Dantankerous Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I have recently run across what the seller, a local reputable dealer, has for sale what the shop claims to be a Smith and Wesson break top, double action in 44 Russian. Looks like the barrel has been cut down to about 4". It has been reblued. The serial number is a 4 digit number. The pistol does not have the traditional long trigger guard spur the S&W Russians had. The grips are a dark grey plastic with the old Smith and Wesson logo on them. The gun seems to be in great shape. I thought it might be a choice for pocket pistol side matches. Can any of you provide info on this? I am having trouble finding info on a 4 digit serial on the web. How can I tell for certain this is actually a S&W and not a copy? I know almost nothing about the old Smiths but this looks like a neat piece to add to the collection. Sorry, no pics of the gun I am looking at, but this one looks just like it. Thanks! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Red Ryder Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Are you sure it's a S&W revolver? I've seen Spanish and Belgian period copies with rubber grips marked very close to the S&W grips. Some Spanish ones are in cal .44 Russian, as it was a caliber adopted in Spain for handguns (this caliber couls be too used in the German ReichRevolvers). I've a Spanish copy but small .38 cal with the barrel ridge stamped "Smith and Wesson cartridges are those which fit in Smith and Wesson revolver"... It's written S&W on the barrel and can mislead the collector....My copy is worn, had been nickle plated and grips period replaced by blonde ox horn riveted on the handle, but I'm still happy to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Could be a S & W .44 cal. Double Action First model. Pror to 1900 had "S&W" monogram checkered har rubber or walnut grips. made 1881 to 1913. serial range 1-54,668 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 If it's a .44 Russian its not a pocket pistol. Pocket pistols are supposed to be small frame guns. The gun in the picture doesn't look like a .44. It looks like the .38 Double Action, third or fourth model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 Are you sure it's a S&W revolver? I've seen Spanish and Belgian period copies with rubber grips marked very close to the S&W grips. Some Spanish ones are in cal .44 Russian, as it was a caliber adopted in Spain for handguns (this caliber couls be too used in the German ReichRevolvers). I've a Spanish copy but small .38 cal with the barrel ridge stamped "Smith and Wesson cartridges are those which fit in Smith and Wesson revolver"... It's written S&W on the barrel and can mislead the collector....My copy is worn, had been nickle plated and grips period replaced by blonde ox horn riveted on the handle, but I'm still happy to have it. I am NOT certain that the gun is a S&W although the seller has it marked as one. I do not remember seeing and S&W markings on the barrel. If so, this could be a Spanish, Belgium or German copy. I am going to go back and look it over again. I am thinking that unless it is a US made model, it will not have S&W markings on it. No sure though. I may buy it anyway as it is in great condition. Now for shooting it... I see that Black Hills makes .44 Russian. BUT APPARENTLY it is a nonissue as SASS Shooters Handbook says on page 17 that the side match guns must be a small frame. Still, it would be a shame to not shoot it. Would be tempted, but not sure as to the safety factor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I am NOT certain that the gun is a S&W although the seller has it marked as one. I do not remember seeing and S&W markings on the barrel. If so, this could be a Spanish, Belgium or German copy. I am going to go back and look it over again. I am thinking that unless it is a US made model, it will not have S&W markings on it. No sure though. I may buy it anyway as it is in great condition. Now for shooting it... I see that Black Hills makes .44 Russian. BUT APPARENTLY it is a nonissue as SASS Shooters Handbook says on page 17 that the side match guns must be a small frame. Still, it would be a shame to not shoot it. Would be tempted, but not sure as to the safety factor... It would be legal as a NCOWS main match pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Howdy Smith and Wesson only made one large frame top break double action revolver. Generally they were called the 44 Double Action. The most common caliber they came in was 44 Russian, so sometimes they were called a 44 Russian. I have even seen old S&W catalogs that referred to the 44 DA as a Russian model. But technically, the Russian model was a single action gun. Pettifogger is correct, the gun in your photo is not a 44 DA. Here is a photo of a 44 DA. Notice the vertical grooves on the cylinder. All S&W 44 DA revolvers had these vertical grooves. Notice the gun in your photo does not have those grooves. S&W DA 44 S&W DA 44 The 44 DA came in three models. The one in this photo is sometimes called the First Model. The first model was usually chambered for 44 Russian, but was sometimes chambered for other calibers too. The Double Action Frontier model was chambered for 44-40. In order to accommodate the longer 44-40 round, both the cylinder and the frame of this model were longer than the standard 44 DA model. Another variation was called the 38 Winchester Double Action. This one also had the longer cylinder and was chambered for 38-40. Lastly, there was one rare version made, the 44 Double Action Wesson Favorite. This model was made on speculation that the Russian government would repeat their earlier interest and buy a double action revolver. The Favorite was lighter than the standard versions and only came with a 5" barrel. These are rare and are quite valuable. All these models were also available with target sights too, although they were rather crude by our standards today. The grips are hard rubber, not plastic. They tend to be brittle, so be careful with them. Yes, there were foreign copies made of these guns, but I have never seen one with real S&W grips on it, although I suppose anything is possible. The photo of my 44 DA shows the typical grips that came with one of these. There should also be patent dates on the top of the barrel rib, specifically stating that the gun was made by S&W in Springfield Mass. I have to warn you, these guns were not designed for Smokeless ammo. Mine has been shot loose by too much Smokeless ammo. Despite what you may hear, even the light modern Smokeless loads made today will shock the frame too much. Mine needs some TLC before I can shoot it, and once I have it in good shape I will only shoot Black Powder loads in it. All the frames for these guns were made prior to 1898, even though they remained in the catalog until 1913 or so. That means that according to the government, they are all antiques. These guns were not hot sellers, many of them stayed in inventory for years, some being assembled from parts long after all the frames had been made. Because of this, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly when the gun shipped. S&W does not maintain records of when the guns were actually made, only records of when they shipped. If you buy the gun and want to determine when it shipped, post a question on the S&W Forum in the Antiques section of the forum. Most of the guys there will be able to get you pretty close to the actual ship date. A four digit SN does indicate it is a fairly early gun. Mine has a four digit SN too. S&W Forum You can also contact Roy Jinks, the official S&W historian at the S&W Forum and get the gun lettered for $50. I don't mean to discourage you, they are very cool old guns. I can't wait to get mine fixed up. But I will not be shooting any modern Smokeless ammo through it. If you'd like, I can take a photo of the top rib of mine so you can see what the barrel markings should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 Howdy Smith and Wesson only made one large frame top break double action revolver. Generally they were called the 44 Double Action. The most common caliber they came in was 44 Russian, so sometimes they were called a 44 Russian. I have even seen old S&W catalogs that referred to the 44 DA as a Russian model. But technically, the Russian model was a single action gun. Pettifogger is correct, the gun in your photo is not a 44 DA. Here is a photo of a 44 DA. Notice the vertical grooves on the cylinder. All S&W 44 DA revolvers had these vertical grooves. Notice the gun in your photo does not have those grooves. S&W DA 44 S&W DA 44 The 44 DA came in three models. The one in this photo is sometimes called the First Model. The first model was usually chambered for 44 Russian, but was sometimes chambered for other calibers too. The Double Action Frontier model was chambered for 44-40. In order to accommodate the longer 44-40 round, both the cylinder and the frame of this model were longer than the standard 44 DA model. Another variation was called the 38 Winchester Double Action. This one also had the longer cylinder and was chambered for 38-40. Lastly, there was one rare version made, the 44 Double Action Wesson Favorite. This model was made on speculation that the Russian government would repeat their earlier interest and buy a double action revolver. The Favorite was lighter than the standard versions and only came with a 5" barrel. These are rare and are quite valuable. All these models were also available with target sights too, although they were rather crude by our standards today. The grips are hard rubber, not plastic. They tend to be brittle, so be careful with them. Yes, there were foreign copies made of these guns, but I have never seen one with real S&W grips on it, although I suppose anything is possible. The photo of my 44 DA shows the typical grips that came with one of these. There should also be patent dates on the top of the barrel rib, specifically stating that the gun was made by S&W in Springfield Mass. I have to warn you, these guns were not designed for Smokeless ammo. Mine has been shot loose by too much Smokeless ammo. Despite what you may hear, even the light modern Smokeless loads made today will shock the frame too much. Mine needs some TLC before I can shoot it, and once I have it in good shape I will only shoot Black Powder loads in it. All the frames for these guns were made prior to 1898, even though they remained in the catalog until 1913 or so. That means that according to the government, they are all antiques. These guns were not hot sellers, many of them stayed in inventory for years, some being assembled from parts long after all the frames had been made. Because of this, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly when the gun shipped. S&W does not maintain records of when the guns were actually made, only records of when they shipped. If you buy the gun and want to determine when it shipped, post a question on the S&W Forum in the Antiques section of the forum. Most of the guys there will be able to get you pretty close to the actual ship date. A four digit SN does indicate it is a fairly early gun. Mine has a four digit SN too. S&W Forum You can also contact Roy Jinks, the official S&W historian at the S&W Forum and get the gun lettered for $50. I don't mean to discourage you, they are very cool old guns. I can't wait to get mine fixed up. But I will not be shooting any modern Smokeless ammo through it. If you'd like, I can take a photo of the top rib of mine so you can see what the barrel markings should be. Driftwood, Your pic is exactly what I was looking at except that the barrel was cut down to 4 inches. The top rib is recessed about 3/8 back from the muzzle. There are NO patent markings on the gun anywhere. The dealer thinks that they were removed during the process preparing the gun for reblueing but does not know for sure. The salesman also commented that he would not shoot it. He showed me where there is a tiny bit of play between the top strap where it locks to the receiver frame. I have no idea how much play would be acceptable on this type of gun. I would love to shoot one, but I agree that smokeless powder loads in these old BP guns is probably not a good idea. Does anyone offer BP loads in .44 Russian? Maybe I'll just wait for a Uberti Scholfield. The price on this old gun is under $250.00 thus my interest. Thanks, everyone. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Howdy Yes, Buffalo Arms advertises 44 Russian Black Powder loads. buffalo arms 44 russian For that price I would buy it in a heartbeat. I'd worry about making it work later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 What is the weak spot on these break tops? The cylinder or the where the top strap latches to the frame? I assume that BP loads would produce less pressure on these older guns thus the safer load to use? Is it typical of the cylinder to free spin a bit (will rotate easily back and forth maybe 1/2 inch) with the gun in a non cocked position? When I start to pull the trigger in double action, the cylinder is tight. When I cock the hammer in single action, the cylinder is also tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtwater Doc 17941 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 For that price buy it. It is antique and should be transferable without an FFL. If it is a 44DA it is the "steal" of the decade. But it is probably a 1st/2nd/3rd model DA in 38 S&W caliber (or maybe 32 S&W) and perfectly suited as a pocket pistol for a good price. DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 For that price buy it. It is antique and should be transferable without an FFL. If it is a 44DA it is the "steal" of the decade. But it is probably a 1st/2nd/3rd model DA in 38 S&W caliber (or maybe 32 S&W) and perfectly suited as a pocket pistol for a good price. DD It is definately a .44 and most likely the .44 Russian. On my second visit to the store today I brought along some EMPTY .44 Special and 44-40 brass to drop into the cylinder to make certian of the caliber. .44 is a perfect fit. The .44 Special brass looked like it was darn near the right length in the cylinder. The 4 digit serial number indicates it was made for BP and that would be several years before .44 Special (smokeless) came out, so .44 Russian would be the likely candidate... ...as far as I know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 The .44 Russian was a fix to the previsou .44 American cartridge that used a healed bullet. These are no interchangeable. The chambers of the .44 Amercian do NOT have the ridge near the case mouth. The .44 American can be found and reloaded but I have read that it not a fun gun to load or shoot. This might explain the low price. More likley, tha shop just does not know what it is selling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 As long as the cylinder locks up and the chamber aligns with the bore, it sounds OK to shoot. Another thing to check is endshake - does the cylinder have a lot of slop and travel fore & aft, or does it just move a little bit? If it only has a little bit (like a modern revolver) it hasn't been abused or shot out. The play in the latch - that can always be fixed. For $250 I'd buy it without hesitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtwater Doc 17941 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 It is definately a .44 and most likely the .44 Russian. On my second visit to the store today I brought along some EMPTY .44 Special and 44-40 brass to drop into the cylinder to make certian of the caliber. .44 is a perfect fit. The .44 Special brass looked like it was darn near the right length in the cylinder. The 4 digit serial number indicates it was made for BP and that would be several years before .44 Special (smokeless) came out, so .44 Russian would be the likely candidate... ...as far as I know... These pistols were somewhat (sorry) cantankerous and the single action sear often failed. I know this because I sold a 44DA from the collection of deceased friend. It was in pieces and I was lucky to find a gunsmith to repair and reassemble it but it only works as a DA now. The SA part needed is simply not available but could be fabricated at significant cost. This is how it looked when completed. http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c189/DirtwaterDoc/SandW%2044DA/ It had an S&W factory letter but that was moot since the pistol was modified. I sold it for considerably more than the one you are considering. Buy it!! DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 It is definately a .44 and most likely the .44 Russian. On my second visit to the store today I brought along some EMPTY .44 Special and 44-40 brass to drop into the cylinder to make certian of the caliber. .44 is a perfect fit. The .44 Special brass looked like it was darn near the right length in the cylinder. The 4 digit serial number indicates it was made for BP and that would be several years before .44 Special (smokeless) came out, so .44 Russian would be the likely candidate... ...as far as I know... Howdy Again ALL the 44DA top break smiths frames were made before 1899, despite the fact that some were still in the catalog as late as 1913. This means they were all made for Black Powder. If it is loose, it is probably from shooting Smokeless in it. David Chicoine goes into some detail in his book Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West as to why the old top break Smiths should not be fired with Smokeless. The recoil can stretch the steel in the frame, which results in the latch being loose. My DA 44 is loose enough at the latch that I can slip a .008 shim between the top of the frame and the underside of the barrel extension. Most 44 DA revolvers had a cylinder about 1 7/16" long. The guns that were chambered for 38-40 and 44-40 had cylinders about 1 9/16" long. Some of the later guns did have the longer cylinders with the 44 Russian chambering, this was probably to use up existing parts. But the early guns, were mostly chambered for 44 Russian with the short cylinders. I do not believe any of these guns were chambered for 44 Special, that cartridge was not invented until about 1908. I suppose though that there is nothing to have stopped somebody from rechambering one for 44 Sp. 44 Special ammo will not chamber completely in my 44 DA by almost 3/16". The cylinder is barely long enough that if it were rechambered, a 44 Sp round would barely fit without hanging out of the mouth of the chambers. That is why S&W made the 44 Sp round longer, so they would not chamber in these 44 Russian revolvers, just like the story with 38 Sp/357Mag and 44Sp/44 Mag. The 44 Sp round was developed about 1908 for the 44 Handejector, First Model, popularly known as the Triple Lock. I also do not believe Smith bothered to chamber any of them for 44 S&W American, the Russian round made the American round obsolete. There should be a shoulder in each chamber and the mouth of the proper brass should snug right up near the shoulder. Another thing you should do is check the gun for serial numbers. The SN should show up in four places on an old top break Smith. Bottom of the butt, rear of the cylinder, underside of the latch, and on the barrel extension near the latch. You have to look carefully to find that last place. Mine is stamped on the rear face of the wide notch in the rear of the barrel where the latch resides. All serial numbers should be the same, to verify the gun left the factory with those parts. If any of the serial numbers differ from what is on the bottom of the butt, it did not leave the factory with those parts. Here is a photo of the markings on the top rib of my 44 DA. I suppose an overzealous polisher could have polished them off when the gun was refinished, but it is more common that they are still there, although they may have been polished out somewhat. Markings You asked about the cylinder rotating a bit. These guns had a pretty funky cylinder locking system. The cylinder has two separate sets of locking notches. You can see them in the accompanying photo. The rear set engages the bolt like most other revolvers. The bolt is spring loaded and pops up into one of these notches pretty much like any other revolver, as the hammer goes back in either single action or double action mode. But unlike most other revolvers, when the trigger goes forward, the bolt is retracted. Cylinder Detail There is an extension on the trigger that fits into the front set of notches. When the trigger is forward, this extension sits in one of the forward cylinder notches, preventing the cylinder from rotating. This extension is not spring loaded, it is part of the trigger. The way the timing works is as the hammer starts to go back, it pulls the trigger back too. That pivots the extension on the front of the trigger down out of its locking notch. At the same time, the bolt spring starts to push the regular bolt up. The bolt is spring loaded, so the cylinder will not lock until it has rotated the correct amount. When the hammer falls, the spring loaded bolt stays up, keeping the cylinder at battery. When the next shot is taken the sequence starts all over again with the trigger extension rotating down out of its locking slot. The vertical flutes on the cylinder, between the forward set of notches are clearance cuts. They allow the gun to close if the cylinder is between notches. If the clearance cuts were not there, and the cylinder was not lined up properly, you could not close the gun without breaking something, since the locking extension on the front of the trigger would be up and would bang into the cylinder when you tried to close the gun. These clearance cuts will allow the cylinder to rotate a bit if it has not been closed with the cylinder lined up. That is normal, and that is what you were experiencing. When I close my 44 DA, I place my thumb and forefinger into two flutes on either side of the backstrap, 'pinching' the cylinder in the proper place. Then I close the gun and the trigger extension locks the cylinder in the correct place. I have attached a photo of the bolt area of the frame. The trigger extension is in its normal up position, the bolt behind it is retracted. Note that the cylinder cuts for the trigger extension are oval, not rectangular, because the extension is oval in shape. Bolt Detail There is a 'safety click' on the hammer about 1/16" back. It is no safer than the 'safety notch' on the hammer of a Colt. All it does is keep the hammer back with the firing pin away from a primer. If you drop the gun on the hammer, this 'safety feature' will probably break and the gun will probably fire, just like a Colt. When I open up my 44 DA, I first bring the hammer back to this 'safety click'. As an aside, most of the early S&W 32 and 38 top breaks had this same funky lock up system as the 44 DA. As time went on, S&W modified the system and did away with the dual locking notches on the 32 and 38 top breaks. The 32 and 38 top breaks were very popular, and a lot of them were made. But the 44 DA never sold a whole lot, and Smith did not bother updating its locking system as they did with the smaller guns. If it wuz me, and the gun was in any sort of reasonable shape, at $250 I would buy it in a heartbeat. But I am a S&W collector and love these old Top Breaks. Hope this has been of some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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