OT: Must vent about work

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

Maybe I don't comprehend well, but why would you want to announce in a public forum that you are going to execute a search warrant? If I caught one of my officers making such a statement that could compromise an investigation, I would suspend him and probably recommend termination. If the subject of your investigation runs any type of counter intel and most organized groups do, you can really mess things up. I've seen it happen with officers posting on Facebook

 

 

You're right, you don't comprehend well. What I've posted is: Somewhere in my city, a big case is working, in which the SWAT team will serve a no-knock warrant, and it involves drugs. Since my city has a full-time SWAT team that serves search warrants every day, 99% of which are drug-related, and at least one every week is a no-knock, I fail to see how I've given away ANYTHING THE PUBLIC DIDN'T ALREADY KNOW!

 

I just wanted to vent a little about how I hate drugs and the medical MJ law we have. You all have turned this thread into a pro vs. anti police rant, ill-informed discussions about Constitutional rights, borderline name-calling, Monday morning quarterbacking, and other sorts of tripe. I wash my hands, and I'm walking away from it.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

YEAH... you mean like the one about how the war on drugs has been totally ineffective for almost 50 years? What a sad travesty... and after 50 years... well... don't bother me with arguments.

 

Deaths from MJ...0

 

Deaths from steroids... 4

 

Deaths from Vitamin Supplements.... 10's of 1,000's

 

Deaths from PHARMACEUTICALS... 100's of 1,000's

 

Deaths from cigarettes.... MILLIONS

 

Deaths from ALCOHOL...10's of MILLIONS

 

GIMME A BREAK.. buncha hypocrites at best.

 

Yup - facts are facts and the #'s don't lie.

 

GG ~

[DocWard]

I just wanted to vent a little about how I hate drugs and the medical MJ law we have. You all have turned this thread into a pro vs. anti police rant, ill-informed discussions about Constitutional rights, borderline name-calling, Monday morning quarterbacking, and other sorts of tripe. I wash my hands, and I'm walking away from it.

 

I have to admit being somewhat confused when I read the above. I went back and reviewed the thread, and didn't find anything that I would call a "pro vs. anti police rant." It seems to me people are pretty much supportive of law enforcement, with perhaps one or two being overly zealous on their behalf when it comes to the medical marijuana laws. While on the subject of medical marijuana, it seems most are also in agreement that it is a bad thing.

 

In regard to ill-informed discussions about Constitutional rights, it seems that Sergeant Smokepole and I were the only ones hitting that particular topic, although Subdeacon Joe did comment on the issue as well. The discussion in regard to Fourth Amendment protections was one I actually thought was reasonably well "informed," with a former LEO and a current assistant prosecuting attorney laying out their understanding, which despite some initial need for clarification, ended up pretty much on the same page.

 

Borderline name-calling? Well I didn't see that either, but perceptions differ.

 

As for the Monday morning quarterbacking, most of what I saw was concern for the LEOs involved. Second guessing, maybe, but done with good intentions.

 

I don't know if you will read this, but I felt the necessity to respond at any rate.

 

It sounds as though you are staying busy, so I wish you luck on this one and the next, and the next...

[Foul Mouth Frank Shutz]

I read where there are only a few docs in the state writing prescriptions for pot. They busted one a few weeks ago for writing scrips without even examining patients.

Sounds like they went to medical school with the guys who worked for Elvis and Michael Jackson. Quacks are an old and honored tradition in this country, Howard Dean being an example.

[DocWard]

Sounds like they went to medical school with the guys who worked for Elvis and Michael Jackson. Quacks are an old and honored tradition in this country, Howard Dean being an example.

 

Now, now... He isn't so much a "quack" as a "YEEAAAGGHHHH!!!!"

 

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Now, now... He isn't so much a "quack" as a "YEEAAAGGHHHH!!!!"

 

 

Oy!

 

GG ~

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

You might want to mention that to Justice Clarence Thomas, as well as the rest of the Court. Justice Thomas wrote in Wilson v. Arkansas (1995) 514 U.S. 917 that "At the time of the framing, the common law of search and seizure recognized a law enforcement officer's authority to break open the doors of a dwelling, but generally indicated that he first ought to announce his presence and authority. In this case, we hold that this common-law "knock and announce" principle forms a part of the reasonableness inquiry under the Fourth Amendment." (emphasis mine) The knock and announce concept is not a recent addition to the law, it is discussed by Blackstone, and clearly was something the framers had in mind as they considered the Fourth Amendment.

 

As I alluded, and as Justice Thomas expounds in the decision, there is a reasonableness inquiry that must take place. "although a search or seizure of a dwelling might be constitutionally defective if police officers enter without prior announcement, law enforcement interests may also establish the reasonableness of an unannounced entry."

 

In essence, the knock is fundamental to our Constitutional rights. To pay it short shrift is to do damage to the Bill of Rights, something I am opposed to.

 

 

 

I am fortunate to work in a jurisdiction with two Common Pleas judges. They have a pretty good relationship with law enforcement, and are generally reliable, not in anyone's pocket. However, Ohio law does put specifics into place that must be met prior waiving the knock requirement. This is a legislative vehicle to follow the mandates of the reasonableness inquiry.

 

 

 

I'm going to ask you to do me a favor and go back and re-read my response. I did not say the OP had a cavalier attitude. I offered that perhaps the poster who was troubled may have interpreted it as such. Indeed, I suggested it was a part of the mindset of LEOs who make these entries, a part of that nervous or forced levity that often occurs when going into a known dangerous situation. I have seen it among my fellow soldiers, as well as felt it myself. I have been around LEOs when joking about it after the fact.

 

 

Doc, I'm telling ya that the Judge decides whether a no knock warrant is permitted. Many times we have requested no knock warrants based on known gang members with violent arrest convictions and known to be armed. The Judge decided against it and in many cases, the situation escalated and somebody caught a bullet. I much preferred to take suspects alive than kill them.

 

That said, every single time I served a warrant after knocking.... No! Banging on a doorway... I only had 2 times when somebody came to the door. A must knock and announce office does not in any way require the entry team to sit and wait for an answer.

 

Personally, I prefer the knock requirement. That way, if the subject of the warrant fires, it limits their recourse as far as civil liability lawsuits. Lawsuits are always being filed claiming that no notice was given and even that nobody gave them permission to enter.... With a search warrant and the courts take the case...

 

I have done quite a few warrants where as soon as we announced our office, bullets came flying through the door at us.... I have a pair of uniform pants with a single bullet hole in the leg, 4 inches from the jewels which means that the round came through the door as I booted it, traveled up the pant leg and exited. I am fortunate that it didn't strike anything important.

 

It's a sad time when an officer gets said warrant and a mistake happens, like the wrong house or apartment. It happens. I make no excuses but there are many safeguards to attempt to prevent these. We had one once that everything was correct but our informant gave us the wrong house. The house that we hit was a family member of the guy that we were looking for.

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

And as far as Medical Marijuana, my opinion is they this is a matter to be taken up between a person and their physician, like abortion.. If physicians and P.A.'s misuse their positions to just write scripts for it when there is no real medical need, the medical profession needs to step up and police their own. Then if the doctor continues to practice without a license, heavy duty jail time is in order as he is nothing more than a disguised dope dealer..

[DocWard]

Doc, I'm telling ya that the Judge decides whether a no knock warrant is permitted. Many times we have requested no knock warrants based on known gang members with violent arrest convictions and known to be armed. The Judge decided against it and in many cases, the situation escalated and somebody caught a bullet.

 

And I'm not disagreeing with you! Perhaps I wasn't specific enough in discussing Ohio law, but when I said there are specifics "that must be met prior (to) waiving the knock requirement," I should have stated that a judge must be the one to determine whether those specific requirements are met. I certainly apologize for any confusion I may have created in that regard.

 

And as far as Medical Marijuana, my opinion is they this is a matter to be taken up between a person and their physician, like abortion.. If physicians and P.A.'s misuse their positions to just write scripts for it when there is no real medical need, the medical profession needs to step up and police their own.

 

I would have to agree. I am not excited by the idea of marijuana use in general, although the libertarian in me leans toward the side of "if it does no harm to others..." If it has a medically beneficial purpose, then by all means, use it under the care of a doctor. Having said that, because it is illegal, and the illicit use creates massive problems for society and law enforcement, I am fully supportive of doing whatever is possible within the means of the law to eradicate the criminal element and the illegal usage of it.

[Foul Mouth Frank Shutz]

Now, now... He isn't so much a "quack" as a "YEEAAAGGHHHH!!!!"

 

"Crazy is as Crazy does". Forrest Gump' box of chocolates.

[Utah Bob #35998]

the libertarian in me leans toward the side of "if it does no harm to others..."

 

In 60's speak, "If it feels good, do it man!"

[DocWard]

In 60's speak, "If it feels good, do it man!"

 

Dude.... Right on!

[Foul Mouth Frank Shutz]

In 60's speak, "If it feels good, do it man!"

I think Bill Clinton borrowed it for his campaign slogan. One thing I'll say for the current occupant of the White House, at least he admits he inhaled.

[DocWard]

I think Bill Clinton borrowed it for his campaign slogan. One thing I'll say for the current occupant of the White House, at least he admits he inhaled.

 

Bill didn't borrow it, he lived it!

[ORNERY OAF]

Pards,

 

Been reading and thought to throw my 2cents in. Working on a tactical narcotics/Gang unit for the last few years and being on the entry team for a couple hundred entries, I gotta say that people view Marijuana wrong in most cases. Most people think Cheech and Chong with a bong and not 5-7 armed gang members selling weed 24/7 out of a house. VERY rarely do we hit a house and find no guns, barricades or dogs to protect it. And as far as deaths from MJ-0, i guess it depends on what stat you are looking at. I personally have seen several weed houses get jacked(home invasion) where either the dealers or robbers get shot/killed. Jack boys(robbery suspects) love hitting weed houses because there is lots of money, drugs and if successful, the occupants dont call the police. and yes, no-knock warrants are a little more rare and require certain criteria and must be Judge approved. I have done some on weed houses, when the dealer comes to the door to sell a quarter oZ with a m-11 in his hand, ya might wanna think about your guys safety first. As far as announcing prior to entry, we use a bullhorn on the outside, we verbally announce loudly and we are wearing complete, police marked raid gear and kevlar helmets when the team goes in so there is no mistake. Fortunatly, in L/E, we learn from our mistakes(not always,lol,but mostly). Medical Marijuana hasnt hit here yet, but I doubt it will change the criminal aspect much.bad guys are bad guys..sorry for soapboxing.

 

Load em Hot and Heavy,

Ornery Oaf

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Pards,

 

Been reading and thought to throw my 2cents in. Working on a tactical narcotics/Gang unit for the last few years and being on the entry team for a couple hundred entries, I gotta say that people view Marijuana wrong in most cases. Most people think Cheech and Chong with a bong and not 5-7 armed gang members selling weed 24/7 out of a house. VERY rarely do we hit a house and find no guns, barricades or dogs to protect it. And as far as deaths from MJ-0, i guess it depends on what stat you are looking at. I personally have seen several weed houses get jacked(home invasion) where either the dealers or robbers get shot/killed. Jack boys(robbery suspects) love hitting weed houses because there is lots of money, drugs and if successful, the occupants dont call the police. and yes, no-knock warrants are a little more rare and require certain criteria and must be Judge approved. I have done some on weed houses, when the dealer comes to the door to sell a quarter oZ with a m-11 in his hand, ya might wanna think about your guys safety first. As far as announcing prior to entry, we use a bullhorn on the outside, we verbally announce loudly and we are wearing complete, police marked raid gear and kevlar helmets when the team goes in so there is no mistake. Fortunatly, in L/E, we learn from our mistakes(not always,lol,but mostly). Medical Marijuana hasnt hit here yet, but I doubt it will change the criminal aspect much.bad guys are bad guys..sorry for soapboxing.

 

Load em Hot and Heavy,

Ornery Oaf

 

Probably the fact that no 'overdose' causes of death from the Mary Jane is what was referred to. As far as the criminal element/risk - there have been plenty of deaths in that regard

 

GG ~

[Bucky Buscadero, SASS #73085]

What's unfortunate and often tragic is when innocent citizens are mistakeny targeted for no knock raids. One recent example here in Atlanta is when the infamous APD Red Dog unit accepted as fact lies from an informant, then proceeded to lie to a judge in order to obtain a no knock warrant, then shot and killed a 92 year old grandmother who thought her home was being invaded by bad guys. Appears she was right. Some of that group are in prison now due to their actions. Google "Katherine Johnson Red Dog" to verify any of what I just related. That sort of incident isn't an anomoly, it happens too frequently. So count me as one who supports life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness over no knock mj raids. I am not bashing law dawgs by any means, I support the majority and know they are good guys. But some of the policies and proceedings that occur in the "war on drugs" do not mesh with my view of the constitution and justice. And there are some bad apples out there who abuse their power.

 

Bucky

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

CC go get em.

 

I care so very little about the drug dealers. They should be caught, prosecuted and then executed.

I do believe that mj leads to more serious drug abuse. I have seen it.

 

What I do care about is the occasional mistakes against innocent citizens.

We must be protected.

I don't know how often this happens!

But I would have to say even once is once too many.

[BJT]

I wish you wouldn't write things like that. Some MADD mother will get ideas.

 

I like Malaysia's take on marijuana. Possession of 100 grams or more of marijuana is considered prima facie evidence of intent to distribute. The penalty is MANDATORY execution, judges have no discretion. Despite being adjacent to the Golden Triangle, Malaysia has a very miniscule drug problem. And the recividism rate is to be envied.

 

Draconian. You bet. Effective. Very. Every port of entry has large signs informing people entring the country: If you are caught with drugs, you WILL be hanged.

 

Don't bother me with any arguments. If it was up to me I'd give the police the authority for summary execution. If you hven't guessed by now, I hate drugs and druggies, especially those who distribute.

[Foul Mouth Frank Shutz]

Pards,

 

Been reading and thought to throw my 2cents in. Working on a tactical narcotics/Gang unit for the last few years and being on the entry team for a couple hundred entries, I gotta say that people view Marijuana wrong in most cases. Most people think Cheech and Chong with a bong and not 5-7 armed gang members selling weed 24/7 out of a house. VERY rarely do we hit a house and find no guns, barricades or dogs to protect it. And as far as deaths from MJ-0, i guess it depends on what stat you are looking at. I personally have seen several weed houses get jacked(home invasion) where either the dealers or robbers get shot/killed. Jack boys(robbery suspects) love hitting weed houses because there is lots of money, drugs and if successful, the occupants dont call the police. and yes, no-knock warrants are a little more rare and require certain criteria and must be Judge approved. I have done some on weed houses, when the dealer comes to the door to sell a quarter oZ with a m-11 in his hand, ya might wanna think about your guys safety first. As far as announcing prior to entry, we use a bullhorn on the outside, we verbally announce loudly and we are wearing complete, police marked raid gear and kevlar helmets when the team goes in so there is no mistake. Fortunatly, in L/E, we learn from our mistakes(not always,lol,but mostly). Medical Marijuana hasnt hit here yet, but I doubt it will change the criminal aspect much.bad guys are bad guys..sorry for soapboxing.

 

Load em Hot and Heavy,

Ornery Oaf

On the other hand if Marijuana was legal the only house you would have to raid would be the local 7/11. Which is not to say that the Meth brewer affiliated with the national biker club (which will remain un-named) isn't still a legitimate target. Listing marijuana as a schedule one drug makes no sense and only makes the drug laws look stupid in general.