Should/Could a penalty be assessed after.....

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Typical discussion between a few pards and this thought comes up.

 

Shooter finishes a stage, spotters have voiced their view, and the time is recorded. Then, the shooter signs off (initials) on the score sheet.

 

THEN, an infraction has been brought to the attention of the Posse Marshall of something that occurred DURING the stage.

 

What should OR could be done in a situation such as this:

 

1. Official Time recorded stands.

 

2. Infraction considered/reviewed and added into score

 

3. Would the infraction matter ifn it was either a Miss, 'P', or a safety penalty not seen by the TO or spotters?

 

 

..........Widder

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Once it's over, it's over.

[Grizzly Dave]

I say no, it should not be assessed.

 

In the case of a miss or a P, the spotters are the officials, they didn't see it. For a safety the TO nor the spotters saw it. Whoever did see whatever should have had ample time to report it for review by the RO before the score sheet was signed.

 

Exception might be if the shooter wants to call a penalty on themselves, but again, you'd think he'd do that before signing the sheet.

 

JMO

 

Grizz

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Widow, pretty simple. It is never too late to correct a scoring mistake. Doesn't matter what it is. Scores have been corrected at EOT the next day.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Typical discussion between a few pards and this thought comes up.

 

Shooter finishes a stage, spotters have voiced their view, and the time is recorded. Then, the shooter signs off (initials) on the score sheet.

 

THEN, an infraction has been brought to the attention of the Posse Marshall of something that occurred DURING the stage.

 

What should OR could be done in a situation such as this:

 

1. Official Time recorded stands.

 

2. Infraction considered/reviewed and added into score

 

3. Would the infraction matter ifn it was either a Miss, 'P', or a safety penalty not seen by the TO or spotters?

 

 

..........Widder

 

IMHO if the score sheet has been signed off and somebody is just having a cow then the situation descided should go to the MD for a final decision, but personally if it was not brought up as the shooter finished and he or she signed the score sheet then I would leave well enough alone.

 

KK

[Shooting Bull]

Widow, pretty simple. It is never too late to correct a scoring mistake. Doesn't matter what it is. Scores have been corrected at EOT the next day.

 

 

What kind of mistake are we talking about? If it was a data entry error than sure, that should be corrected but, to assess a miss or a P or any other such thing after the fact doesn't seem right AT ALL!

[Three Foot Johnson]

I saw this something like this happen a few years ago at a local shoot - the shooter had finished the last stage, we were all getting packed up to leave, and I was leaning up against their pickup box BSing before we all took off, when I happened to note I could see case rims between the cylinders & recoil shield on a pair of revolvers laying in the bed. I made a comment as to why he would put empty brass back in the guns (I'm kind of slow). Turns out they were his son's revolvers, he called the boy over, chewed him out good for getting in a hurry & somehow skipping the unloading table, then went to the scoring shack and made them give him the penalty. (Minor safety...?)

[Anvil Al #59168]

never mind.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Lemme add unless some situation has been brought up before the sheet is signed, and not yet decided, the stage is over and any "tack-on" penalty is baloney.. IF a situation has been brought up, and the TO is wanting MD review before he decides what to do, don't LET the shooter sign off, and tell him it's still an open question. We've done that, trying to be fair and not assess a penalty until we were sure. Meanwhile we went on shooting while the MD was consulted.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

Widow, pretty simple. It is never too late to correct a scoring mistake. Doesn't matter what it is. Scores have been corrected at EOT the next day.

 

I don't think that's really a true statement. Scores might be changed due to a mathmatical error, (incorrectly adjusting score for KNOWN and STATED penalty's), and for plus targets.

 

Adding additional penalties after the fact, should not be done, or condoned. If the TO or the spotters don't declare it when the scoring is done, and after the shooter has signed it as correct, further penalties should not even be considered.

 

RBK

[Anvil Al #59168]

What the heck. I will add my .02

 

They had from the time the RO called out the time, checked with spotters, had time recorded,

score sheet brought over to shooter, shooter signs off????

And NOW they want to say something??????

 

To late in my opinion.

They had MORE than enough time to bring it up before all the above happened.

 

Now if brought up befoe all that and you are waitting for a ruling. OK.

But other wise. Nope.

[Madd Mike #8595]

I have been posse leader at eot, when a shooter

shooting towards the end of all the shooters on a stage did

what---ever

 

and it could NOT be handled properly before moving on to the next stage

 

I am not sure if he signed the book or not, probably did with my note next to it

 

............ he and the whole posse, certainly knew there was a problem...........

it was no suprise later

 

timeing can be a big part, if you need to keep posses' moving

 

it ended up becoming a spirit of the game match DQ

 

pretty hefty decision, that cant me made hastely (in a hurry)

 

different than what widder is asking

but might shed light on what can happen

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

There are only a few penalties that can be assessed after the shooter completes and signs for his stage.

 

Challenges made by appropriate persons (who the rule books don't really define) can be made and a decision rendered.

 

Challenges, such as questions of illegal ammunition, illegal firearms and/or modifications, illegal costuming, inadequate blackpowder smoke, calls made away from the firing line, and such.....(more text here about the requirements for additional investigation and documentation)

 

"Calls made away from the firing line" would include the penalty for failing to clear a gun at the unloading table, which is discovered at the NEXT stage's loading table.

 

Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage.

 

The rules require that all penalties coming from direct action on the stage need to be promptly announced to the shooter, after having been declared by the RO with help from the spotters.

 

The Chief Range Officer shall determine any misses by polling the assigned spotters and communicate the misses and any procedural or safety penalties to the person recording the score, as well as the shooter.

 

The signing of the scoresheet is an acknowledgment by the shooter that he has heard and if needed had explained the misses and penalties, and that the raw time was the same as what the RO announced before he left the firing line. Changing the score after signing requires notifying the shooter again. And at that point, the shooter may decide if a protest to that "correction" is to be filed.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Ace_of_Hearts]

A perfect example of a penalty that can be added after the shooter signs off on the score sheet is.......

Coming to the loading table with expended rounds still in the revolver - Stage Disqualification on the PREVIOUS STAGE.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I have been posse leader at eot, when a shooter

shooting towards the end of all the shooters on a stage did

what---ever

 

and it could NOT be handled properly before moving on to the next stage

 

I am not sure if he signed the book or not, probably did with my note next to it

 

............ he and the whole posse, certainly knew there was a problem...........

it was no suprise later

 

timeing can be a big part, if you need to keep posses' moving

 

it ended up becoming a spirit of the game match DQ

 

pretty hefty decision, that cant me made hastely (in a hurry)

 

different than what widder is asking

but might shed light on what can happen

 

I can see calling that later, as everyone including the shooter is aware of it, and you are just waitting on a ruleing.

 

 

A perfect example of a penalty that can be added after the shooter signs off on the score sheet is.......

Coming to the loading table with expended rounds still in the revolver - Stage Disqualification on the PREVIOUS STAGE.

 

Yes something like that would and should be added.

[Goliath, SASS #41359]

I saw this something like this happen a few years ago at a local shoot - the shooter had finished the last stage, we were all getting packed up to leave, and I was leaning up against their pickup box BSing before we all took off, when I happened to note I could see case rims between the cylinders & recoil shield on a pair of revolvers laying in the bed. I made a comment as to why he would put empty brass back in the guns (I'm kind of slow). Turns out they were his son's revolvers, he called the boy over, chewed him out good for getting in a hurry & somehow skipping the unloading table, then went to the scoring shack and made them give him the penalty. (Minor safety...?)

 

That shooter taught his son a valuable lesson - be a man and own up to your errors - that's the cowboy way.

We had a buckeroo get a SDQ for moving with the shotgun in a state ready to fire (all shotgun stage - the first stage of the match)

At first his grandpa challenged the call, but later admitted that it was good for the buckeroo to be able to take that kind of penalty and finish the match (he shot clean the rest of the match)

It's great to see youngsters "man up" and be real cowboys!

[BJT]

Widder,

 

Yes.

 

Example:

 

Shooter comes to the loading table at stage 2. He opens his revolver to find empty cases in the cylinder.

 

He would have a SDQ on stage 1 even if stage 1 was shot the day before with a different TO and spotters.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

[Kid Latham, SASS #79471]

 

THEN, an infraction has been brought to the attention of the Posse Marshall of something that occurred DURING the stage.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Widder,

 

The key question unanswered here is “who” is raising the question.

 

The RO2 Handbook offers two rules that cover this situation as set forth:

 

“While every participant is a safety officer, the assigned Posse Officials and Match Officials are the ONLY persons who may judge a shooter, whether on or away from the firing line.”

 

The stage is over and recorded, so, presumably, everyone with the authority to do so has had their say.

 

Once the decision of the stage officials is recorded,

 

“The shooter is the ONLY person who may question a call made by any of the Posse Officials on the line.”

 

Anyone else has no input.

 

So, unless the shooter is the one raising the question, I see it as a dead issue.

 

JMHO,

Kid Latham

[Blastmaster]

A perfect example of a penalty that can be added after the shooter signs off on the score sheet is.......

Coming to the loading table with expended rounds still in the revolver - Stage Disqualification on the PREVIOUS STAGE.

 

 

I agree, this is about the only exception.

 

Other than the above, once ink is spilled by the score keeper and shooter, it is a done deal....

 

 

Blastmaster

[Dubious Don #56333]

I've seen scores changed DAYS later at a major match at the specific insistence of a shooter. Just because the shooter "signs" his scorecard, doesn't make it permenent. Should the shooter be made aware of these changes? Absolutely. He would still have a right to challenge the call.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Example:

 

Shooter comes to the loading table at stage 2. He opens his revolver to find empty cases in the cylinder.

 

He would have a SDQ on stage 1 even if stage 1 was shot the day before with a different TO and spotters.

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

Howdy BJT,

NOT if the empty cases were found the next day.

 

• Arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day (assessed on the previously completed stage).

RO1 p.26

[BJT]

Thanks!!

 

Howdy BJT,

NOT if the empty cases were found the next day.

 

RO1 p.26

[Flying W Ramrod]

Also, the only people that can call misses are spotters, the only one who can call proceedurals, msv, sdq, mdq etc is the timer operator (who takes input from the other match officials i.e. spotters, loading and unloading officers). No one elses opinions count.

As previously stated by BJT and corrected by PWB only showing up at the next stage in the same day with brass can have the previous score changed. It's in the book.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Also, the only people that can call misses are spotters, the only one who can call proceedurals, msv, sdq, mdq etc is the timer operator (who takes input from the other match officials i.e. spotters, loading and unloading officers). No one elses opinions count.

As previously stated by BJT and corrected by PWB only showing up at the next stage in the same day with brass can have the previous score changed. It's in the book.

Believe you might be forgetting that competitors can challenge for power factor, exceeding max velocity, illegal gun mods, not-enough-smoke, costume violations (either while shooting or at the awards ceremony), etc. This is a muddy section of the rule book, but usually those challenges are allowed to proceed to the Match Director. And those types of challenges are never raised by the shooter, and not often raised by the RO or the spotters, since they are busy watching other things. Those challenges usually do not have to be brought before the shooter signs the scorebook.

 

Good luck, GJ

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

A couple of examples of "after the signing" scoring changes (from the standpoint of the Range Master):

 

1) RM happened to swing by a stage in the normal course of the event to see how the stages were running.

During a friendly conversation, a shooter mentioned that he had received a penalty for breaking the 170º rule while using a shoulder holster & was (naturally) unhappy about it...but had accepted the 10-second MSV penalty as there were two spotters involved.

He was "less than thrilled" (to say the least) to learn that the penalty for that infraction is a Stage DQ...and the T/O was directed to change the score to reflect the proper penalty.

 

2) A shooter was MDQ'd on the last stage of a major match...but the time had (fortunately) been written on the scoresheet.

As the awards ceremony began, the spouse of the shooter approached the RM with a question about the penalty for a cocked revolver leaving the shooter's hand. He was informed that the penalty was a SDQ.

The shooter then met with the RM to verify the circumstances and the appropriate penalty.

Upon learning that the stage time HAD been written down before the MDQ was assessed, the scorekeeper was notified and was able to make the scoring change in time for the shooter to "buckle" in category.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

A perfect example of a penalty that can be added after the shooter signs off on the score sheet is.......

Coming to the loading table with expended rounds still in the revolver - Stage Disqualification on the PREVIOUS STAGE.

Been there, done that....."sucks to be Me"!! Four Bucks sure hated it when I called him over!! Oh well, lesson learned.

[Paladin Gun For Hire]

OK, I have read and understood all that has been said. This is my 2nd season shootin and I have yet to sign a score sheet! Is this something that needs to be done or is it optional? Not trying to get anyone in trouble here, just need to know.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

OK, I have read and understood all that has been said. This is my 2nd season shootin and I have yet to sign a score sheet! Is this something that needs to be done or is it optional? Not trying to get anyone in trouble here, just need to know.

 

You won't run into signing of scoresheets until you get in bigger matches Some state matches don't even ask for initials. And if you don't or won't sign, after you leave the stage without a complaint, it really doesn't matter anyway - there's an assumption the shooter has accepted whatever was written.

 

Like golf - you don't sign your card playing at the local club with your buddies. You darn well better sign it at the Masters, if you want the green jacket.

 

Good luck, GJ