Who's done their own short stroke?

[Wagon Box Willy]

Howdy Pards,

 

While I may be new to old guns and CAS I'm extremely adept mechanically and I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy the parts to short stroke my 66 and install the lightened carrier and springs.

 

What component vendor is considered the best? I've found Pioneer and a couple of others and they all look to be in about the same price range.

 

Are there any cautions to be added by those who've gone down this DIY road?

 

Thanks

-Willy

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Howdy Pards,

 

While I may be new to old guns and CAS I'm extremely adept mechanically and I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy the parts to short stroke my 66 and install the lightened carrier and springs.

 

What component vendor is considered the best? I've found Pioneer and a couple of others and they all look to be in about the same price range.

 

Are there any cautions to be added by those who've gone down this DIY road?

 

Thanks

-Willy

 

1) All the vendors making these kits are THE BEST. Cowboys & Indian and Pioneer are the two major "DIY" kits. Cody Conagher and Jimmy Spurs do "custom fitted" short strokes (not a kit), so that sounds like something you don't want. You will need to determine which stroke length (aka, generation) you want. The shorter the stroke length, the less mechanical advantage. Because of this, the shortest allowable kits (like C&I 5th gen), work pretty well in .38 special guns, but not quite so effortlessly in larger chamberings. For larger caliber guns, lots of us still like the 3rd gen kits.

 

The availability of the parts is sometimes a little better from Pioneer than from C&I, since Joe Alves machines his own, and C&I has links machined outside, last I heard. I've never had Pioneer tell me that something was out of stock for more than just a couple of days.

 

I've got both vendors' kits running in '73s and could not find a single fault with any of their kits. Both vendors have the ability to help you tune excess headspace out by swapping links with you to get the correct link length to control the headspace.

 

The biggest cautions are:

* know what you are wanting to achieve - most beginning SASS shooters don't really know which of the speed items they want, need or can afford. Because they haven't got the trigger time in yet. If you don't have 6 months in shooting a 66, then you won't be able to use MUCH of the potential speed improvement. If you are not buying the gun race ready, you might just find you gain a lot more knowledge about it by shooting it "close to stock" for a while. For example, do you really know now whether you want a milled-brass or a light aluminum carrier?

* time the gun correctly, and make sure it is timed "at race speed". The carrier timing, when it both rises and falls, is critical to proper action of toggle link guns. You get the timing off, you can break the cartridge guide tab off the bottom of the bolt, have balky feeding, have weak ejection, and ding up the carrier itself. The kits come with instructions. The instructions sometimes don't tell you everything that has to be done and thought about.

* retain all the important safety features. Folks sometimes remove the lever safety - bad news. Folks don't check the firing pin fit and spring tension, and can have a firing pin that contacts the primer at inopportune times.

 

And folks will add a few more, I'm certain.

 

I've got 4 toggle links, two by major CAS gunsmiths, two by myself. I like the ones I did myself just slightly better, they are slightly faster in my hands. I was able to do that because the first 73 I got, I shot stock except for a little deburring and smoothing for a few months before starting to work on it, so I figured out just what I needed.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Buckshot Frank]

I recently installed the Pioneer super short stroke kit and SlixSprings on my '73. I chose the Pioneer parts because I liked the instructions that they provide on their website. I purchased both from Longhunter along with spring kits for my Rugers.

 

The install wasn't hard. It just takes a lot of fitting to get the timing correct. With instructions and help from people on this board, you shouldn't have any problems that you can't work through.

 

I don't know how different the install is on a '66.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Howdy Pards,

 

While I may be new to old guns and CAS I'm extremely adept mechanically and I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy the parts to short stroke my 66 and install the lightened carrier and springs.

 

What component vendor is considered the best? I've found Pioneer and a couple of others and they all look to be in about the same price range.

 

Are there any cautions to be added by those who've gone down this DIY road?

 

Thanks

-Willy

 

I have done 6 of the Pioneer kits. Usually pretty easy if you take your time and follow the directions. (come with kit or online at his website) Joe is very easy to deal with (really, really nice guy ), very knowlegable about his products and will take the time to walk you through things if you get stuck. Only had one problem and it was with the rifle itself (way excessive headspace) so I let the experts take care of that one.

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

[Wagon Box Willy]

Thanks pards,

 

I'm not going to rush into this (I don't even have the gun yet) but I'm flying cross country as I type this and I was thinking about it so I thought I'd ask.

 

Right now my perceived desire for short stroking is not for speed, I have no delusions that I'll ever be competitive, but more for shortening the reach so I can more comfortably keep the butt on my shoulder during levering.

 

I do plan to shoot the gun a while in stock condition before I actually make a decision.

 

I really like to tinker so doing the work myself is part of the fun but since Jimmy Spurs is local I may see what he has to offer.

 

Thanks

-Willy

[SOUTH-PACIFIC,SASS #59402]

got my kit from cowboys & indians. any problems they will talk you thru.me and jack hammer pi had problems with his 73. sent it to cb&i.they do excelent re adjustions for idgets. then we got the kit for my 66 made the phone call wasso wanted to know if we read the instructions. we went back to square oneread all the paper work and studied the pictures.when you put the two togather things work out real good. just make sure your partner is mechinaclly enclined .

[Noz]

I've installed the 3rd gen SS from Pioneer in my 66 along with the Slix springs and the aftermarket firing pin. the only difficulty was the firing pin and it took me a WHILE to figure out what was wrong. It remained shootable but just not to my liking until I discovered the aftermarket spring for the firing pin was slightly oversized for my gun. I took the original spring, cut a few turns off of it(1 at a time) and problem was solved.

[Colt McAllister]

I did my own. I couldn't find any that I liked. Link kits stacked up to much unless you run too light of main spring for my taste and the cut lever jobs were not short enough for me so I combined the two. That is what suited me.

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

I've installed about a dozen short stroke kits. Six in my guns and the rest for family members. All of them have been Cowboy and Indians Store 3rd gen kits. They send out instructions that are straight forward and fairly easy to follow. As Buckshot Frank said the timing is all-important or something will break fairly quickly.

 

Colt McAllister's solution is probably the best, but takes some fairly sophisticated gunsmithing to accomplish.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy Willie

 

Garrison Joe gave you some terrific advice, particularly the advice to get in some trigger time with the gun before you change anything.

 

I know you had the earlier concern about the stroke being too long for your arms. Be advised that a short stroke kit will increase the effort needed to work the action, since you are shortening the lever stroke. Since you are concerned about keeping the gun on your shoulder, a short stroke kit may actually be counterproductive in this regard, making you work harder to operate the gun. If you are going to add a short stroke kit, you will want the action smoothed, to remove excess friction, and a lighter main spring installed, so that you can work the shorter stroke with less effort.

 

I also suggest changing out the lever spring and carrier spring with Happy Trail's Whisper Springs. These will cut down on wear to the cam on the lever.

 

If you can make it I plan to be at Harvard Mass on Sunday and I would be happy to let you try out my slicked up Henry, so you get an idea what we are talking about.

 

Let me know.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Thanks Driftwood, I sent you a PM.

 

So is it wise to change out the springs even if you leave the rest of the action stock?

 

-Willy

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

So is it wise to change out the springs even if you leave the rest of the action stock?

 

Howdy Again

 

Here is the general logic regarding springs and action jobs. When Uberti or just about any modern manufacturer assembles a firearm today, most of the parts are popped into the gun with virtually no custom fitting. The assembler just takes parts from a parts bin and assembles the gun.

 

A long time ago, some parts were made ever so slightly oversized in certain dimensions. The idea was that the assembly people were more than just assemblers. Many of them were highly skilled at custom fitting the parts. In order for the gun to function at its best, the mating surfaces that rub against each other need to be perfectly fitted and highly polished. When this is done, the parts will work together in unison and there will be a minimum amount of friction generated by the parts rubbing against each other. Highly skilled assemblers who performed these tasks years ago were not terribly highly paid by modern standards, so firearms manufactured in this labor intensive manner could sell for a reasonable price. The beauty of this method of manufacturing firearms was that they usually performed perfectly right out of the box. No action jobs or lighter springs were needed, the guns were smooth and slick, and a delight to use.

 

For the last 30 or 40 years or so, the trend has been to drive out cost in all forms of manufacturing by eliminating costly hand labor. One highly touted method is the use of CNC (Computer Numerical Control) machining methods. The claim with CNC machining is that parts can be made to such tight tolerances that no custom fitting is needed. Unfortunately, modern manufacturers are under such pressure to reduce cost that they usually crank up the CNC equipment to very high feed rates in order to crank out as many parts per hour as possible. The practical result of this is that even though the parts are very close to perfect size, there are usually rough surfaces and burrs left on the parts from the high speed CNC machining processes, and these rough surfaces and burrs generate extra friction as the parts rub against each other. So in order to overcome the extra friction present in the action, manufacturers usually put in springs that are stronger than the old style springs. So with the average Italian made replica when you pull the hammer of a single action revolver, or work the lever of a rifle, you have to overcome the extra friction, and the stronger springs to work the gun.

 

Incidentally, this is the basis of the misconception of those who insist that by shooting 'box stock' guns they are somehow duplicating shooting guns the way it was done 'back in the day'. They fail to realize that most quality firearms came off the assembly line far more user friendly 'back in the day' than many modern guns do.

 

So following that logic, simply replacing springs, without reducing internal friction, may result in a firearm that fails to fire reliably. The lower powered main spring may not be strong enough to drive the hammer fast enough and overcome the friction in the system to fire a primer every time. There is a point at which a lighter spring will help somewhat, but eventually, friction may become a problem. However, if a firearm is tuned up properly so that as much friction as possible has been removed from the system, then lighter springs can be substituted and still be strong enough to keep the gun firing reliably. In that case not only is the shooter working against less friction as he operates the gun, he is also working against lighter springs. This is why we often say that just replacing springs is not an action job.

 

As already noted, replacing the links in a toggle link gun will result in requiring more effort to work the action, because of the loss of leverage. Coupling a short stroke job with a good action job and lighter springs, will counteract the extra effort needed to work the action in a rifle. If you are concerned about keeping a rifle on your shoulder while working the lever, this is something to consider.

 

On a side note, the lever spring and carrier spring that come in most Uberti toggle link guns can actually cause significant wear to the gun. This is particularly true of the lever spring. It is a heavy spring that bears against a cam mounted on the lever. It functions to keep the lever closed all the way or open all the way. But it bears against the cam with such force that if one is a serious shooter and shoots the gun alot and shoots it fast, significant wear can happen. That is why Happy Trails developed his Whisper Springs. They are a new design that keep the gun functioning without needing to lighten the original springs, and will not cause the kind of long term wear that the stock springs will. There are now other companies making similar springs, but Hap's Whisper Springs were the first.

 

The bottom line is, you really should shoot the gun for a while to get used to it, and to understand where it could benefit from some improvement. Almost all of them will function just fine out of the box. But to paraphrase Nate, if you take the family sedan out on the racetrack and race it every week, sooner or later you will see your transmission bouncing down the track in your rear view mirror.

 

Sorry for the long post, but you asked about one of my favorite subjects.

[Deacon Tom]

Well know ya tell me. I just got done installing a Super Short from Pioneer gunworks with Slix springs for the carrier. The rifle Uberti 1866 Yellowboy 45colt. I was yelling like a mad HABANCHI!!! I modified the brass CARRIER because I have a 45 cowboy carrier on order from AJ's. I did not belive it was going to be such an ordeal to modify the kit and the springs to fit. If it looks like it is touching it is touching and will have to be filed if it needs to be bent bend it out of the way. Remeber to Ever to Endever