Which is the cleanest shooting Black Powder?

[Wagon Box Willy]

Howdy Pards,

 

I just came back from the local sports shop with a couple of pounds of GOEX 3f for which I paid $22.50/lb. I figure that if I'm going to pay that much for GOEX I may be able to justify a 5lb purchase from Maine Powder House of Schuetzen or Swiss but I honestly don't know which I would get.

 

Schuetzen is $15/pound there so with Hazmat et al it will work out to about the same as what I'm paying for GOEX now.

 

So I guess my question is, Schuetzen and or Swiss noticeably cleaner shooting than GOEX and worth the price difference? I'm just using this for plinking and CAS so the accuracy of any of them wouldl be good enough for me.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Cleaner is sure a relative term in the BP world. But, any of the alder-charcoal black powders have a well deserved reputation for cleaning up easier and leaving less fouling. That would include Schuetzen, Swiss, Graf's house label (reported to be private-labeled Schuetzen). Swiss carries a top-end price, and it's precision is not required for CAS or plinking.

 

Any of the BP powders are NOT hard to clean once you get your technique down. I clean BP guns faster than smokeless ones. Just need to clean them a little more often.

 

But the real key in shooting BP so you don't have to worry about fouling up a gun in a six-stage day, is good BP lube and lots of it with a soft slug that fits the bore.

 

Good luck, GJ

[royal barnes sass #5792]

I have not tried Schuetzen. Swiss is a little cleaner than Goex but not enough for the difference in cost.

[August West, SASS #45079]

I have shot quite a bit of Shutzen and Goex over the past four years (38-40, .38 Special). I do feel there is a difference in the two.

 

Let me put it this way. If I walked into a store that carried both brands, and they were available at the same price, I would purchase the Shutzen without hesitation.

 

(this is NOT in reaction to Hodgdon's deleting Cartridge from the Goex offerings, those crumbs)

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Howdy Willy, Schuetzen is all I shoot, much cleaner than Goex. If you shoot much BP at all 5lbs ain't gonna last long. Get another pard(s) to go in with you on an order, 25lbs+ is free shipping and hazmat, well worth it. Good Luck

 

Jefro

[Wagon Box Willy]

Thanks folks,

 

The reason for the question was not related to cleanup but to fouling while shooting. If I can get Schuetzen for about the same price and it lets me shoot longer before I need to take action then that's what I would want.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

A number of years ago there was a regular contributor to this board who does not frequent it much anymore. This was about the time that the Big Lube bullets first came out. His contention was that the Big Lube bullets were totally unnecessary if one used a clean enough burning powder. After all, some of the classic Lyman designed bullets today are identical to the bullets in use 100 years ago. This shooter's contention, and he was a seasoned Black Powder shooter and he knew what he was talking about, was that with a relatively clean burning Black Powder, the relatively skimpy lube grooves of the old bullets were adequate to keep the fouling soft in any rifle barrel for its entire length and accuracy would not suffer after many shots. And he shot enough targets to prove it.

 

This shooter's contention was that the only modern powder that burned clean enough to use with the old style bullets was Swiss. Many of us, myself included, simply did not want to spend the money on Swiss in order to shoot Black Powder with conventional bullets. So the entire line of Big Lube bullets came into being. The huge lube groove of the Big Lube bullets carries enough Black Powder compatible bullet lube to keep the lube in any rifle soft with the dirtiest burning powder.

 

Goex was a prime example of a particularly dirty burning powder.

 

As has been stated, Schuetzen uses the same Buckthorn Alder charcoal as does Swiss. And the powder Graf sells under their own brand name is the same powder as Schuetzen, made in Germany by Wano, as is Schuetzen. If you can find Wano powder, it is also very clean burning stuff too.

 

So if you are going to be using Big Lube bullets anyway, it does not matter too much what powder you choose. If you want to go with more conventional bullets of the old designs, you should look for a high grade rifle powder like Swiss. But it does cost more.

 

My own personal experience is that it requires less cleaning patches to clean my rifles after shooting Schuetzen FFg than it did with Goex FFg. That translates directly to less fouling in the bore for the bullet lube to have to keep soft. So for the last three or four years I have stopped using Goex and use nothing but Schuetzen. Not completely necessary, since I shoot Big Lube bullets anyway, and even in my Goex days I could shoot an entire match without any attention to my guns, as long as I was using Big Lube bullets. This was not true in my Pan Lubing days with hard cast bullets with skimpy lube grooves. In those days, I had to swab out my rifle barrels once or twice during a match to keep my rifle accuracy from dropping off.

 

But since Goex and Schuetzen cost just about exactly the same, which is much less than Swiss, I will continue to use Schuetzen as long as I am able to obtain it.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Howdy

 

A number of years ago there was a regular contributor to this board who does not frequent it much anymore. This was about the time that the Big Lube bullets first came out. His contention was that the Big Lube bullets were totally unnecessary if one used a clean enough burning powder. After all, some of the classic Lyman designed bullets today are identical to the bullets in use 100 years ago. This shooter's contention, and he was a seasoned Black Powder shooter and he knew what he was talking about, was that with a relatively clean burning Black Powder, the relatively skimpy lube grooves of the old bullets were adequate to keep the fouling soft in any rifle barrel for its entire length and accuracy would not suffer after many shots. And he shot enough targets to prove it.

 

This shooter's contention was that the only modern powder that burned clean enough to use with the old style bullets was Swiss. Many of us, myself included, simply did not want to spend the money on Swiss in order to shoot Black Powder with conventional bullets. So the entire line of Big Lube bullets came into being. The huge lube groove of the Big Lube bullets carries enough Black Powder compatible bullet lube to keep the lube in any rifle soft with the dirtiest burning powder.

 

Goex was a prime example of a particularly dirty burning powder.

 

As has been stated, Schuetzen uses the same Buckthorn Alder charcoal as does Swiss. And the powder Graf sells under their own brand name is the same powder as Schuetzen, made in Germany by Wano, as is Schuetzen. If you can find Wano powder, it is also very clean burning stuff too.

 

So if you are going to be using Big Lube bullets anyway, it does not matter too much what powder you choose. If you want to go with more conventional bullets of the old designs, you should look for a high grade rifle powder like Swiss. But it does cost more.

 

My own personal experience is that it requires less cleaning patches to clean my rifles after shooting Schuetzen FFg than it did with Goex FFg. That translates directly to less fouling in the bore for the bullet lube to have to keep soft. So for the last three or four years I have stopped using Goex and use nothing but Schuetzen. Not completely necessary, since I shoot Big Lube bullets anyway, and even in my Goex days I could shoot an entire match without any attention to my guns, as long as I was using Big Lube bullets. This was not true in my Pan Lubing days with hard cast bullets with skimpy lube grooves. In those days, I had to swab out my rifle barrels once or twice during a match to keep my rifle accuracy from dropping off.

 

But since Goex and Schuetzen cost just about exactly the same, which is much less than Swiss, I will continue to use Schuetzen as long as I am able to obtain it.

Driftwood,

 

I do use Big Lube JP 200/210's and GOEX FFFg and lube my cylinder pin with the Mobile One Synthetic grease and at last weeks shoot in Candia I found my guns getting tight after the third stage. So I'm considering trying Schuetzen to see if I can get any more stages out of the guns before I have to clean and relube.

 

Thanks

-Willy

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy Willy

 

That JP bullet was designed by a couple of guys named Johnson and Peterson. What type of guns? Although I know some shooters like using that Mobil One stuff, I have found that my pistols keep rolling best with a little bit of pure Ballistol on the cylinder center pin. Not too much, or the transverse latch may not keep a grip on the pin and it may want to jump forward.

 

But I use that same bullet in my Colts, Rugers, and clones loaded into Schofield cases and I can shoot my pistols all day with no attention to them at all. However, my 1858 Remmies are a different situation.

[Wagon Box Willy]

The guns are 1875 Remmies so the cylinder bushing is a bit short as compared to the Colts. I'm going to try some Bore Butter next time, and I'll try the Ballistol too.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy Again

 

Try the Bore Butter if you want, but if you are having binding problems, you want something that is going to flow. Bore butter tends to be kind of stiff, Ballistol is a nice, flowing lubricant.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Shutzen for main match pistol and rifle, the cheapest charcoal ya can get yer hands on fer the shotgun. Save the Swiss fer the long range rifle. I find Swiss is also much more energetic....

[Wagon Box Willy]

Howdy Again

 

Try the Bore Butter if you want, but if you are having binding problems, you want something that is going to flow. Bore butter tends to be kind of stiff, Ballistol is a nice, flowing lubricant.

I just ordered off Ebay one of those little plastic squeeze bottles with the stainless steel needle applicator so I could fill it with Ballistol

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Howdy Willy, ferget about bore butter, it doesn't do much for the base pin. Give Gun Butter a try, great for any moving parts, BP or Smokeless. Good Luck

http://www.gunbutter.com/

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[John Boy]

I'm just using this for plinking and CAS so the accuracy of any of them would be good enough for me.

Willy, this being your shooting environment - buy the new 2010 lot of KIK FFg. Accuracy is a function primarily of the bullet and the skills of the shooter. So let's just talk about cost and powder quality. Here are your prices from Powder Inc:

5 lb. lot: $20.26 per lb.

10 lb. lot: $15.64 per lb.

25 or 50 lb. lot: $12.50 per lb.

(Buy a 25# case lot and split it with someone)

 

Related to quality:

* All KIK powders are made with charcoal from Alder Buckthorn

* The 2010 lots have been reformulated to generate higher velocities

I tested all 3 the other day with BPCR reloads: 65*F - Humidity: 39% - Pressure: 30.04" Steady.

Note that the Humidity was only 39%. Others can explain the relevance of humidity on the hygroscopic impact on the foul

* The foul was semi moist, bordering on true sporting powder

* The foul of KIK FFg was less than Fg and 1.15Fg

Fg

3.4gr/72gr of original charge = 4.72%

Charcoal = 'fine dust' and more than 1.5Fg or FFg

1.5Fg

3.5gr/70gr of original charge = 5.0%

Charcoal = 'fine dust' and less than FFg but more than Fg

FFg

2.4gr/68gr of original charge = 2.4%

Charcoal = 'fine dust' and least amount of the 3 grades

 

* Avg velocities and SD's were:

72gr Fg = 1142.2 ... SD 7.6

70gr (1.5Fg) = 1155.6 ... SD 18.47

68gr FFg 1164.2 ... SD 8.50

 

Other BPCR shooters have been testing the new 2010 lot of KIK too. They are as impressed with the powder as I am. Could be a replacement for Swiss and definitely a replacement for Goex ... unless the new Goex to be introduced in Jan 2012 is the greatest thing since sliced bread!

[Iron Pony]

John Boy if Kik has gone to Alder it may be something to consider. IIRC it used to be as dirty as dragon was but a new formulation at a lower cost may be reason to try it.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Howdy Again

 

Try the Bore Butter if you want, but if you are having binding problems, you want something that is going to flow. Bore butter tends to be kind of stiff, Ballistol is a nice, flowing lubricant.

Before I start I want to say that these results are only applicable to my set of Uberti 1875 and is just to be used as a data point, not an absolute. I was shooting 24gr of GOEX and JP200 Big lube boolits from Springfield Slim and Dash Caliber.

 

So I ran a test with Mobil One grease and Ballistol. The way I applied the Mobil One was to use a cotton swab and spread the grease on the inside of the cylinder pin bore in the cylinder, and then all over the pin. I added some to the face of the cylinder as well. I had never applied the grease to the inside of the pin bore before today, just greased the pin.

 

On the second gun I basically did the same thing with Ballistol including wetting the cylinder face with it.

 

 

My test was simple, shoot 5 rounds and reload and take note of the way the gun was operating. so 5, 10, 15 rounds with no problems. When I reloaded the Ballistol gun after round 15 I noted that the cylinder wasn't as free as the Mobil One. After the 20th round I stopped the test on the Ballistol gun as it was clear that it needed a cleaning. 25, 30 and 35 went off fine with the Mobil One gun though I could feel the cylinder tightening up when I was reloading. At that point I stopped the test as I would need to clean that gun as well.

 

This was a big improvement for the Mobil One gun as it needed to be cleaned with Moose Milk after 15 rounds when I was shooting up in Candia. I believe that working the grease into the cylinder pin bore was the big difference.

 

Next I will need to shoot the Ballistol gun with the Mobil One to make sure I get the same results and it is not gun specific.

 

YMMV

-Willy

[John Boy]

Willy, what was the humidity when you conducted this test?

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy Willy

 

A lot of us have already been through what you are doing. There should be no need to put any grease or oil on the face of the cylinder. As long as you are using those excellently designed J/P 45-200 bullets with plenty of soft BP compatible lube, that should take care of any binding that may be caused by fouling building up on the cylinder face.

 

The other key area is the cylinder pin. I have had excellent results for years now with my Colts, clones, and Rugers applying a little bit of Ballistol to the cylinder base pin, and if there is a removable bushing applying a little bit to it too. If no removable bushing, like with Rugers, just some Ballistol on the pin. This method always allows me to shoot an entire match, six stages, eight stages, or even a two day match, with no further attention to the guns.

 

I did borrow Blackerby's Remmy '75 one time and shot a match with it. Six stages and I had no issues. But if I remember correctly, the 1875 Remmington does not have as tall a bushing as the other guns I just mentioned. A shorter bushing means the barrel/cylinder gap is more in line with the opening where the pin emerges, so more fouling could possibly be blown into the opening, causing binding after less shots than with a gun with a taller bushing.

 

But it sounds like a pretty reasonable experiment that you are conducting.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Willy, what was the humidity when you conducted this test?

53% when I was testing.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Howdy Willy

...

I did borrow Blackerby's Remmy '75 one time and shot a match with it. Six stages and I had no issues. But if I remember correctly, the 1875 Remmington does not have as tall a bushing as the other guns I just mentioned. A shorter bushing means the barrel/cylinder gap is more in line with the opening where the pin emerges, so more fouling could possibly be blown into the opening, causing binding after less shots than with a gun with a taller bushing.

 

But it sounds like a pretty reasonable experiment that you are conducting.

Howdy DJ,

 

Yea, the bushing is not as tall nor the cylinder pin as large.

 

Uberti 1875 cylinder bushing

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

For some reason, that link is timing out before I see anything.

[Wagon Box Willy]

working now, GoDaddy was down for a bit I guess

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Yeah, that's a pretty tiny bushing. That is going to be the cause of your guns binding up too soon.

[Fairshake]

It appears that your cylinder bushing is fixed and not removable. I have used Mobil One for over 3 years now and have shot in matches with 6 stages in one day with no problems. Your cylinder gap also plays a part in how your revolver works. Long Hunter has set up two sets of USFA's for me, both sets were set at .07 gap. The base pins are also highly polished.When ready to assemble I put the grease on the bushings and pins.Ballistol is a wonderful product and I use it mixed with water to clean my guns every time they are fired. After that I add EEZOX to protect them from rust. It does a better job than the Ballistol. Some products work well for one thing and not as well for others. For my use the Mobil one works better when it comes to the base pin and bushing and for the cleaning and other chores the Ballistol is the better choice. If you are some where that only Ballistol is available then I would choose it. It does a great lubing job for smokeless guns. If you want to see the facts about the EEZOX, you may do a search on the Open Range or Cast Boolits forums. The test was conducted by John Boy and will leave no doubt about what product to use to protect your valuables with.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Long Hunter has set up two sets of USFA's for me, both sets were set at .07 gap.

 

Howdy

 

.070 for a barrel/cylinder gap? That's more than 1/16"! Maybe you made a mistake with your decimal point?

 

For what it's worth, I have usually found that barrel/cylinder gap is the least likely culprit in revolvers binding up when shooting Black Powder. All my Colts, clones, and Rugers have gaps anywhere from .005-.008. They are all just as they came from the factory, and they all shoot well with Black Powder. My old Blackhawk got through six stages a few years ago and its gap was only .003. I was amazed, but it worked fine.

 

Bottom line, as far as I am concerned, is use as much BP compatible lube as possible on your bullets. The only revolvers I have that do not perform well with Black Powder are my 1858 Remmies, which have no cylinder bushing at all. Nothing to divert fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap away from the cylinder pin. With that small bushing that Willie posted, I suspect that is his main problem, a bushing that is not tall enough to deflect fouling away from the b/c/ gap. Try every thing you can, but you may have to settle for wiping down your cylinders a couple of times during a match. Even with a Big Lube bullet and gobs of SPG, I have to wipe down the cylinder faces of my Remmies after each stage to keep them running smoothly.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Howdy Driftwood,

 

Just a followup to this discussion regarding BP and my 1875's. After shooting last weekend I noticed that I was getting a lot of blow back which was reducing the "head space" (not sure if that's the correct term for the space between the cylinder and the frame around the firing pin) which was causing the rim of the shell to bind and impede the cocking and rotation of the cylinder. So I'm first going to try a tighter crimp and then if that doesn't work go up to a .454 boolit.

 

Willy