What's the call

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

With your first pistol engage the center cowboy with 2rds then sweep the three cowboys from either end.

 

Cowboy. Cowboy. Cowboy

 

Shooter double taps center cowboy. Hits left cowboy with 1 round. Next shot is a MISS. Last shot hits center cowboy.

 

What's your call and why?

 

Stan

[Doc Shapiro]

If I read that right, a miss and a P.

 

The first 3 rounds were on correct targets, with the 3rd round establishing the direction of sweep. The 4th round missed the intended target. The 5th round should have been on the right cowboy finishing off the order correctly. Since the 5th shot struck the center cowboy, the wrong target for the 5th shot, shooter gets the P.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nota John, SASS #51089L]

A miss and a P. First 3 shots OK, missed with the 4th shot on center target, should have gone for right target with 5th shot. Nota John

[Grizzly Dave]

I think Doc has it right.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The order was specific, not "in any order". Only choice shooter had was which end to fire the third shot at.

 

Call: A miss and a P, UNLESS the three targets were so close together that missing #3 could have hit #2 (that last shot).

 

Right out of the Miss Flow Chart.

 

1) Were all targets for the Revolver hit? No, one was missed. Assess that miss.

 

2) Move on to: Were targets hit in correct order except for the one miss? No, end target was skipped and the middle target was hit instead.

 

3) Did target placement give shooter a chance for a clean miss? If we assume (because the OP did not state it) that the targets were "sufficiently" spaced out, then the answer is Yes. And the call is Assess the P. (But, if the targets were close enough to have a miss on 3, hit 2 - last shot - then you do not get to assess the P, it's a no call - so with closely placed targets, the final call would be "just a miss").

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cassalong Hopidy]

Stan

 

First three shots ok, sweeping from L to R. The fourth shot,a MISS, therefore has to be a miss on the center cowboy. That miss is not causing the P (which occurs with the fifth shot when the shooter engages the center cowboy rather than the one on the R), so it stands. The fifth shot is a P. So I would give the shooter a miss and a P. I am making a couple of assumptions--that the targets are separated enough to allow a clean miss and that it was therefore reasonably clear that the shooter was trying for the center target with the fifth round. If so, I would give him the miss and P just like I would if he missed the second shot on the center cowboy, hit the L target, missed the center and hit the R target. Otherwise, I would give him a miss. What was your call?

 

Cassalong Hopidy

[Cassalong Hopidy]

I think Doc has it right.

[Cassalong Hopidy]

Excuse me--one correction. I was trying to say I would give him a miss on the third shot just like I would if it occurred on any other shot (excepting the one that is a P). In my hypothetical scenario, it would be 2 misses, not a miss and a P as in your scenario.

 

Cassalong

[Indian Jack.]

2 misses and a P.shot 5 was on wrong target...missed #5 target and hit #4

[Doc Shapiro]

2 misses and a P.shot 5 was on wrong target...missed #5 target and hit #4

You can't assign a miss for a pistol hit on a pistol target, regardless of which target was hit.

 

 

 

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

2 misses and a P.shot 5 was on wrong target...missed #5 target and hit #4

 

it concerns me that people are still trying to do this

[Indian Jack.]

You can't assign a miss for a pistol hit on a pistol target, regardless of which target was hit.

 

 

 

OK ....I LIKE that rule.

[Dubious Don #56333]

With your first pistol engage the center cowboy with 2rds then sweep the three cowboys from either end.

 

Cowboy. Cowboy. Cowboy

 

Shooter double taps center cowboy. Hits left cowboy with 1 round. Next shot is a MISS. Last shot hits center cowboy.

 

What's your call and why?

 

Stan

 

 

Decisions, decisions.....

#1. Miss only. is it possible the shooter was AIMING for the correct target (2) and MISSED, striking #3. Of course it is. Is it possible for the RO to discern what target the shooter was AIMING at. Yes. Does the shooter KNOW what target he/she was aiming at? Yes. Make the call depending on the answers to the above. Makes little difference how close the targets are although this is something to consider. It is not the ONLY thing to consider though. If it was a MISS, it can't be a P. So, two misses.

 

#2. P. And the shooter of course gets a miss for the miss.

 

#3 Two misses AND a P?!? Who makes calls like that? Please read the miss flow chart and applicable sections on procedural penalties in the RO-I handbook.

 

#4 One miss only. Shooter "missed" with the round intended for target #2 and hit 3 by accident. He still "hit a correct type target" and according to the miss flow chart, the call would be one miss.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

With your first pistol engage the center cowboy with 2rds then sweep the three cowboys from either end.

 

Cowboy. Cowboy. Cowboy

 

Shooter double taps center cowboy. Hits left cowboy with 1 round. Next shot is a MISS. Last shot hits center cowboy.

 

What's your call and why?

 

Stan

 

What's YOUR call...& why?

 

There shouldn't be any question as long as the targets are arranged such that they "allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument."

 

(MISS + P...as Doc posted in the first reply to the OP)

[Rye Miles #13621]

If I read that right, a miss and a P.

 

The first 3 rounds were on correct targets, with the 3rd round establishing the direction of sweep. The 4th round missed the intended target. The 5th round should have been on the right cowboy finishing off the order correctly. Since the 5th shot struck the center cowboy, the wrong target for the 5th shot, shooter gets the P.

 

 

 

 

 

 

#1

[Cholla Bob]

1 Miss and a P

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

What's YOUR call...& why?

 

There shouldn't be any question as long as the targets are arranged such that they "allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument."

 

(MISS + P...as Doc posted in the first reply to the OP)

 

OK....there was PLENTY of room between targets for a CLEAN MISS........

 

From my perspective NO DOUBT.....a MISS and a "P". The P was for the 5th round hitting the target that should have been hit with the 4th round.

 

There was quite a discussion over this lately and the "A Miss can't cause a P" clause was brought up adamantly. I have presented as much detail as I was given.......I was not directly involved......just happened to be at the match and heard all about it.........

 

This is not the first time that this has come up. I had to make a call like this at the Last Stand. The shooter was sure that a Miss couldn't cause a P. I tried to explain to him that his 7th round hitting the 6th target caused the P not the miss on the 6th target.

 

I really wish we would GO BACK to hitting a target is a HIT and hitting any target out of order is a P.....regardless of which TYPE firearm is being used.

 

Stan

[Griff]

OK....there was PLENTY of room between targets for a CLEAN MISS........

From my perspective NO DOUBT.....a MISS and a "P". The P was for the 5th round hitting the target that should have been hit with the 4th round.

There was quite a discussion over this lately and the "A Miss can't cause a P" clause was brought up adamantly. I have presented as much detail as I was given.......I was not directly involved......just happened to be at the match and heard all about it........I do know that the shooter did NOT get a P.

This is not the first time that this has come up. I had to make a call like this at the Last Stand. The shooter was sure that a Miss couldn't cause a P. I tried to explain to him that his 7th round hitting the 6th target caused the P not the miss on the 6th target.

I really wish we would GO BACK to hitting a target is a HIT and hitting any target out of order is a P.....regardless of which TYPE firearm is being used.

Stan

I for one, hope we don't. A miss on a pistol target that inadvertently strikes a rifle target should only be a miss. In that case, the miss would then cause a P. Here's how I read the pertinent explanation in the RO1 Manual, 1st the actual language:

10- SECOND PENALTIES

Procedural Penalties

• Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by the stage description.

Now, my notes to help me keep it straight:

Engaging the firearms in an order other than as required by the stage description.

<LI>Engaging the targets in an order other than as required by the stage description.

<LI>Engaging the maneuvers in an order other than as required by the stage description.

What I do wish, is that the Miss Flow Chart would be changed to simplify the language. That "(except any misses)" is what seems to cause most folks problems in understanding that you don't have to "HIT" the targets in order, you have to "ENGAGE" them in order.

[Carolina Cowboy]

Question, just to make sure I fully understand this( it has happened at our club a couple of times) if that same stage was the rifle stage, shooter did it the same way, but reloaded to shoot the last target, would they still get a P ? Or would they need to move on to the last target, hit it, then reload and shoot center target to make up the miss?

[Deadlee Headlee SASS 54317 L]

Question, just to make sure I fully understand this( it has happened at our club a couple of times) if that same stage was the rifle stage, shooter did it the same way, but reloaded to shoot the last target, would they still get a P ? Or would they need to move on to the last target, hit it, then reload and shoot center target to make up the miss?

 

If they had shot the same way with a rifle and jacked out a live round instead of firing a miss. Then they could re-engage the target that would have been hit by the jacked out round if fired in the sequence of the shooting string saving the last target for their reload. This does not apply to the revolvers as they do not jack out rounds and reloads are not permitted to negate a miss.

 

-Deadlee

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

When there is a specific order of engagement, each shot has an assigned target.

A shooter is not allowed to "make up" misses with fired rounds as he engages the targets.

Once a target is missed the shooter should move on to the next target in the shooting order.

 

(that is NOT the same as the options a shooter has in regard to unfired rounds EJECTED during a shooting string)

 

An extreme example of this is a 5-round "sweep" from left to right...

i.e....1-2-3-4-5

shooter shoots at target #1...misses...and continues to engage target #1 until he finally HITS it with the 5th round...

m-m-m-m-1

the correct call would be FOUR MISSES and a "P" (the fifth shot should have been on target #5

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

If they had shot the same way with a rifle and jacked out a live round instead of firing a miss. Then they could re-engage the target that would have been hit by the jacked out round if fired in the sequence of the shooting string saving the last target for their reload.

This does not apply to the revolvers as they do not jack out rounds and reloads are not permitted to negate a miss.

-Deadlee

 

It DOES apply to revolvers when there is a "dud" round (bad primer) or a malfunction with rounds remaining in a revolver.

Shooter may replace any "bad" ammo and/or reload a functioning firearm to complete the stage.

 

Please check out THIS THREAD.

 

SASS matches above the club level are no alibi matches. Once the first round goes down range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of his or her ability. Reshoots/restarts are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions.

SHB p.20

[Carolina Cowboy]

When there is a specific order of engagement, each shot has an assigned target.

A shooter is not allowed to "make up" misses with fired rounds as he engages the targets.

Once a target is missed the shooter should move on to the next target in the shooting order.

 

(that is NOT the same as the options a shooter has in regard to unfired rounds EJECTED during a shooting string)

 

An extreme example of this is a 5-round "sweep" from left to right...

i.e....1-2-3-4-5

shooter shoots at target #1...misses...and continues to engage target #1 until he finally HITS it with the 5th round...

m-m-m-m-1

the correct call would be FOUR MISSES and a "P" (the fifth shot should have been on target #5

 

Thanks PW, you answered that and cleared it up for me, I thought from the flow chart it was that way, but wanted to make sure I fully understood it, again, thanks

[Carolina Cowboy]

If they had shot the same way with a rifle and jacked out a live round instead of firing a miss. Then they could re-engage the target that would have been hit by the jacked out round if fired in the sequence of the shooting string saving the last target for their reload. This does not apply to the revolvers as they do not jack out rounds and reloads are not permitted to negate a miss.

 

-Deadlee

 

Thanks Deadlee

[Griff]

Question, just to make sure I fully understand this( it has happened at our club a couple of times) if that same stage was the rifle stage, shooter did it the same way, but reloaded to shoot the last target, would they still get a P ? Or would they need to move on to the last target, hit it, then reload and shoot center target to make up the miss?

From the RO1 Manual, pg 16:

9. If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the shooter will be awarded a single procedural penalty. In this situation, if the shooter elects or is forced to miss an appropriate target due to unsafe angles or target availability, a round may be reloaded to avoid a miss penalty (the dreaded “Double Jeopardy” of a procedure and miss). This does not mean a shooter may reload a rifle or revolver at any other time to make up a miss.

Unfired ejected rifle rounds may be replaced.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Thanks Griff,

That specific situation is the ONLY time that a shooter may reload a round to make up a miss with a round that is fired and misses a target.

(except for shotgun & when the stage instructions allow it for rifle & pistol misses)

[John E. Law]

OK....there was PLENTY of room between targets for a CLEAN MISS........

 

From my perspective NO DOUBT.....a MISS and a "P". The P was for the 5th round hitting the target that should have been hit with the 4th round.

 

There was quite a discussion over this lately and the "A Miss can't cause a P" clause was brought up adamantly. I have presented as much detail as I was given.......I was not directly involved......just happened to be at the match and heard all about it........I do know that the shooter did NOT get a P.

 

This is not the first time that this has come up. I had to make a call like this at the Last Stand. The shooter was sure that a Miss couldn't cause a P. I tried to explain to him that his 7th round hitting the 6th target caused the P not the miss on the 6th target.

 

I really wish we would GO BACK to hitting a target is a HIT and hitting any target out of order is a P.....regardless of which TYPE firearm is being used.

 

Stan

 

Since I was directly involved in this I will chime in here. First off the shooter committed a violation on 2 different stages back to back and each caused controversy.

 

On this stage described here, The Shooter WAS given a miss and a "P".

 

The question came down to the poor language of the miss flow chart and the definition of a sweep. A sweep is (Dictionary) "To make a path by clearing space" (i.e. (my interpetitation) hitting the targets in a row, one after the other).

 

Based on only this, the shooter did continue "the sweep" hitting the targets in a row. With that thought, the miss flow chart, and the statement "a miss cannot cause a "P", THAT is where the "issue" came into play. I am not arguing ANY side of this anymore just stating what occurred so please do not bring this up to me at a match ever again. One reason being, I spoke with PWB after the shooting day and got his call, and 2, the BS over the issue ruined my match due to everyone wanting to argue it. This continued all throughout the next day, after the match director made the final call, AND WHILE I WAS AT THE LOADING TABLE preparing for my stages! THIS is EXTREMELY inconsiderate! There should be a penalty for that.

 

The bigger issue was actually on the next stage where it was a 1-4-4-1 rifle stage. The shooter shot the first 1-4 correctly then got a little hiccup in the rifle. He then continued and shot target 3 with 3 rounds and the last target with 1 (I guess he thought he jacked the round). He moved on to the next gun, but still had the one round in the chamber. I called 1 miss, 1 "P", and 1 minor safety. I was overruled and the shooter received 1 miss and 1 safety, NO "P". I was told he could put the "miss" anywhere he wanted. The issue was brought up, the official call was made, and it was over almost immediately. I, for my own knowledge, later verified the correct call with PWB. So people, don't continue arguing it after the call has been made especially when someone is trying to continue their match.

 

The biggest problem with all of this was NO one would leave it alone, even after the final calls were made.

 

And BTW the shooter could of cared less about any of the calls.

 

After this experience I will NEVER argue a call on behalf of someone ever again. All it did was bring down a whole bunch of BS and stress on me which ruined the entire match.

 

I do want to say Thank You to PWB for answering my questions so quickly for me.

 

JEL

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Why were those not stage officials involved in the calls at all? Way too many times posse members not stage officers start these disagreements. Why does their opinion count?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Since I was directly involved in this I will chime in here. First off the shooter committed a violation on 2 different stages back to back and each caused controversy.

 

On this stage described here, The Shooter WAS given a miss and a "P".

 

The question came down to the poor language of the miss flow chart and the definition of a sweep. A sweep is (Dictionary) "To make a path by clearing space" (i.e. (my interpetitation) hitting the targets in a row, one after the other).

 

Based on only this, the shooter did continue "the sweep" hitting the targets in a row. With that thought, the miss flow chart, and the statement "a miss cannot cause a "P", THAT is where the "issue" came into play. I am not arguing ANY side of this anymore just stating what occurred so please do not bring this up to me at a match ever again. One reason being, I spoke with PWB after the shooting day and got his call, and 2, the BS over the issue ruined my match due to everyone wanting to argue it. This continued all throughout the next day, after the match director made the final call, AND WHILE I WAS AT THE LOADING TABLE preparing for my stages! THIS is EXTREMELY inconsiderate! There should be a penalty for that.

 

The bigger issue was actually on the next stage where it was a 1-4-4-1 rifle stage. The shooter shot the first 1-4 correctly then got a little hiccup in the rifle. He then continued and shot target 3 with 3 rounds and the last target with 1 (I guess he thought he jacked the round). He moved on to the next gun, but still had the one round in the chamber. I called 1 miss, 1 "P", and 1 minor safety. I was overruled and the shooter received 1 miss and 1 safety, NO "P". I was told he could put the "miss" anywhere he wanted. The issue was brought up, the official call was made, and it was over almost immediately. I, for my own knowledge, later verified the correct call with PWB. So people, don't continue arguing it after the call has been made especially when someone is trying to continue their match.

 

The biggest problem with all of this was NO one would leave it alone, even after the final calls were made.

 

And BTW the shooter could of cared less about any of the calls.

 

After this experience I will NEVER argue a call on behalf of someone ever again. All it did was bring down a whole bunch of BS and stress on me which ruined the entire match.

 

I do want to say Thank You to PWB for answering my questions so quickly for me.

 

JEL

 

WOW Johnny....I hadn't heard about the 1,4,4,1.....I'll have to look at the wording in the book but if my memory serves me right it was 1,4,4,1 starting on either end. Seems to me the pistols were any order but the rifle was a sweep........if that is the case I would agree with you.....M,P,S.

 

Just checked the booklet. It was a 1,4,4,1 sweep.....Miss, P, Safety. We had a similar call on our posse on a different stage.

 

Stan

 

 

Stan

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Stan, this was such a simple one that I thot it was a tick question when I first saw it just after you posted.

 

JEL, don't let a bunch of silly willies git to you from front this point. I understand how it can ruin your day and match when it happens as you described. Those folks owe you a very heartfelt apology! Forthwith!

 

I sincerely wish people would read the "books" more often so this type of stuff doesn't happen. but........

 

Cheyenne

[Anvil Al #59168]

Darn.

If this kind of argument goes on over what should be VERY simple calls.

Think the next time they have a shoot.

I might just roll over and go back to sleep.

As I don't see what in the world there was to argue about in either case.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I thought this would of made it to the wire sooner than this LOL,I was the berm marshal & wrote the stages for match,the shooter actually missed twice & had a P,he was given the P for shooting 5th shot on center target.I knew it was the correct call if it had not been there would been something seriously wrong with rules.The shooter new he had a P & was fine with it.

 

 

 

AO

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

Darn.

If this kind of argument goes on over what should be VERY simple calls.

Think the next time they have a shoot.

I might just roll over and go back to sleep.

As I don't see what in the world there was to argue about in either case.

 

 

There was no wait,next shooter.Most of the chit chat was behind the lines.

 

 

 

 

 

AO