H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Well, yesterday, I aquired a Winchester 1886, in .45-70, for 1500 bucks. It was described as having a "cut barrell, and a cut magazine." The barrel is 22" long, and it clearly does have a magazine that was cut to half magazine length. But, I don't think the barrel was a rifle that has been cut back. For one thing, their is a slot at the end of the barrel where the magazine plug would fit. It's been filled in, but it was clearly there. And, as I look at the muzzle, if this barrel was longer and has been shortened, it was done by a very fantastic expert. In fact, as I was taking possession of it, I voiced my suspiscion to the clerk, who looked at it, and said, "I think you're right. This is factory carbine, and the only modification is the shortening of the magazine." Gun was made in 1898, and is in excellent mechanical condition. Finish is a nice even grey color. Anywhoo... I did find for short money a full length carbine magazine tube, and plan to "restore" to its original configuration. (But I will hold onto the original pieces of course) But what I am wondering is, is there anyway to learn if this really is a factory carbine, or a rifle that's been cut back? And, assuming it is a real carbine, did I really luck out on the price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Sounds like a great price, even if it is modified. This economy has shaken some real bargins as people have had to let go of some nice guns. Someone with a lathe (and not a mill) could have altered this barrel from the chamber end. Is the chamber marking (.45-70) on the top flat of the barrel near the receiver? Is the rear sight unusually close to the receiver? The Cody Museum will produce a letter with the original condition for $60. This will ultimately solve your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Is the chamber marking (.45-70) on the top flat of the barrel near the receiver? Is the rear sight unusually close to the receiver? The Cody Museum will produce a letter with the original condition for $60. This will ultimately solve your question. Chamber marking is there, and rear sight is pretty much in the same place as it seems to be on all my other Winchesters. Cody Museum... Google to the rescue! Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Is there a barrel band or a forend cap? Carbines have barrel bands holding the forearm on, as well as typically a shotgun style buttplate. Rifles will usually have a forend cap at the end of the wood as well as a crescent buttplate. Of course Winchester would make anything the customer ask for, bvut these are the usual configurations, much like the 66 and 73's that we shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Is there a barrel band or a forend cap? Carbines have barrel bands holding the forearm on, as well as typically a shotgun style buttplate. Rifles will usually have a forend cap at the end of the wood as well as a crescent buttplate. Of course Winchester would make anything the customer ask for, bvut these are the usual configurations, much like the 66 and 73's that we shoot. Forend cap with a cresent buttplate. Maybe it was cut afterall. But it was very well done. But, the fact that the magazine was once longer is still an enigma to me. I'm gonna get a letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Does this piece have a band surrounding the end of the forearm, or simply a cap that does not completely surround the barrel? Is there any evidence of a band that might have surrounded the original magazine tube just behind the front sight? If the answer to all of these is "no" then it was never a carbine per se. But Winchester did make short rifles to customer's requests. What is the actual length of the barrel measured by dropping a rod down the barrel until it touches the breech face. You say this is a "22-inch" barrel. If so, the actual measured length should be 21-7/8 inch. (M1886's were always 1/8" shorter than the nominal length.) A problem with this being a rifle with a full-length magazine is that there should be a dovetail cut into the underside of the barrel. If there is no dovetail cut, then the possibility exists that it was a cut-down barrel. HOWEVER...it might be that this was a half-magazine rifle, which someone might have tried to extend to a full-length magazine. Without seeing the gun or detailed photos, it is difficult to say. I would commend to your reading, the chapter on the M1886 in Madis' book. Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your Pard, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulls Head Bill SASS#33692 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 PICTURES!!!!........WHERE ARE THEY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 PICTURES!!!!........WHERE ARE THEY!!! yup GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 PICTURES!!!!........WHERE ARE THEY!!! +1 !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinas longarm 4146 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 As a member of the winchester collectors Assoc i can e-mail them to get the info that you'd receive via letter, at no charge. I would need S/N for search. A couple of things that you can look for is the set-back dustance of the dovetail for front sight from muzzle, is muzzle crowned or cut flat, and lenght of forened as I think all three are different lenghts (carbine, shortrifle and sporting rifle). I have a cut down 86 that was altered from front of barrel and dovetail is not exactly where winchester would have put it, and the oblong(for lack of a better description) dovetail for mag tube hanger is still present. I think your 1898 gun should have had a color case receiver, but I don't remember the exact date they went to blue. Madis book has all this info. If you have an original short-rifle then you hit a grand slam home-run, if not shoot it and enjoy as I do. (just last Sat had original Marlin 1895 and the 86 out getting ready for Smokey Mtn Shootout, both are (40-65s) PM or email me if you want me to try and get info. i'd do it this way and then if it seems that it's gonna letter correctly then I'd get the Cody letter. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted March 29, 2011 Author Share Posted March 29, 2011 As a member of the winchester collectors Assoc i can e-mail them to get the info that you'd receive via letter, at no charge. I would need S/N for search. A couple of things that you can look for is the set-back dustance of the dovetail for front sight from muzzle, is muzzle crowned or cut flat, and lenght of forened as I think all three are different lenghts (carbine, shortrifle and sporting rifle). I have a cut down 86 that was altered from front of barrel and dovetail is not exactly where winchester would have put it, and the oblong(for lack of a better description) dovetail for mag tube hanger is still present. I think your 1898 gun should have had a color case receiver, but I don't remember the exact date they went to blue. Madis book has all this info. If you have an original short-rifle then you hit a grand slam home-run, if not shoot it and enjoy as I do. (just last Sat had original Marlin 1895 and the 86 out getting ready for Smokey Mtn Shootout, both are (40-65s) PM or email me if you want me to try and get info. i'd do it this way and then if it seems that it's gonna letter correctly then I'd get the Cody letter. Barry I shall PM you. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOODFOX , sass#34179 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Well, yesterday, I aquired a Winchester 1886, in .45-70, for 1500 bucks. It was described as having a "cut barrell, and a cut magazine." The barrel is 22" long, and it clearly does have a magazine that was cut to half magazine length. But, I don't think the barrel was a rifle that has been cut back. For one thing, their is a slot at the end of the barrel where the magazine plug would fit. It's been filled in, but it was clearly there. And, as I look at the muzzle, if this barrel was longer and has been shortened, it was done by a very fantastic expert. In fact, as I was taking possession of it, I voiced my suspiscion to the clerk, who looked at it, and said, "I think you're right. This is factory carbine, and the only modification is the shortening of the magazine." Gun was made in 1898, and is in excellent mechanical condition. Finish is a nice even grey color. Anywhoo... I did find for short money a full length carbine magazine tube, and plan to "restore" to its original configuration. (But I will hold onto the original pieces of course) But what I am wondering is, is there anyway to learn if this really is a factory carbine, or a rifle that's been cut back? And, assuming it is a real carbine, did I really luck out on the price? Round barrel or octigon? carbines only had round how far back from the muzzel is the slot for the barrel band ? should be about 4 3/4'' .could be a short rifle .most carbines had a saddle ring . most short rifles had shorter forends about 1'' less than a standard rifle . pictures would help . Woodfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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