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Rule clarification


Lefty Wheeler

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I have searched the Shooter handbook and RO books and cannot find the answer to the following:

 

#1 Is there a rule applying to the amount of wrap on the lever of a rifle, or a thickness?

 

#2 A shooter has to use both pistols from one location. The shooter draws the first pistol shoots 3 rounds, has the hammer down on an empty round, holsters the pistol draws the second pistol shoots 5 rounds, discovers that they did not empty the first revolver, redraws it and fires the last 2 rounds. This is done without moving. Is there a safety rule on this issue? Not shooting GF.

 

Thanks LW

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#1 page 8 shooters hand bood

 

• Levers may be wrapped or padded with leather or other natural material.

• Filler “blocks” or other such mechanisms designed to prevent all or drastically limit

movement of the fingers within the lever loop are not allowed.

 

#2 page 16 RO I

 

11. Safe conditions of firearms during a course of fire are as follows:

• Revolver(s)

Safe for movement in hand, while holstering, and safe to leave the shooter’s hand.

• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber,

• Hammer fully down on an expended round (may not be originally staged in this

condition but may be restaged in this condition)

 

No safety specific I can put my finger on, but depending on how the stage was written might earn a P

 

That's what I found with a quick look. Might be something else I missed.

Grizz

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Thanks Grizzly Dave

That is the same thing that I found. Was told today that a 1/4" rule was in effect and could not find aneything. Also the pistol rule. Thanks.

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I have searched the Shooter handbook and RO books and cannot find the answer to the following:

#1 Is there a rule applying to the amount of wrap on the lever of a rifle, or a thickness?

#2 A shooter has to use both pistols from one location. The shooter draws the first pistol shoots 3 rounds, has the hammer down on an empty round, holsters the pistol draws the second pistol shoots 5 rounds, discovers that they did not empty the first revolver, redraws it and fires the last 2 rounds. This is done without moving. Is there a safety rule on this issue? Not shooting GF.

Thanks LW

#1 - From the Shooter's Handbook, pg 8:

• Levers may be wrapped or padded with leather or other natural material.

• Filler “blocks” or other such mechanisms designed to prevent all or drastically limit movement of the fingers within the lever loop are not allowed.

 

#2 - No. From the RO1 Manual, pg 16:

6. Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered) with hammer down on a spent case or empty chamber at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise; e.g., “move to next position and set gun on table or prop.” A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged. (Gunfighters may choose to shoot five rounds, safely stage their loaded revolvers, hammer down on a spent cartridge, shoot another firearm, retrieve the revolvers, and finish the “shooting string” before re-holstering.)

10. Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a miss unless the round is under the hammer, then it is a Stage Disqualification.

 

In your 1st question, I leave it to you if double wrapping or more would constitute a "filler block" or just a more secure wrap job. As long as it didn't constitue a mechanism to "prevent all or drastically limit..." movement of fingers inside the lever, well... that's between you and your RO, PM or other potential complainer.

 

In the 2nd, in your scenario, I'm assuming that you meant that both guns were fired in a single string. But regardless, if the revolver is hostered with the hammer down on an empty, and then drawn later to finish the last two rounds, and targets were hit in the manner described in the stage description, I don't see any penalty or safety issue being violated.

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Thanks Grizzly Dave

That is the same thing that I found. Was told today that a 1/4" rule was in effect and could not find aneything. Also the pistol rule. Thanks.

Where did they say the 1/4 inch rule was covered?

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I have searched the Shooter handbook and RO books and cannot find the answer to the following:

 

#1 Is there a rule applying to the amount of wrap on the lever of a rifle, or a thickness?

 

#2 A shooter has to use both pistols from one location. The shooter draws the first pistol shoots 3 rounds, has the hammer down on an empty round, holsters the pistol draws the second pistol shoots 5 rounds, discovers that they did not empty the first revolver, redraws it and fires the last 2 rounds. This is done without moving. Is there a safety rule on this issue? Not shooting GF.

 

Thanks LW

 

#1. Lever wrap rule quoted by GD is dependent on how the individual SHOOTER's hand/fingers fit in the loop.

 

#2. NO CALL...10 round "shooting string"...shooter shot 10 rounds.

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Question re: #2:

How does a shooter shoot only THREE rounds out of FIVE without being aware of it??? :unsure:

Did the T/O and/or spotters say anything at the time?

What were the stage instructions re: target order of engagement with the revolvers?

(i.e. there may have been a "P" if the HITS on the target(s) were not in the specified order).

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Nobody really stopped the shooter at the time, shooter had a brain faid and went to the next pistol, got a P for messing up the sequence and got a MS for holstering the first pistol. The P is not the issue as the shooter agreeded that thay should have gotten one. The issue is the MS. Also on the wrap issue would you say that if a shooters three fingers goes in to the lever up to the second knuckle and moves a little that they are in compliance with the rule?

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Thanks Grizzly Dave

That is the same thing that I found. Was told today that a 1/4" rule was in effect and could not find aneything. Also the pistol rule. Thanks.

 

A good start is to ask the person to show you the rule. When they are unable to find it, you'll likely hear, "Well, I've always been told that..." or "It's in there somewhere."

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Thanks Grizzly Dave

That is the same thing that I found. Was told today that a 1/4" rule was in effect and could not find aneything. Also the pistol rule. Thanks.

 

Ah HA! Another one of dem thar phantom rules that pop up from time to time!

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Nobody really stopped the shooter at the time, shooter had a brain faid and went to the next pistol, got a P for messing up the sequence and got a MS for holstering the first pistol. The P is not the issue as the shooter agreeded that thay should have gotten one. The issue is the MS. Also on the wrap issue would you say that if a shooters three fingers goes in to the lever up to the second knuckle and moves a little that they are in compliance with the rule?

 

Thanks for the clarification on that ... there would be NO MSV for holstering the revolver with unfired rounds remaining.

If the shooter hadn't drawn & fired the remaining rounds, they would have been scored as MISSES.

If an unfired round had been under the hammer when it was holstered, the penalty would have been a SDQ.

 

The lever wrap issue is very subjective...is the movement of the fingers "drastically limited"?

Define "moves a little".

The observation & "measurement" would have to be made with the SHOOTER's fingers in the lever to the point at which they are while firing the rifle.

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Thanks for the clarification on that ... there would be NO MSV for holstering the revolver with unfired rounds remaining.

If the shooter hadn't drawn & fired the remaining rounds, they would have been scored as MISSES.

If an unfired round had been under the hammer when it was holstered, the penalty would have been a SDQ.

 

The lever wrap issue is very subjective...is the movement of the fingers "drastically limited"?

Define "moves a little".

The observation & "measurement" would have to be made with the SHOOTER's fingers in the lever to the point at which they are while firing the rifle.

 

Unfortunately as soon as you toss in "subjective" it basically becomes unenforceable. I see lever "wraps" that fill a large portion of the lever all the time and have never seen anyone called for it. The rule should either be better defined or junked as unenforceable as presently written.

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Unfortunately as soon as you toss in "subjective" it basically becomes unenforceable. I see lever "wraps" that fill a large portion of the lever all the time and have never seen anyone called for it. The rule should either be better defined or junked as unenforceable as presently written.

 

;):D :D :D

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There was one competitor who made a block to go in the lever, IN FRONT of the trigger. When he closed the lever with the front of his finger on the block, the block would cause his finger to pull the trigger firing the rifle. That was declared illegal.

 

Another little innovation that I've seen but not tried is to make a lever wrap with the part OUTSIDE the lever made into a little bag filled with shot. This adds weight to the lever and helps prevent the dreaded short stroke. As far as I know, this is still legal since the extra bundle is outside the lever and doesn't restrict finger movement.

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Two Gun Johnnie

Don't be sorry you do a great job and we all learned something. I am not upset at all on the call, and hopefully, can't guarantee, I won't have another senior moment. We both love shooting at your club and think you all do a fantastic job that's one of the reasons we joined. See ya next month. KLK

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Thanks Lefty

 

 

2-Gun....check your PMs.

 

bb

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Another little innovation that I've seen but not tried is to make a lever wrap with the part OUTSIDE the lever made into a little bag filled with shot. This adds weight to the lever and helps prevent the dreaded short stroke. As far as I know, this is still legal since the extra bundle is outside the lever and doesn't restrict finger movement.

 

For the person who uses this "little innovation" I hope they never have to re-stage their rifle vertically.

could cause them a bit of a problem.

 

Marshal Stone

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#1 page 8 shooters hand bood

 

• Levers may be wrapped or padded with leather or other natural material.

• Filler “blocks” or other such mechanisms designed to prevent all or drastically limit

movement of the fingers within the lever loop are not allowed.

 

 

 

These words leave a lot of discretion to the stage officials and can be interpreted differently at different shoots. I have seen a lot of different padded levers at many shoots and from this I can not determine which is legal and which is not. When the original draft gun modification covenants were written, there was a lot of disagreement in this area and it does not appear it has been resolved via this wording. So what is legal and what is not? Can a single leather wrap of almost the whole lever (top, bottom and rear be used? Can the bottom and rear of the lever be wrapped with leather containing heavy fur or sheepskin be used. They certainly limit movement of the fingers, although the fingers for most folks would stay pretty loose in these wrapped levers. This is just couple of examples of the many many question this rule raises. What this really does is open up a can of worms so one shooter could get into the head of another shooter competitor at a big match by challenging his rifle leather wrap. What say you?

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The following is a PM to Pale Wolf Brunelle

I posted a question today that with the information provided you responded and I thank you. I felt that I provided enough info to find out the answer to the situation but may have failed and would like to correct it. Let me describe the stage and conditions and then post this correction and apology.

There is 3 pistol and 3 rifle targets.

Stage instructions:

10 rifle

10 pistol

4 + shotgun

Shooter starts with hands on hat. ATB engage the three pistol targets 3 times each and last round on the middle target.

Repeat with rifle.

Move to shotgun and knock down in any order.

Shooter is shooting DD. Draws the first pistol and hits the left target 3 times and as they are holstering the first pistol quickly draws the second pistol and shoots one shot on the right target then shoots the remaining 4 in the center target. TO say’s calmly you have two more in your first pistol as there was not enough time to stop the shooter from the holstering and drawing of the second pistol. Shooter redraws the first pistol and shoots the center target two times. Move on the rifle and shotgun to finish the stage.

Now the shooter earned a “P” for shooting targets out of sequence and any missed targets earn a miss. The shooter received a MS we thought for holstering the first pistol and shooting the second and then going back to the first, but that was not the correct assumption, wouldn’t a MS have been given for having 2 loaded pistols out at the same time? The shooter was drawing the second when the first still had 2 rounds in it.

I very much regret not having stated this in the post and will make a correction and apology to all including and especially my wife and Two Gun Johnnie for my mistake in not providing enough information to correctly evaluate the rules.

Thank you for your time

Lefty Wheeler

 

Responce from PWB:

Howdy Lefty,

The penalty for a NON-GF/BW shooter having two LOADED firearms "in hand"/"out of leather" at the same time is a PROCEDURAL for

"• Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing."

...it is NOT a MINOR SAFETY VIOLATION.

 

The list of MSV's (as well as the most common "P"s/SDQ's/& MDQ's) can be found in the PENALTY OVERVIEW on pages 25-26 of the RO1.

The only ones pertaining to revolvers are failure to holster at the end of the shooting string & cocking before the muzzle is 45º downrange.

 

Since the shooter can only get ONE "P" per stage, either the one for having two loaded revolvers out OR the one for HITTING the targets 'out of order' would apply; but NOT BOTH.

 

Shooter got an extra 10-seconds in penalties either way.

 

Thanks for the clarifications re: the details of what actually happened.

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