Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Howdy, Just to let everybody know at least my Renegade the stroke is the same as my Cody Conagher short stroke, so I would lable it a 4th gen stroke as far as lever pull. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Hey KK, congrats to you and Filly for winning your categories at the Stampede. So how does the Renegade compare over all to a Codymatic? Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted April 19, 2011 Author Share Posted April 19, 2011 Hey KK, congrats to you and Filly for winning your categories at the Stampede. So how does the Renegade compare over all to a Codymatic? Grizz Howdy, Thanks Grizz for the Kind words, the Renegade needs work if you want a good smooth rifle,(will function fine out of the box),my Codymatic is nothing short of great, I sent the Renegade to OL#4 and he did the work and it came back extremely smooth,( Thanks OL#4) one thing to note is it comes with aluminum carrier and it is cheap and need to be replaced as soon as possible, the wood is very nice and I love the shotgun butt stock, for the price it is a great deal. KK ps this rifle was done by OL#4 and is as smooth or smoother than any other rifle I have handled and I have handle a lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 Howdy, Thanks Grizz for the Kind words, the Renegade needs work if you want a good smooth rifle,(will function fine out of the box),my Codymatic is nothing short of great, I sent the Renegade to OL#4 and he did the work and it came back extremely smooth,( Thanks OL#4) one thing to note is it comes with aluminum carrier and it is cheap and need to be replaced as soon as possible, the wood is very nice and I love the shotgun butt stock, for the price it is a great deal. KK ps this rifle was done by OL#4 and is as smooth or smoother than any other rifle I have handled and I have handle a lot of them. btt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concho Billy Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 btt I can't figure out my 357/38, the ammo has to be just right.......My 45 Renegade will feed about anything. You think it might be the carrier on the 357? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 I can't figure out my 357/38, the ammo has to be just right.......My 45 Renegade will feed about anything. You think it might be the carrier on the 357? I would start with that. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concho Billy Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I would start with that. KK Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I can't figure out my 357/38, the ammo has to be just right.......My 45 Renegade will feed about anything. You think it might be the carrier on the 357? This is a common issue with .357/.38 rifles. The carrier is sized to fit the OAL of a .357, but most of us shoot the shorter .38 in it. This means that the carrier has to push the next round back into the magazine while it moves up. There is a ramp in the carrier that helps push the bullet forward, but if your .38 bullets are too short, the rim of the case might be past the ramp. You can lengthen the ramp, or increase the OAL of your bullets. I use 147 gr TC bullets from Moulton lead that are longer than normal .38 bullets to approximate the OAL of the .357. With the longer OAL, less of the second bullet is protruding in the carrier; thus the carrier has an easier time pushing the bullet back into the magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Actually, if it's comparable to Cody's work, it's a 3rd generation-type kit. 4th gens were the first super-short stroke kits. I've got one coming in today or tomorrow to work on. Will let you know what I find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 Actually, if it's comparable to Cody's work, it's a 3rd generation-type kit. 4th gens were the first super-short stroke kits. I've got one coming in today or tomorrow to work on. Will let you know what I find out. Thanks for the correction I wasn't really sure. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim8086 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I have 2 Renegades-One i havnt shot yet both in 38/357-what type of carrier would be best? Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 I have 2 Renegades-One i havnt shot yet both in 38/357-what type of carrier would be best? Thank You Get a lightened brass carrier, from several different people on the wire. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Actually, if it's comparable to Cody's work, it's a 3rd generation-type kit. 4th gens were the first super-short stroke kits". Yep, like the esteemed Manatee himself said: 4th gens are the super short stroke of 4 1/8 inches. 4th Generation is a term that was used by the Cowboys and Indian store to describe their 4 1/8 inch kit ($275) that included a replacement lever. Their current 4 1/8 inch short stroke kit does not require a new lever ($160)and they refer to it as the 5th generation. Their 2nd generation was about 5 inches stroke and their third generation kit was about 4 1/2 inches (maybe more in some guns). Here I beg the opportunity to differ with the wise and learned Manatee, (please forgive me good sir) but I have not seen one of Cody's fine guns that was 4 1/2 inches. Additionally, I believe "super short stroke" is a term used by Pioneer (Joe Alves) to describe their 4 3/8 inch kit ($160). all that said, each and all of these terms are interchanged on the range each day and all have come into common use to describe a wide variety of stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Number4 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 On the "Short Stroke" dimensions of the Renegades, it looks very much like the "Super Short Stroke" kit from Pioneer Gun works. They did a good engineering job on the finger lever to speed the links but forgot to allow for the contact to drop the carrier faster. However to get the faster down action the carier has to be relieved so the bolt head will clear with proper timing. Then add a set screw to get the finger lever to conatct the carrier lever sooner. A pretty simple fix but an oversight by the engineers. I am doing more of these ad finding a lot of little things that are obviuosly cost cutting production measures. But at the price a good deal even with the added tuning measures. Ol' #4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McAllister Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Of course they are very comparable to the kit short strokes and are around the 4 5/8" length depending on the position of the trigger. Yes it still dumbfounds me that the trigger position is used to measure the length of the stroke! After they are tuned they stack up a little more at the beginning of the stroke like all other kit guns. I think the aluminum carriers like all the other aluminum carriers have some to be desired compared to the brass lightened ones. Still if you are getting one of these guns for $600.00 to $700.00 and pay a smith to do a $150.00 tune up job it's still a pretty decent value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Just got one in from UPS and popped the side plates. Not really a good looking set of links. The Cimarron, Snover, Pioneer 3rd gens look a lot better. I didn't look at finger lever angles...will do so when I start working on the gun. Right now, I plan on popping a Cimarron carrier lever in this thing to see if comes close to timing right. Personally, I never remove material from the carrier for timing clearance. Feed problems can develop. Much easier to remove material from the back side of the bolt mushroom, but whadda I know? Ran a dummy cartridge into the chamber. Feels like headspace is a little tight. Will know more when I start working on it next week. PV: Whether Cody's stroke length is 4 5/8" or not isn't really a big deal either way. I don't know anyone that cycles their gun at the measurement point that SASS uses on the lever. The real difference is always (to me anyways) where your middle finger sits in the lever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Personally, I never remove material from the carrier for timing clearance. Feed problems can develop. Much easier to remove material from the back side of the bolt mushroom, but whadda I know? Ditto on that. Did that to two of them last week. You showed me that a couple years ago and it works well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mulo Vaquero, SASS #55942 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I have not seen a Uberti supplied short stroke yet (not just Renegades), that the headspace was correct on. Always too tight, not letting the lever close all the way or worse yet, not lock up the toggles during battery. Timing has been an issue as well. Pins are set in, and have seen some fall out on the links. Should be welded. Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary. El Mulo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I've been amazed at the Renegades I've worked on so far. Pretty much .......... lousy. Have had the links fall out in pieces on two because the pins were too small or link wos too large and it was pointless to put them back in the gun. Replaced them with Pioneer link sets. I don't understand why Uberti changed the expensive part (finger lever) rather than the lifter arm. The lifter arm is same same as all the other Uberti rifles. Uberti just moved the step on the lever up to speed the links. Strange. Oh, and left out positive slam down. You have to weld a button or add a set screw somewhere or re-work a Pioneer arm and that's a nuisance. The aluminum carrier goes up and down, but there is a lot of drag. I don't like to remove material from an alloy carrier. I don't even like alloy carriers. The innards require all the same rubbin and buffin as any other '73 and after the usual spiff-up, the action still feels .......... wrong. I can't say they (Renegades) won't work and work well, they just don't "feel" right. Based on my experience with the links, I don't expect them to last even if they don't fall apart when the side plates come off. I do like the wood. Checkering is nice and the shotgun butt plate is cool, even if the angle is a mite steep. For the price, a good buy, understanding all of my above gripes are fixable (except for the "feel") and the gun WILL need some action work done. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim8086 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 May i ask what Pioneer link set you used short or super short ? I am still learning thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketchum Quick, SASS #72923 Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 On the Renegade, I have one and think it is going to work well for me. I havn't taken to the range yet but with any luck this week I will. Mine and the one that Deuce has, have been cleaned up on the inside, Whisper Springs have been added and tuned and the aluminum carrier has been replaced with a lightened brass one. I tuned up the sights but that of course has no impact of the feel of the internals. To me these guns feel pretty nice now. Yes, they do have the short stroke parts in there and they will ave the stack up in the lever travel but with the right tuning, that objectional feel can be minimized. I for one was a big nay-sayer about these '73s as I have been shooting a Spur Marlin for the last three years and they do not have any stack up feel in the lever travel. I have since realixed that when you are standing around in your gun room slowly cycling the action you are going to notice all the little imperfections in the levers travel. The thing that you have to realize is, when you are shooing the gun you are not running it that slow and your concentration should be on the targets and the shooting sequence. I am looking forward to taking my Renegade to the range and giving it a work out. I am pretty sure that I will like it. Stay tuned. Ketchum Quick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulls Head Bill SASS#33692 Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Personally, I never remove material from the carrier for timing clearance. Feed problems can develop. Much easier to remove material from the back side of the bolt mushroom, but whadda I know? THAT makes you a GENIUS!!! How do I know that? Because that's what I do!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Jim 8086 Uberti copied the Pioneer "Super Short" link set. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 I pretty much finished the tune-up of the Renegade yesterday. The lower tang group and bolt group are identical to the Ubertis, so no issues there. As has been stated by others, the links aren't impressive and the change to the finger lever is an insane approach to shortening lever throw. The lack of slam down doesn't bother me all that much as it is easy to remedy. But, if a body wanted a good short-stroke job, I'd put in one of the better US aftermarket kits and fix/changeout the lever. Add the cost of a replacement carrier into the mix and whaddya have? I dunno, but even at $700 from Buds Guns makes this gun no bargain. Real nice wood though..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mulo Vaquero, SASS #55942 Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 This same setup is being put into other Uberti 73 short-stroked rifles, So if you are buying a 73' from one of the importers with a factory installed short-stroke, you are going to get these "Renegade" components. They do however have a standard brass carrier. Fixing the existing parts is not cost/time effective, (links, lifter, lever, carrier, etc) when you can get these parts already correct. At least the Renegades price is considerably cheaper?, these others are not. Real nice wood though....(good one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketchum Quick, SASS #72923 Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 ....and the change to the finger lever is an insane approach to shortening lever throw. Why??? I know of a gun tuner who, as I undersand it, does it this way and he has been very succesfull using this method???? KQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCKY (FROM NZ) Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Can one of you knowledgeable folk explain what this slam down business is? I realize its referring to the carrier dropping down when the bolt is closed and finger lever closed, but what I'd like to know is how you alter it? My Pioneer super short kit works ok, but I have noticed the aluminum carrier tends to be a little lazy in its downward movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 I pretty much finished the tune-up of the Renegade yesterday. The lower tang group and bolt group are identical to the Ubertis, so no issues there. As has been stated by others, the links aren't impressive and the change to the finger lever is an insane approach to shortening lever throw. The lack of slam down doesn't bother me all that much as it is easy to remedy. But, if a body wanted a good short-stroke job, I'd put in one of the better US aftermarket kits and fix/changeout the lever. Add the cost of a replacement carrier into the mix and whaddya have? I dunno, but even at $700 from Buds Guns makes this gun no bargain. Real nice wood though..... Ok, Super Short Pioneer $160 Lever $60 Stock Carrier $70 action job $200 = $490 plus Renegade $700.00 = $1190 a new uberti completely stock will cost almost you that much maybe more so why not a good deal and oh yea the renegade wood smokes the Uberti red stain wood hands down. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 I'll have to disagree on them not being a good buy, link pins feel out of Pioneers kits for years and I ran one that did it for 4 years with no ill effects. I wish I would have bought three more of the Renegades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Montana, SASS #23907 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I think these are a good way for those looking for a rifle to move into Wild Bunch fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Why??? I know of a gun tuner who, as I undersand it, does it this way and he has been very succesfull using this method???? KQ Yah. It works, but none of the aftermarket kits work with this method, so more gunsmithing is required to make the gun compatible. Plus, you pretty much booger up the case coloring on the lever if you start welding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Ok, Super Short Pioneer $160 Lever $60 Stock Carrier $70 action job $200 = $490 plus Renegade $700.00 = $1190 a new uberti completely stock will cost almost you that much maybe more so why not a good deal and oh yea the renegade wood smokes the Uberti red stain wood hands down. KK A $700 short-stroked rifle with $150 worth of tuning and parts is a great deal. A $1,100 short-stroked rifle with changed out Beretta parts for Uberti parts and an aftermarket link kit is a good deal. But expectations are set that you've got a gun ready to rock 'n roll at $700 .... and that ain't the case. I've spent a lot of time over the last couple of days explaining that to folks who want to buy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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