at the loading table".... If folks is going to be shooting at me, I would prefer to be shooting back and I have been there and done that ..... And I am still alive ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 My concern was I almost paid for some one elses laxness !!!! And yes it should have been caught at the loading table ,,,, The TO should/could have caught the lever closeing ,,,, But the rifle still arrived and was still loaded and pointed at my chest !!! And if I had been shot dead ,,,,,,,,, My wife and Family would not have been satisfied with "It should have been caught at the loading table".... If folks is going to be shooting at me, I would prefer to be shooting back and I have been there and done that ..... And I am still alive ... Jabez Cowboy Okay...so you had an idiot that pointed a gun at you between the LT and the ULT...so what did you do in response? Was he MDQ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed I. Knight, SASS #36423 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 As others have said above, good job by the Wild Bunch (and Rules Committee) on this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Phantom & Talon ; I remained at the unloading table , A told the cowboy that he needed to tell the TO what had happened ... I trusted that he would do the right thing ,,,,,,, He didn't.... As it was the last stage of the day I was not aware that he hadn't done the right thing till, he showed-up to shoot the next day ,,,,,, Then another Cowboy seeing him getting ready to shoot did the right thing and spoke-up about what had happened ..... So yes ,,, He was dressed-down for not doing the right thing and given a match DQ ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 If the loading officer was watching the cowboy/cowgirl loading rifle, there wouldn't be any extra rounds in the rifle, just saying is all, have worked the loading table many times and have caught them trying to put in 11 and they thank me for it, it can happen and I watch very closely and even have caught people with not enough for rifle, guess people don't pay much attention to the stage directions and round count, just saying is all. All for now JD Trampas LOTSA places do not utilize a LTO. Down here in the big country it is extremely rare to have that position filled. In fact I have shot over a hundred matches including regionals and the last two state shoots and never ran into an LTO. Local norms where you shoot are not universal. Hallelujah for the rule change. That rule cost me at a SW Regional once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Durn, SASS#18998 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Great call - this rule always seemed unnecessary to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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