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Frontiersman question


Holden A. Grudge

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When for whatever reason a cap does not fire(cap fragments in hammer mechanism or something), do you have to dry fire all the way around to have it hit again or can you simply go to half cock and rotate the cylinder to the right position?

 

And if you have to dry fire around, does this seriously damage the nipples?

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You can return to that cap in any fashion you choose so long as the barrel remains down range and you don't let the hammer down on a live cap or cylinder. TO/ROs are instructed that Frontiersmen a nd cap 'n' ballers are given some latitude in completing a stage. I once tore down and reassembled an 1860 Colt copy on the line to repair a malfunction and complete a stage and thus a clean match. Pistol must still be fired one handed.

 

One time dry firing usually won't do much damage to a nipple.

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Howdy

 

Nothing says you have to dry fire it all the way around. If the cap simply did not go off, keep shooting as many rounds as will light off. Then put it on half cock and bring the problem chamber to the position so that cocking the hammer will put it under the hammer. If you have cap fragments down inside, and the gun is completely jammed, ground the gun and move on.

 

Never a good idea to dry fire on bare nipples. (edit) yeah, probably won't hurt once, but not a good idea to make a practice of it.

 

If on the other hand, the cap goes off but does not light off the charge, that's a different story.

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The nipples will not be damaged by shooting through. If the gun is set up properly the hammer doesn't quite touch the nipple anyway.

If it's not tuned right and the does smack into the nipple, it takes quite a while before they start to mushroom. But like Driftwood said, it's not a good idea to do it regularly.

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Howdy Holden, yes you can do what is needed to resolve the malfunction. If it's a bad cap you can replace the cap if you want to take the time. Good Luck :)

 

Shooters Handbook page 14

• “Duelist Style” is defined as shooting a revolver cocked and fired one handed, unsupported. The revolver, hand, or shooting arm may not be touched by the off hand except when resolving a malfunctioning revolver problem or when transferring the revolver from one hand to the other.

 

Also if the RO is not familiar with C&B, try to explain to them the difference in a "cap only" ingnition as opposed to a squib.

RO III page 7

FRONTIERSMAN CATEGORY

The Chief Range Officer shall be prepared for the unique problems associated with

cap and ball revolvers. These items include potential “hang-fires,” “cap only” ignition,

and a complete failure to fire. In a “cap only” ignition and failure to fire, the

Frontiersman should be allowed to continue firing the remaining chambers. The Range

Officer shall not confuse these occurrences as potential squib loads.

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Thank you all for your answers. I hadn't even thought about this until I took the C&B pistols out to shoot the first time (gearing up for frontiersman) and had a small piece of cap fall in just the right spot to keep the hammer from hitting the next cap.

 

It cleared when the hammer was pulled again but that left me with an unfired cap, which lead me to this question. I definitely didn't want to "fire through" and just wanted to make sure I could just spin the cylindar into position without braking any rules.

 

I managed to get 40 shots from each pistol and this only happened once and no jamming problems. One pistol got a little stiff but neither required a wipe down to keep going. I was pretty impressed.

 

Of course this was just punching holes in paper. I am sure Murphy will bite me the first match I shoot them in.

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Nobody would expect you to dry fire around.

Put it on half-cock, rotate the cylinder, & get beck to shooting.

--Dawg

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Howdy!

In a cap-only ignition, after one finishes shooting the rest of the capped/loaded chambers, can one go back, remove any remaining cap debris if needed, recap the charged chamber and try again to fire it?

 

Agree: the time used will normally take longer than 5 seconds for the miss. however, if you're on a clean match run I'd take the time. I'm shooting FM because of the style not the time.

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Howdy!

In a cap-only ignition, after one finishes shooting the rest of the capped/loaded chambers, can one go back, remove any remaining cap debris if needed, recap the charged chamber and try again to fire it?

 

yup

pretend its the real west fer a second

 

the bad guy is still out there

I would recap and then.....kill..... the dirty bugger

 

just so that I could sleep at night

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OK, original question has been answered well, so I'll hijack a bit.

 

RO II page 8 as amended in most recent version found HERE.

FRONTIERSMAN CATEGORY

The Chief Range Officer shall be prepared for the unique problems associated with

cap and ball revolvers. These items include potential “hang-fires,” “cap only” ignition, and a complete failure to fire. In a “cap only” ignition and failure to fire, the Frontiersman should be allowed to continue firing the remaining chambers. The Range Officer shall not confuse these occurrences as potential squib loads. Misfires on the firing line by Frontiersman will require the Chief Range Officer to accommodate clearing the gun after completing the stage. The Range Officer shall always require these clearances be accomplished at the firing line. It is acceptable to recap and discharge the still loaded chamber(s) or simply uncap the charged chambers.

 

I have pretty much zero experience with cap and ball revolvers. Can you all please describe each of the following terms, telling what has happened, what it would look like, what it would sound like, and what would be need to be done to resolve it.

 

Hang Fire

 

 

Cap only ignition

 

 

Complete failure to fire

 

 

 

I think I have some ideas, but best to ask them what have the experience rather than guess.

 

Thanks

Grizz

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OK, original question has been answered well, so I'll hijack a bit.

 

RO II page 8 as amended in most recent version found HERE.

FRONTIERSMAN CATEGORY

The Chief Range Officer shall be prepared for the unique problems associated with

cap and ball revolvers. These items include potential “hang-fires,” “cap only” ignition, and a complete failure to fire. In a “cap only” ignition and failure to fire, the Frontiersman should be allowed to continue firing the remaining chambers. The Range Officer shall not confuse these occurrences as potential squib loads. Misfires on the firing line by Frontiersman will require the Chief Range Officer to accommodate clearing the gun after completing the stage. The Range Officer shall always require these clearances be accomplished at the firing line. It is acceptable to recap and discharge the still loaded chamber(s) or simply uncap the charged chambers.

 

I have pretty much zero experience with cap and ball revolvers. Can you all please describe each of the following terms, telling what has happened, what it would look like, what it would sound like, and what would be need to be done to resolve it.

 

Hang Fire

 

"POP" pause, BANG! Nothing required for an RO to do here. Gun fires after a short delay.

 

 

Cap only ignition

 

"POP" no bang. Sounds like a primer only ignition (which it is) Shooter will normally cock again and fire the remaining rounds. Nothing for the RO to do here either, the shooter should know what to do. It is helpful (especially when said shooter has more than one) if the RO remembers how many shots are fired.

Complete failure to fire

 

Goes click and no nothing. Shooter will normally go around again and attempt to fire this chamber again. In this case and the cap only above, the shooter has THE OPTION of re-capping and attempting to fire or he may EITHER hand off the gun or holster. (this is unwise if the round under the hammer is LOADED which for a C&B means cap, powder and ball. If it is a "fired" or dud cap, would be treated just like a cartridge gun. Dud round is not a live round.)

I think I have some ideas, but best to ask them what have the experience rather than guess.

 

Thanks

Grizz

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Hang fire--cap goes pop & there is a noticable time delay before the main charge ignites.

rare in revolvers in my experience. More common in muzzle loading rifles and single shot pistols.

 

Cap only ignition--cap goes pop but main charge does not ignite.

I see this occasionally. Nipple channel my be blocked by debris or powder may be wet/fouled.

 

Complete failure to fire--hammer drops and nothing happens.

Most common in my experience due to failure of shooter to fully seat cap. Usually the first hammer blow seats it and the second hammer blow fires it.

Common on rainy days if caps get wet.

--Dawg

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OK, thanks guys, pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. So for a cap only ignition, the cap needs to be pulled off, and then the ball pulled at the unloading table or similar safe place.

 

Thanks again

 

Grizz

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Howdy!

As above, in a cap-only ignition, the shooter may stay at the line, and recap the charged chamber and try to finish the course of fire, if they're willing to take the time. If they decide to just take the miss, it appears they can just remove any cap debris at the unloading table. I don't see where they need to pull the ball and dump the powder, as it's no longer considered 'loaded' without a cap on the nipple.

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Howdy!

As above, in a cap-only ignition, the shooter may stay at the line, and recap the charged chamber and try to finish the course of fire, if they're willing to take the time. If they decide to just take the miss, it appears they can just remove any cap debris at the unloading table. I don't see where they need to pull the ball and dump the powder, as it's no longer considered 'loaded' without a cap on the nipple.

A common procedure is to re-cap the cylinder and discharge it at the firing line - all with the ROs permission of course. Since the reliablility of that cylinder is in doubt, best to fire it clear before shooting on another stage.

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Grizz:

Before pulling the ball, I would run a nipple pick thru the nipple channel, recap and fire again.

This can be done after the stage, with the permission of the RO.

I usually carry my nipple pick & a caper around my neck, so it just takes a moment to do this.

--Dawg

 

 

 

 

 

OK, thanks guys, pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. So for a cap only ignition, the cap needs to be pulled off, and then the ball pulled at the unloading table or similar safe place.

 

Thanks again

 

Grizz

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Howdy!

As above, in a cap-only ignition, the shooter may stay at the line, and recap the charged chamber and try to finish the course of fire, if they're willing to take the time. If they decide to just take the miss, it appears they can just remove any cap debris at the unloading table. I don't see where they need to pull the ball and dump the powder, as it's no longer considered 'loaded' without a cap on the nipple.

OR, if it don't go off after recapping, pull the nipple, dribble in a few grains of extra powder, replace nipple & cap; never had one fail after that. Just make sure the RO is aware and oks what you're doin', where & when!

 

However, be advised, here in TX, quittin' before at least ONE attempt to recap will gain ya a new alias... "Congessman!" Ain't they the ones most likely to give up before the fights' over? Or maybe that's them newspaperman! :ph34r:

 

Just kidding!

 

 

 

 

 

...Sorta.

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OK, thanks guys, pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. So for a cap only ignition, the cap needs to be pulled off, and then the ball pulled at the unloading table or similar safe place.

 

Thanks again

 

Grizz

Howdy Grizz, never seen anyone pull the ball. Usually they will either re-cap on the line and try to fire the round, or after the stage ask the RO if they can go to the line and fire the round to clear the chamber.

Misfires on the firing line by Frontiersman will require the Chief Range Officer to accommodate clearing the gun after completing the stage

 

The thing to be aware of is the sound of a cap only ignition as opposed to a squib, this is so the RO does not stop the shooter for a squib everytime they hear a cap. After a while you get used to the sound. However if you choose to lean on the side of caution be prepared to give a re-shoot if there is no squip. Good Luck

For example, if the Range Officer stops a shooter from completing a shooting sequence because of a suspected squib load, and the gun turns out to be “clear,” the Range Officer has impeded the progress of the shooter, and a restart is in order.

 

Jefro :ph34r:

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Hey Holden,

If you can be at the next Marysville match (Sunday, May 8th), I will be there campaigning my Remington C&B's.

I'd be happy to posse with ya and answer any questions.

 

Oh and Shadowcatcher will be with me as well.

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So, how does the RO who doesn't shoot C&B know the difference between a cap only detonition and a squib? We don't have many C&B shooters who also will run the timer to jump in when the situation requires. Yeah, I know it would be good to learn the difference but I'm not sure that's really practical. We might have one or two C&B shooters every few months.

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Checotah,

 

I just finished shooting Arroyo Cantua with the one and only Wimpy Hank Yoho and the exact thing

happened to me. I had a cap only ignition and the TO was a cartridge only shooter. It helped that

other Frontiersman on the posse spoke up immediately and I was able to continue on with that pistol.

 

You could hope that an RO manual is handy at the range and if someone is shooting a C&B, they refresh

themselves of the rules beforehand, Dammit! :ph34r:

 

Good Luck,

 

JUD

mystery writer

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey Holden,

If you can be at the next Marysville match (Sunday, May 8th), I will be there campaigning my Remington C&B's.

I'd be happy to posse with ya and answer any questions.

 

Oh and Shadowcatcher will be with me as well.

 

Thanks Pard. Not gonna make that match (mother's day and all) but am planning on shooting in Mima on the 14th. Not sure if I am gonna break out the C&B or just stick with my cartridge guns for that one. Depends on the weaterh and my ability to get some black powder loads for rifle and shotgun......o'course I could always just use smokeless in those and shoot the C&Bs anyway in Classic Cowboy.

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"Hangfires" (delayed ignition)are rare to non-existent with cap & ball revolvers.

Either they fire, or they don't, usually.

 

Proper maintenance and cleaning and use of properly fitting caps on the nipple cones

will avoid almost all failures to fire problems.

 

If a Cap pops but no shot, trouble is normally a fouled nipple vent, or mebbe a raindrop got on the nipple cone

and soaked it in rainy weather.

In this case, keep on shooting the remaining loads, then ground the pistol take the miss and get on with the

stage.

 

If No pop at all when hammer drops, could be either a cap has fallen off, or maybe one wasn't seated all the way.

Shoot the remaining charges, then index the dead one, if the cap is still there, fire it, if no cap

you have the option of taking the miss or recapping that chamber on the clock and firing it. Your choice.

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I have never seen a Hangfire with a cap and ball pistol, seen in rifles. Colt type pistols are the only guns that I have seen that will not fire because of cap parts dropping down between hammer and frame. If you have a gun dropping cap parts in the hammer frame area you need to change the hammer spring (it's to light) or back off a little on the powder or both. Once you get your hammer spring and powder charge right you should not have a cap dripping in the way except maybe once in every 1000 rounds or more.

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It ain't the hammer spring or the charge amount that causes cap fragments to drop

into the hammer slot and foul the next shot.

 

What it is, is the flash holes in the nipples are too large. The blowback thru the flash hole from

the charge firing blows the cap carcass off the nipple and it lifts the hammer and

cap debris lodges under the hammer in the hammer slot. This can happen even with strong mainsprings

and mild charges...The force on the hammer nose is directly related to the area of the flash hole

in the nipple.

 

This is quite common with new imported Italian guns and the FIX for it is to get good

aftermarket nipples that have properly sized flash holes in them, and consistent

dimension cones so the caps will fit properly.

 

Once this problem is addressed and you change out the nipples, get and use caps that FIT

the(new)nipple cones properly, misfires become a non-happener.

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So, how does the RO who doesn't shoot C&B know the difference between a cap only detonition and a squib? We don't have many C&B shooters who also will run the timer to jump in when the situation requires. Yeah, I know it would be good to learn the difference but I'm not sure that's really practical. We might have one or two C&B shooters every few months.

 

Lack of smoke will usually mean just a cap went off.

Most of the troubles I have had were due to not seating the cap, and then it is no pop at all until the 2nd try. Learning to seat the caps with a pushstick alleviated that.

I can not think of a time I have ever had a true squib where the ball didnt leave the barrel... (knocks on wood)It has either fired or hasn't.

 

I have had hangfires, mainly due to not getting all the oil out before a session of practice. Thats been rare too, and usually is the first round of the day. If I have a chance, I usually go out and shoot a cylinder full from each gun the day before, just to clear the cylinders.

DM

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It ain't the hammer spring or the charge amount that causes cap fragments to drop

into the hammer slot and foul the next shot.

 

What it is, is the flash holes in the nipples are too large. The blowback thru the flash hole from

the charge firing blows the cap carcass off the nipple and it lifts the hammer and

cap debris lodges under the hammer in the hammer slot. This can happen even with strong mainsprings

and mild charges...The force on the hammer nose is directly related to the area of the flash hole

in the nipple.

 

This is quite common with new imported Italian guns and the FIX for it is to get good

aftermarket nipples that have properly sized flash holes in them, and consistent

dimension cones so the caps will fit properly.

 

Once this problem is addressed and you change out the nipples, get and use caps that FIT

the(new)nipple cones properly, misfires become a non-happener.

 

This will be my next step. I had planned on getting the treso nipples but figured I would take them out and shoot them a little to see how they did with the stock nipples. Shooting the equivilent of a full match I only had this happen twice. I also noticed that one time it only happened because the groove in the hammer grabbed spent cap and it stuck there.

 

So now I will fill the hammer groove and get me some tresos. Is it the remmington #10 or #11 that work best with those?

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I use only Rem #10 and Treso nips in all my cap guns.

Hammer faces are filled.

I clear the flash hole with a wire before filling with powder.

I seat caps with a dowel.

I have not had a cap fail to fire or cap in the action in 7 years.

Had a cap fall off once.

Had a cap get a drop of water in it once.

That aside, 100% ignition reliability

On Colts, Remmies, and ROAs.

 

By the way last cap in the action was with an ROA.

Don't know how it got in there, but it was and made the gun very hard to cock.

--Dawg

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Dawg,

You need to shoot a Walker more often. Last time I took mine clear apart, there were 3 or 4 very mangled caps down inside. They looked to have been there since Sam Colt was alive. That truck spring inside tends to not care about thin copper and manhandles it right into oblivion....

DM

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