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choke modification on a real 1897 Winchester pump?


Sierra Steve

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Just found and bought a very good condition Winchester 97 12 ga. I plan to use it for Wild Bunch events and perhaps for cowboy also. As most 1897s do, this shotgun has a full choke. But for these Wild Bunch and cowboy events, seems that a more open pattern works just as well and might help me improve my hits (especially when they throw up a clay pigeon from a knock down target). So, is it feasible to open out that full choke on this old real deal '97? If so, what about installing a "screw in" type choke system that will let me switch back to full choke if I want? If either of these are feasible, would doing either modification really hurt the value of the shotgun? Note this is not a trench gun, but a long barreled gun. And I guess I'd like views on whether, even if its feasible, this is something I shouldn't do to an honorable one hundred and six year old Winchester.

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They made a million of them so 'honorable' is in the eye of the beholder and a few of the Luddites on the Wire.

 

Chokes will set you back $125 for thin-wall screw-ins (at least that's what I get for them).

 

Shoot it a while. Pattern density between full and I/C at CAS distances ain't all that great.

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If you reload, you can make spreader loads. This is usually done by placing a cardboard card (.7" diameter) in the middle of the shot by loading half of the shot, placing the card and loading the remainder of the shot. Most loaders reduce the shot by 1/8 ounce to make up for the added thickness of the card. Thsi works to disrupt the shot column as it exits the barrel. There are many references to this on the web.

 

I could not make myself cut or alter my '97 that was made in 1906 and in great shape. I found a 20" barrel marked 12/97 that seems to fit both for $100. I wish that I could find a complete lower assembly so that changing barrels was easier.

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I think if nobody told ya what the choke was and ya just shot it, you'd be plenty happy. I run a SXS that is Full and Modified, and don't notice any difference from the old one that was IC and Modified. Our game is NOT that challenging for the shotgun IF ya know where yer gun actually hits, and take the time to mount it properly and use the bead!

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Buy todays standard that is a super full choke you have.

Bought a coke hone from Brownell's and opened mine up to the large side of what is todays full choke dia.

Mine is still "full"(barely)just not as "full" is all. Sure helped on the trap range ;)

Cheers,

LG

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I had my 1937 takedown cut back to 22" and screw chokes installed. Had a full race job done also. This gun was someones "safe queen". It looked showroom new and the wood was perfect. Now it is a working gun fit for competition. Beauty certainly is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Good luck, Castalia

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Count me as one of the Luddites who sez shoot it as is.

 

I believe you'll find the longer sight radius is a plus, and the tighter pattern will sweep away knockdowns with ease even with a light load. If anything, just put a really big bead on it and aim, not just point.

 

They might have made a million-and-a-half of them, but for every one that gets chopped the value of those stock ones just goes up. The one I bought 2 years ago for $280 ... I've seen similar ones at the shows going for $700. Who knows - you might need to sell it someday to buy a tank of gas.

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Manatee has good advice.

 

I have observed that on other forums, such as Smith & Wesson, posters scream about destroying the value of any S&W that the owner wants to refinish or customize.

 

As Manatee pointed out '97's only have appealed to CAS (well, there was this article in Shotgun Guns about someone spending $1,000 to customize one but I digress) so spending another $125 wil not add value to your gun.

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There isn't any real "Collector" value to a '97. Just a few years back, good '97s went for $75 - $100 bucks everywhere. Now the sky is the limit. Still no collectors. CAS drove the price up. Folks that have em to sell realize we in the Cowboy game will pay WAY too much for what the really are. So ............

 

Cut that hummer down to 18 1/4 inches and have screw in chokes installed. Short shotguns are a BALL!!

 

Coffinmaker

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I plan to use it for Wild Bunch events and perhaps for cowboy also.

 

If you plan to use it for Wild Bunch and SASS, cut it, and put a big ole' bead on the front. Much easier to handle through doors and windows. I like mine at 22", but most folks like 20". Good Luck.

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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At the distances we shoot at, the difference between full and cylinder wuold be something like 4" for full and 5" for cyl (not actual data, just my WAG). Besides, at many clubs the "golden BB" rule obtains; the shotgun targets are basically "gimmes".

Plus, there's the age and wear on your gun. It may cost enough to get your '97 ready for SASS as you would spend for one of the new Chinese :angry: '97s.

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A gunsmith I used to visit with years ago told me that the old 97’s and 12’s had very long chokes in them. So even if you cut them 4-5” they may still have more choke than you want. He said he used to cut them only if the customer really wanted them shorter, if they needed a wider pattern he would hone them out to whatever they wanted. As far as collector guns go I would have to think the gun would be near 100% to make it a real “collector” gun.

I personally think the 97 is the greatest. I have 5 right now and only 1 is what I would call a collectable and only because I believe I shot the first round out of this 1956 beauty.

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Howdy

 

Chief Luddite checking in.

 

It is of course your gun, so do as you please with it. Personally, I will not cut down the barrel on any old shotgun. As Captain Cahill said, they ain't making them any more. For every one that gets chopped, one less in existence.

 

As far as a 'super full choke' is concerned, I have one '97 and two Model 12s. They all have 30" full choke barrels. I just ran my choke gauge into all of them, and they are all slightly less than full choke. In other words, the gauge slides down past the 'full choke' mark and is almost halfway to the 'modified' mark. Probably closer to improved modified by today's standards. The full choke certainly does not stop me from hitting the occasional 25 straight with my old Model 12 field gun, which is my favorite Trap gun. I out shot another guy with his Krieghoff the other night.

 

Even Manatee says you should shoot it for a while before you think about modifying it. I used to use an old Stevens for my main match shotgun that had two full choked 30" barrels. As AJ said, knocking down typical CAS targets is more a matter of aiming, actually using the bead, and putting the shot where it counts, not depending on an open choke.

 

I will admit that for the pop ups I used to make up spreader loads for the old Stevens. You can make spreaders by making a little 'X' shaped cross out of heavy cardboard and surrounding it with shot. I also have some commerically made spreader load top wads. They are a little plastic disk with a cone shaped protrusion that you shove down into the top of the shot. The shot hits the cone and spreads out a little bit more than usual.

 

I have observed that on other forums, such as Smith & Wesson, posters scream about destroying the value of any S&W that the owner wants to refinish or customize.

 

Well, I dunno about screaming, but yes, any old gun that has been refinished will lose value. If it is an old junker, there probably is not much value to lose in the first place. If it is a historic piece or in any way collectable, yes it will lose value when you refinish it. I have bought lots of nice old Smiths cheap because they have been refinished. Winchesters too.

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Another Luddite here...

 

Please, don't cut it.

 

I have 2 97's. One with a 20" no choke, and one with a 28" full choke. I searched far and wide for the uncute barrel, and when I finally found it, I pounced. If you REALLY want a short barrel one, you can probably sell the long barrel to someone who wants it for the cost of one that is already shortened. Maybe even for more.

 

From a practical standpoint, the first time I used my long barrel 97 at a cowboy shoot, I fell in love with it. I found that, for me, it seemed to work better than the short barrel. Don't know why, it just did.

 

So, yeah, give it a whirl. You might just like it as is.

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Wow, thanks for all the discussion on this. I think the best thing, for me at least, is to leave it as is and shoot it. I won't cut the barrel, that's for sure. I don't (so far) re-load shotgun shells, so I'll keep in mind the ideas for spreading the shot if I ever get into shotgun reloading. I might consider honing the choke, but not until I've shot it for time. If there were only knock down targets, I wouldn't be concerned about choke size, but it's those pop ups and those fast running-away ground rollers that launch when the knockdown goes down that make me think a wider pattern would give me more hits. And, of course, the Wild Bunch shoots seem to need a pump to be competitive. Again, thanks very much for the informative and useful feed back.

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I no longer have any of my really cool Gunsmith tooling from back in the day when I use to do FFL licensed Gunsmith type work for my department of around 200. I did do a lot of work on later makes of shotgun; shortening barrels, choke work, etc. For you to not alter the exterior at all, but to alter the choke, take a look at page 6 of the Clymers catalog http://www.clymertool.com/catalogue/ClymerCatalogueVol11.pdf I had the 12 and 20 ga version of these bore reamers in a pull through design (they no longer offer that type) they now have a push through design but the idea is still the same. It's how gunsmiths can back bore a barrel. If you mike the barrel and only go a thousandth or two over, you can 1 clean the bore up and 2 run it right into the choke turning the constriction into whatever you would like it to be. Down to or including cylinder bore if that is your preference. You don't have to cut the barrel/shorten the gun or anything like it. You would have to be careful towards the muzzle with the barrel wall thickness to make sure you're not thinning things out too much. Some makers swage barrels to help accomplish choking the gun where the outside of the barrel actually tapers inward as well as the I.D. Just something to be aware of. Of course if you want to go all out, Clymers offers all you would need to get into the screw in choke business, but that is a tedious process at best. Boring a shotgun barrel with essentially a tapered bit is pretty straightforward. Smithy.

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