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Which 1897 to buy?


Aunt Jen

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Now, I may have spent too much money, lately :unsure: , but I have been noticing that the '97s can save some time. I have a good SxS Stoeger that is just great. But I am wondering

 

1. how much a '97 would shorten my time, and

 

2. if so, what kind is reasonable to buy? Not the rolls royce of the bunch, but there's probably a point at which you can get a pretty good one, for a reasonable price, and above that you start paying a lot more for refinements I'd never be able to personally notice.

 

Ideas?

 

Thank you

 

Aunt Jen

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Once in a while someone out there with a real winchester will let them go in the 300-400 range

That seems to be the same price range as IAC clones.

 

The conventional wisdom seems to be have 3 on to shoot, a back up and the third in the shop and rotate.

 

I have yet to shoot the winchester I got a smoking deal on for 300 bucks

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Once in a while someone out there with a real winchester will let them go in the 300-400 range

That seems to be the same price range as IAC clones.

 

The conventional wisdom seems to be have 3 on to shoot, a back up and the third in the shop and rotate.

 

I have yet to shoot the winchester I got a smoking deal on for 300 bucks

You mean they aren't durable? They need service rather often?

 

Aunt Jen

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Aunt Jen, I had an 1897 (IAC Copy) that I quickly sold, unfired. Not because of any inherent problems to speak of, but it was my fourth shotgun that I had bought just for Wild Bunch and following a recent move I found out I was not going to be shooting ANY Wild Bunch to speak of at all so it was an extra arm altogether. What I am doing for speed (if you can call it that) is I do have an 1887 clone and have made contact with Lassiter who has arranged with me to do a drop two conversion and tune up work on the gun. Or at least my name is in the pot. I'm scheduled to send him my gun middle of next month for the work. With that conversion it should speed me up quite a bit over what my times of late have usually been and with the gun itself I will maintain the positive ejection that will keep me going at a pretty good clip. When I was looking to buy a 97 I saw prices better than the 7's for a smithed 97 so that gold example may be on the excessive side of things (more in the 4's and 5's). But don't quote me as I certainly am no expert in 97's. Smithy.

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Jen,

A 97 will usually be faster than a SxS on any stage that has more than 2 shotgun targets. This has to do with how fast a 97 can be reloaded vs. the SxS. The 97 mechanically ejects each shell as the slide is pumped while the SxS has to be manually unloaded. That being said, the 97 is prone to more types of failures than a SxS. There are more things that can go wrong on the 97. Even a properly tuned and maintained 97 will break more often than a SxS. This has to do with the design. There are more moving parts on the 97 than the SxS and therefore more things that can go wrong. Remember, we are doing things to these 97s that John Moses Browning never envisioned them doing...and we do them every weekend. I bet the average cowboy 97 is shot more in one weekend match than an original would have in the users lifetime 100 years ago.

 

So, it comes down to this. Yes, the 97 is faster on a stage than a SxS (in general). But, it will also require more maintenance than a SxS from match to match. Also, it will fail more often than a SxS. The choice is up to the shooter. Faster times with higher risk of failures on the line vs. slower times and more reliability.

 

That all being said, dedicated practice with the SxS can produce incredibly fast times. But you have to practice with it.

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Howdy Jen.

 

I'll 'ditto' what IROT sez.

 

I use a 97. and I use to use a SxS.

 

Any reasonable 'speed', and effeciency you acquire with these Shotguns is gona have to come from pratice.

 

Unless you have the money to burn and have incredible speed, my guess is that you do not need a $700+ shotgun.

 

All 4 of my IAC's cost $300 - $350 each.....new in box. Love em.

And, I think I'm gona buy myself another one for $350 (NEW, in box) today at the ShootOut.

 

I can say nothing bad about those SxS. They are beautiful guns. But its just a preference thing for me and I go with the 97.

 

Oh yea, the reason I have a few of them is because I have 2 that are my match guns and 2 I use for practice sessions.

 

I actually have a 5th one that has been decommissioned (no firing pin) that I use for dry fire practice in the house.

 

Best regards

 

..........Widder

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Aunt Jen, the 93/97 you are referring to is not SASS legal at state and up matches, most will let you use it in local matches, depends on the match director

 

Alot of the top shooters that used to use the 97 have switched to the SxS, less things that can happened as been noted up above, there are alot of fast shooters with a SxS, but they practice alot with them, your choice what you want, practice, practice, practice

 

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

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Ok. Thanks.

 

I think I'll stay with my Stoeger SxS. It's very reliable. I might get it slicked at some time, but it may be a lot simpler for me to just keep it.

 

Thank you all,

 

Aunt Jen

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To answer your "which one to buy" question.

1. Original 97 in good working order, no action work until you get up to speed on it and decide if you like shooting a pump. These can be found for $350.00 - $450.00

2. IAC, stock out of box without action work for the same reason stated in #1 above. These are running about $375-$435

3. Cimarron, no action work unless it doesn't function correctly out of the box, as some don't. The extra features these guns come with are worth the little extra they cost. (hard chromed chamber and barrel, choke tube, Parts like carrier and bolt are fit and serial number stamped to the receiver, #4 brass bead sight, nice real walnut. They can be found for around the $450-$525 range.

My personal preference is don't buy any of the other replicas being imported.

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I shoot a Stoeger SxS, an original '97 and an original '87.

The '97:

- is faster for men who can grab three or more rounds from the belt on stages with more than four targets (When I see stages with six targets, I suspect that the stage was designed and set up by '97 shooters).

- is faster for women who load right handed (I am not sure why women do this faster than men, but I have observed it)

- is faster for picking up a pissed target

- is easier to learn

- can be probelmatic because of the greater number of parts and intricacy of parts when compared to a SxS

If I buying another '97, I would find a Black Diamond version made by Winchester between the wars. These were made for competition shooters and collectors and tend to have better wood and fit. Most of the ones that I ahve seen for sale were not priced to match their special qualities.

I think that 90% of effective shotgunning is mounting, loading, unloading, loading, unloading; it is not the actual shooting. To me, this means that practice is more important than tuning. I would consider tuning a shotgun only to aid reliability.

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3. Cimarron, no action work unless it doesn't function correctly out of the box, as some don't. The extra features these guns come with are worth the little extra they cost. (hard chromed chamber and barrel, choke tube, Parts like carrier and bolt are fit and serial number stamped to the receiver, #4 brass bead sight, nice real walnut. They can be found for around the $450-$525 range.

My personal preference is don't buy any of the other replicas being imported.

I just bought a new cimarron 97 from a local dealer for $400. I felt like it was a good deal at the time, and still feel that way.

I intend to shoot wild bunch only with it.

I'll stick with the SxS for cowboy matches (just a personal preference).

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I think I've kind of decided not to get a '97 because of their reliability problems. I have too many other things to do to get so involved in getting them right and keeping them that way.

 

I guess I'll keep my SxS and just use it. It seems very reliable, if slower.

 

......... But on the other hand...!

 

Aunt Jen

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Jen, don't let the reliablity issues scare you away. If you want one, get it. I'd bet a dime to a donut that the '97's that break are '97's that are slam fired and used every week-end of the month, and practice sessions daily. The '97 was a favorite shotgun of market hunters back in the day, and they got a LOT of hard use in the salt marshes of the east coast.

 

Any gun can break.

 

All that said, I've never used a '97 in a match. I had one for a bit, but it just didn't seem to fit in the Frontiersman category, so I traded it.

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Aunt Jen, the 93/97 you are referring to is not SASS legal at state and up matches, most will let you use it in local matches, depends on the match director

 

Alot of the top shooters that used to use the 97 have switched to the SxS, less things that can happened as been noted up above, there are alot of fast shooters with a SxS, but they practice alot with them, your choice what you want, practice, practice, practice

 

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

 

just out of curiosity, why is this gun not sass legal?

 

 

jersey,

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just out of curiosity, why is this gun not sass legal?

 

 

jersey,

 

It's a long story, sort of related to the size of the ejection port but there seems to be politics involved. Cap's version of the story is on his website in the "articles" section.

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Aunt Jen. I recommend purchasing a 97 and seeing if you like it. The worst that can happen is you find that you don't like or it doesn't suit you, then you can sell it and possibly lose some denero, best case is you like it and improve your CAS experience or your times.

 

On the parallel I would rather try riding a skateboard and see if I was apt or enjoyed it before I dismissed it.

 

Regards Brimstone ( who is procrastinating his stats project by reading the wire, having a cold one , and wishing he was shootin.) Jerome.

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I think I've kind of decided not to get a '97 because of their reliability problems. I have too many other things to do to get so involved in getting them right and keeping them that way.

 

I guess I'll keep my SxS and just use it. It seems very reliable, if slower.

 

......... But on the other hand...!

 

Aunt Jen

If you ever get bitten by the wild bunch bug you will need one short of that there is no compelling reason for one.

As far as times go really depends on who you want to compete against. If you only strive to improve your times, slicking up the SxS chambers so the gun will shuck the shels with a little snap to the rear will go a long way.

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Ok. Thanks.

 

I think I'll stay with my Stoeger SxS. It's very reliable. I might get it slicked at some time, but it may be a lot simpler for me to just keep it.

 

Thank you all,

 

Aunt Jen

_______________________

Good Choice IMO, and don't let em BS you, there is no one who can shoot the first two out of a 97 as fast as the first two out of a SXS. Also, if you have ever seen T-Bone shoot his TTN, you won't want a 97! JMO.

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Any gun can break.

 

 

________________

Yea a SXS can break, how many come apart and injure participants? Get me a ratio.....

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If you ever get bitten by the wild bunch bug you will need one short of that there is no compelling reason for one.

As far as times go really depends on who you want to compete against. If you only strive to improve your times, slicking up the SxS chambers so the gun will shuck the shels with a little snap to the rear will go a long way

A good point was made here! It was the reason that I bought my 97 and that was for Wild Bunch. There is no way around it. To shoot it you have to have one, period. If you ever had a notion of trying WB you need a 97 and in the interim you could run it through its pases to see if your times could be shortened? Wouldn't hurt and if all else fails and you decide you absolutely will NEVER shoot WB and also just hate the 97 you can always sell it to get your money back. What do you think? Smithy.

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It's a long story, sort of related to the size of the ejection port but there seems to be politics involved. Cap's version of the story is on his website in the "articles" section.

thanks ill have to check that out once i get home from my first shoot of the season!

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I'll have to give it some more thought.

 

I haven't been into the WB shoots. I like the 1911 fine, but it has no appeal. I prefer the time-warp aspect of getting a bit of the feel of what someone back on the prairie might have felt, by holding something in my hands like they might have held, by wearing something like they might have worn, by experiencing something, in a small way, like they might have experienced.

 

I have a Glock, and I never even shoot it.

 

I'll keep the '97 in mind, though, and we'll see. It came around in 1897, and our SASS era goes up through 1899. But if I were willing to guess, my ancestors out on the prairie probably didn't have a '97.

 

Ha!

 

I used to know someone who was into the old square-riggers (ocean-going, square rigged ships of old), and I caught him using velcro on something, so I complained to him (humorously). I wasn't going to let that breach of purism slide. "They never had velcro!" I told him. He replied, "They'd have used it if they'd had it."

 

Likely, if my ancestors had had a '97 they'd have used it. But I bet they didn't have it. And for me, I think holding something that helps me go back to a time when I might have stood by the barn while someone forked hay, or when I might have carried a bucket of water into the house, or brushed a horse, brings me back a bit to a time that seems simpler.

 

Still, we grow, I say to my divided self on the issue. And if Grandpa had had a pump '97, he'd have liked it and been proud of it, much as he might a Corvette, if he'd had one of those, too.

 

So I'll not close the book on the '97, and keep it in mind. I'll watch some of you work with yours and see how it'd fit me. But for now, I'll keep my SxS. At least this week.

 

Aunt Jen

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I'll have to give it some more thought.

 

I haven't been into the WB shoots. I like the 1911 fine, but it has no appeal. I prefer the time-warp aspect of getting a bit of the feel of what someone back on the prairie might have felt, by holding something in my hands like they might have held, by wearing something like they might have worn, by experiencing something, in a small way, like they might have experienced.

 

I have a Glock, and I never even shoot it.

 

I'll keep the '97 in mind, though, and we'll see. It came around in 1897, and our SASS era goes up through 1899. But if I were willing to guess, my ancestors out on the prairie probably didn't have a '97.

 

Ha!

 

I used to know someone who was into the old square-riggers (ocean-going, square rigged ships of old), and I caught him using velcro on something, so I complained to him (humorously). I wasn't going to let that breach of purism slide. "They never had velcro!" I told him. He replied, "They'd have used it if they'd had it."

 

Likely, if my ancestors had had a '97 they'd have used it. But I bet they didn't have it. And for me, I think holding something that helps me go back to a time when I might have stood by the barn while someone forked hay, or when I might have carried a bucket of water into the house, or brushed a horse, brings me back a bit to a time that seems simpler.

 

Still, we grow, I say to my divided self on the issue. And if Grandpa had had a pump '97, he'd have liked it and been proud of it, much as he might a Corvette, if he'd had one of those, too.

 

So I'll not close the book on the '97, and keep it in mind. I'll watch some of you work with yours and see how it'd fit me. But for now, I'll keep my SxS. At least this week.

 

Aunt Jen

 

 

Jen, Sammy here.

 

What kind of Glock do you have and do you want to trade?

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