RO 1 - Appendix A ......... ?

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

The RO 1, Appendix A, Items 17 and 18, appear to conflict. Item 17 assesses a MSV if the action of a long gun is not open or "cleared" but may be "OK" if corrected prior to leaving the shooters hands at the unloading table (last gun fired). Item 18 assesses a MSV if a fired round is left in the chamber, or on the carrier. There is no provision for correcting the situation "prior to leaving the shooter's hand." It would indicate if you get to the unloading table with a fired hull on the carrier of your 97, you draw the MSV penalty.

 

HuH????? :wacko:

 

Coffinmaker

[BJT]

If the gun is not the last gun on the stage, the shooter may correct the problem without penalty until the next gun is cocked.

 

If the gun is the last gun, the shooter may correct the problem until reaching the unloading table.

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

BJT,

 

Item 18 says you get the penalty ...... period. No provision for "prior to leaving the shooters hand(s)."

 

I just re-read both paragraphs. Item 17 says correctable. Item 18 has no provision for correction.

 

Coffinmaker

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi CC,

 

From page 13 of the RO I, "“Action Open.” This command is given by the Timer Operator when a competitor puts a long-gun down with the action closed. The Timer Operator must do everything in his/her power to prevent the shooter from moving from that position with the action on any long-gun closed. If the shooter puts down a gun with the action closed, but returns and opens the action before firing the next firearm, there is no penalty."

 

This rule about "prior to firing" (not cocking) applies to opening the action not to having a round in the gun. Item 17 refers to opening the action, which is correctible after leaving the shooters hands. It appears that Item 18 about rounds in the gun is not correctable.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[BJT]

Revolvers, you are committed to the shot when the gun is cocked.

 

Shotgun, you could open and empty and correct.

 

Rifle, you could open the action and reload later.

 

If the revolver is the next gun, you can not make it up after the gun is cocked unless you want people trying to open actions while holding a loaded cocked gun.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

Hi CC,

 

From page 13 of the RO I, "“Action Open.” This command is given by the Timer Operator when a competitor puts a long-gun down with the action closed. The Timer Operator must do everything in his/her power to prevent the shooter from moving from that position with the action on any long-gun closed. If the shooter puts down a gun with the action closed, but returns and opens the action before firing the next firearm, there is no penalty."

 

This rule about "prior to firing" (not cocking) applies to opening the action not to having a round in the gun. Item 17 refers to opening the action, which is correctible after leaving the shooters hands. It appears that Item 18 about rounds in the gun is not correctable.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Dubious Don #56333]

How could you possibly see a "conflict?" Seems pretty clear to me. Leave a round, empty or otherwise in the action and fail to clear it prior to FIRING the first round on the next firearm and you bought that penalty. The rule as written is CLEAR on the unloading table issue. Not until the gun LEAVES THE SHOOTERS CONTROL does the penalty apply. Get to the ULT, rest the barrel on the table while setting your rifle down BUT THE GUN IS STILL UNDER THE SHOOTERS CONTROL. (Once the shooter takes his hand(s) away, different story)

 

 

The RO 1, Appendix A, Items 17 and 18, appear to conflict. Item 17 assesses a MSV if the action of a long gun is not open or "cleared" but may be "OK" if corrected prior to leaving the shooters hands at the unloading table (last gun fired). Item 18 assesses a MSV if a fired round is left in the chamber, or on the carrier. There is no provision for correcting the situation "prior to leaving the shooter's hand." It would indicate if you get to the unloading table with a fired hull on the carrier of your 97, you draw the MSV penalty.

 

HuH????? :wacko:

 

Coffinmaker

[BJT]

Reread, I think 18 is really about a live round left in the chamber. The RO card makes it clear that only the MSV can be corrected:

 

"Empty or live round left in a long gun after the next gun is fired, or if last gun, put down on the unloading table."

 

The RO 1, Appendix A, Items 17 and 18, appear to conflict. Item 17 assesses a MSV if the action of a long gun is not open or "cleared" but may be "OK" if corrected prior to leaving the shooters hands at the unloading table (last gun fired). Item 18 assesses a MSV if a fired round is left in the chamber, or on the carrier. There is no provision for correcting the situation "prior to leaving the shooter's hand." It would indicate if you get to the unloading table with a fired hull on the carrier of your 97, you draw the MSV penalty.

 

HuH????? :wacko:

 

Coffinmaker

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Dubious,

 

If your reading & referring to item 17 ....... I agree.

 

If you read item 18 and get to the ULT with a round on the carrier, you bought the penalty. Plainly stated in item 18,

 

Coffinmaker

[Dubious Don #56333]

You are reading too much into it, that is not the case. At the unloading table you have until the gun leaves your control to correct it.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Dubious,

 

Not reading anything into it. Item 18 states plainly "as well as an empty left in the chamber, magazine or on the carrier" without any provision for correction.

 

This is why I see a conflict between the two provisions. Which one do you go with??

 

I ALWAYS try to give the shooter the benefit, if there is one. I don't like handing out penalties but I am a stickler for SAFETY.

 

Coffinmaker

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Pale Wolf Brunnel lurking about the premisses??

 

Coffinmaker

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

I've read 17 as:

Actions must be open and empty after firing...

 

 

I've read 18 as:

A live round left in the chamber constitutes a Stage Disqualification.Rounds on carrier are MSV unless corrected.

 

Though closely related each is describing different circumstances.

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

I don't see a conflict in the two rules. 18 provides for assessing a penalty for a fired round left in chamber or carrier. When is this penalty assessed? It is assessed at the end of that particular weapon's shooting string, which is defined as when the weapon leaves the shooter's hand(s) during the course of fire or at the ULT. I believe your confusion is based upon WHEN you want to enforce the penalty. I have until I set the weapon down to clear it, not the moment I cease firing that weapon.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Cinch,

 

There is NO provision in item 18 to permit "unless corrected." Item 18 has to be read "as it is written." We don't get to interpret at our level. In plain language, item 18 states if you get to the ULT with a spent round in the chamber, in the mag, or on the carrier, you bought a MSV.

 

Everybody is trying to continue item 17 down to item 18. You can't do that. Item 17 stands on it's own and item 18 stands on it's own. They conflict. The left hand says you can fix it, the right hand says you're screwed. Period.

 

One of these operations rules is incorrect. Which one?? The problem is, WE don't get to decide. SASS needs to fix it, one way or the other. If the shooter doesn't realize a long gun has failed to eject (97 is the best example) and gets to the ULT and the Unload guy/or gal has read item 18, you buy a MSV.

 

Coffinmaker

[Dirty Chris]

#18 describes the penalty for live rounds left in the gun. It's not considered left in the gun until you fire the next gun or get to the unloading table.

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

#18 describes the penalty for live rounds left in the gun. It's not considered left in the gun until you fire the next gun or get to the unloading table.

 

Thank you, DC. That's exactly what I was trying to state. You did it much more succinctly.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Aw cummon guys.

 

Steeldust and Chris, getting to the ULT is what I'm talking about. Your not going to the next gun, your arriving at the ULT with a spent round on the carrier. It doesn't matter what you THINK it means. Read as written, it says if you get to the ULT with a spent round on the carrier, you've bought a MSV.

 

Item 18 is talking about BOTH live rounds and spent rounds. If you get to the ULT with a live round on the carrier, it's SD.

 

Coffinmaker

[Dirty Chris]

Aw cummon guys.

 

Steeldust and Chris, getting to the ULT is what I'm talking about. Your not going to the next gun, your arriving at the ULT with a spent round on the carrier. It doesn't matter what you THINK it means. Read as written, it says if you get to the ULT with a spent round on the carrier, you've bought a MSV.

 

Item 18 is talking about BOTH live rounds and spent rounds. If you get to the ULT with a live round on the carrier, it's SD.

 

Coffinmaker

 

18. A live round left in the chamber constitutes a Stage Disqualification. A live round left in the

magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on

the carrier of the gun in which it was loaded, constitutes a 10-second Minor Safety violation.

Malfunctioning guns still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long as the

malfunction is declared and the gun made safe (handed to the Range Officer or placed on a

prop with the muzzle in safe direction). At this point, the firearm is still loaded, everyone

knows it, and the firearm can be handled in an appropriate manner.

 

There is nothing in item 18 about arriving at the unloading table. It just says rounds "left in" the gun. If it's cleared before leaving your hands at the unloading table, it is not "left in" the gun

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

Aw cummon guys.

 

Item 18 is talking about BOTH live rounds and spent rounds. If you get to the ULT with a live round on the carrier, it's SD.

 

Coffinmaker

 

A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the gun in which it was loaded, constitutes a 10-second Minor Safety Violation. Not a SDQ

 

A live round left in the chamber constitutes a Stage Disqualification.

 

Don't mean to have 17 flow into 18 but if you correct the round on the carrier as allowed in 17... 18 won't be a problem. But if ya don't...

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Cinch,

 

Exactly.

 

Coffinmaker

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

CC,

 

Where in #18 does it mention the Unloading Table? It doesn't. If you want to take this provision so literally, then why are you inserting "Unloading Table" into the process? You still didn't answer my question: WHEN, as in what specific point in time and where located, do you assess the penalty?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

17. Long guns will have their actions left open and the magazine/barrels empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10 second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired.

 

Applies during engagement of the stage by the shooter...a closed action may be opened and all rounds (unfired and empties) cleared without penalty before the next firearm is FIRED during the stage.

 

The 10 second MSV refers to the penalty for the closed action (usually accompanied by the last empty not being ejected...which would be an additional MSV)

 

If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table.

 

No penalty for 'rounds remaining' in the LAST firearm used on the stage IF it is cleared before it leaves the shooter's hand(s) at the ULT.

 

18. A live round left in the chamber constitutes a Stage Disqualification. A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the gun in which it was loaded, constitutes a 10-second Minor Safety violation.

 

This section specifies the PENALTIES for 'rounds remaining' in long guns...the provisions for negating those penalties are listed in #17.

Once the next firearm of the stage is FIRED, any penalties for 'rounds remaining' apply.

If a long gun is the last firearm used on the stage, any penalties regarding 'rounds remaining' in THAT firearm apply as soon as THAT gun leaves the shooter's hand(s) at the ULT.

 

Malfunctioning guns still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long as the malfunction is declared and the gun made safe (handed to the Range Officer or placed on a prop with the muzzle in safe direction). At this point, the firearm is still loaded, everyone knows it, and the firearm can be handled in an appropriate manner.