The Incognito Bandito Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I have a odd (for me) problem with one of my revolvers. I have a Navy Arms/Uberti "Gunfighter" model in .45Colt which will very frequently not discharge a round despite having a very visible indentation from having been hit by the hammer on the primer. This will happen with every cylinder full, or at least every other cylinder. I reload, and prime all my rounds with a Lee hand primer. I have not had ANY misfires with any of my reloads in any of my other firearms, and when the same .45Colt ammo is fired in my other Uberti revolver or my EMF 1892 Hartford there are NO misfires. In the NA Gunfighter, if I fire the misfired round a second time, it goes off with no problems. I am using Winchester primers in Starline brass. Any clue what the problem is or could be? It's really frustrating on a stage to keep cocking the hammer only to let it fall on an already fired round just to get around to the bum round the fire it a 2nd time. Gregg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Fill 'Em 67797 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Sounds like the hammer in that gun is just not quite hitting hard enough. Either the spring is a little weak or there might be a burr inside the frame causing the hammer to drag a little. Look at the sides of the hammer and see if there any rub marks where it is dragging. If there are, you just have to smooth inside the frame where it is rubbing. You will have to remove the hammer to be able to get in there. I would also try a new hammer spring and see if that helps. You could also try a different brand of primer. Some brands are "harder" than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 The first culprit, as mentioned, is probably a weak main spring and perhaps hammer drag. The other thing to look at is head space and how far the firing pin protrudes thru the recoil shield. Coffinmaker PS: Try a batch of ammo loaded with Federal primers ad see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 What Doc Fillem said. + Federal primers seem to be the most sensitive,personally I consider winchester primers to be the same as No Primers. This from someone who had used winchester primers for thirty years,Never Again, Adios Sgt. Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 The only time I ever had a Misfire on my 73 (smithed by Long hunter) was when someone at a shoot was short on ammo and I gave him 20... when we got back to the parking lot he gave me 20 of his reloads as replacements and I tried to use them at the next shoot the jacked out duds 1 from the first string and 2 fro the 2ed had primer indents just as deep as the ones that went off and when placed in my pistol the 3 fired off no problem.... Yep Winchester Primers I have had no problems on the 73 with Black hills factory ammo and my own reloads using wolf and now federal primers nada zip I pulla da trigger ita goes a Banga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Johns Wolf Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 2 other thoughts: #1 the firing pin might be a mite too short. I had that on my 2006 production Uberti Cattleman. Once it was replaced by one of the correct length the pistol would ignite any given cartridge, factory ammo or reloads. #2 I assume you have one of these more recent production Uberti SAA variants with the cylinder pin safety. The cylinder pin might just be a mite too long or might not be properly fixed in the firing notch. Long Johns Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I was having the same type of issue with my '73. Sometimes all the rounds would go off and sometimes I'd have a dent in the primer without ignition. Turned out the firing pin had lost a bit of its shape and was now shorter than supposed to be. Replaced the pin and all rounds now go off. And I always use Winchester primers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Norsk Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Priming with a hand tool at times will not push the primer below the back of the case and will not preload the anvil. Some brass has deeper primer pockets than others. You might try cleaning the primer pockets before priming and make sure the primers are well seated. Like the boys say try other primers also. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Incognito Bandito Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks for all the help so far guys! One thing I hadn't considered was any possible problem with the firing pin, so def. gonna check that out. One thing I thought of, but wasn't sure if it would be a waste of time or not. I don't know if the misfire problem is only with ONE specfic cylinder chamber or if it is a random problem. So I had thought of test firing each cylinder by itself and see what happens. Good idea? I would consider it was the Winchester primers, but as I have had no problems with the same ammo in my rifle and other revolver, that's what has me stumped! For me, CCI and Winchester primers are plentiful, but haven't seen any Federals. So would it be a consensus to change out the hammer spring and mainspring and see if there is any improvement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 The first culprit, as mentioned, is probably a weak main spring and perhaps hammer drag. The other thing to look at is head space and how far the firing pin protrudes thru the recoil shield. Coffinmaker PS: Try a batch of ammo loaded with Federal primers ad see what happens. That's the very first place to look. Kuhnhausen's Colt SAA shop manual shows protrusion to be .045" min. to .056 max. None of our modern SAA's even come close. Plus, Uberti is notorious for floating the firing pins (front to back)so that a heavy hammer spring will slam it into primers. The pin should float but only laterally so it lines up with the hole. What I have found with most of todays clones is the makers get the parts close then rather than waste time hand fitting they just use excessively heavy springs to over come the poor fit. To use lighter springs these parts should be better fitted. In this case if you want to run lighter springs the firing pin has to be corrected. Changing FP's is one option, but finding longer pins can be difficult. Next option is sometime protrusion can be added by removing some metal from the hammer face. But, don't go stupid removing metal. You can screwup the timing if you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Check to make sure there is no crud around the firing pin that might be keeping it from moving all the way forward. Just a few thousandths can make a difference. Check also for crud keeping the hammer from coming all the way forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks for all the help so far guys! One thing I hadn't considered was any possible problem with the firing pin, so def. gonna check that out. One thing I thought of, but wasn't sure if it would be a waste of time or not. I don't know if the misfire problem is only with ONE specfic cylinder chamber or if it is a random problem. So I had thought of test firing each cylinder by itself and see what happens. Good idea? I would consider it was the Winchester primers, but as I have had no problems with the same ammo in my rifle and other revolver, that's what has me stumped! For me, CCI and Winchester primers are plentiful, but haven't seen any Federals. So would it be a consensus to change out the hammer spring and mainspring and see if there is any improvement? I had to replace the firnig pins on my Uberti's as they had worn down enough to cause occasional failure to fires. Once they were replaced, no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Bandito, I had a similar problem with one of my Uberti's. I took the firing pin out by driving out the pin, and found that the retaining pin was bent in a U shape. The retaining pin was the only thing that bore on the firing pin and after a time that bent the retaining pin. I made a steel shim to fit behind the firing pin and put in a new retaining pin (made out of an appropriately sized numbered drill) and that solved the problem. This way the retaining pin only keeps the firing pin from falling out. The bearing surface for the firing pin is the hammer via the shim. It's a little difficult to measure the firing pin protrusion without a proper tool, but you can come pretty close with a feeler gauge and eyeball. As Nate stated, you've got about .011" tolerance to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocDisaster # 45431 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 +1 make sure you have your primers seated completely. Priming with a hand tool at times will not push the primer below the back of the case and will not preload the anvil. Some brass has deeper primer pockets than others. You might try cleaning the primer pockets before priming and make sure the primers are well seated. Like the boys say try other primers also. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheyenne wells, sass #18364 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 All the above comments are valid but here's one more. A few years ago I was shooting a'Dakota' and had a few misfires using Federal primers. After blaming everything but the good Lord I found the problem. The retaining pin that secures the firing pin in the hammer was bent and replacing this pin solved the problem. You have to remove the pin to see if it is bent as checking for looseness didn't work in this case. Hope you get the problem sorted out. CHEYENNE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throckmorton,23149 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 since I got away from using Win. primers,I'm a happy er camper.As you say,even when the dent looks deep euff,they just didn't go off reliably enuff for me. I just tried some Wolf primers that I ordered,and they fit nice and snug..almost tight..and at a practice session I had zero misfires....the week before using the same guns I had at least 3 which cost me tons of time. All the answers have validity,but for me I"ve proven to myself that the biggest culprit has been the Win. primers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Mayo, SASS # 28961 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 There have been quite a few thoughtful comments and suggestions posted. I had a similar problem with a UFSA revolver I acquired used. I experienced a misfire almost every time I'd shoot it in a match. Usually 1 or sometimes 2 rounds would not fire and the primers had dents pretty close to the center of the primer but not as deep as as those that fired. I was using Winchester primers. I tried Federal primers with no improvement along with investigating a number of other options including most of what has been listed here. The problem did not present it self if I shot in a more deliberate fashion. So as not to build y'all a clock here. What I finally figured out was that because of a very light trigger (about 1.5 #'s), my having little feeling in my trigger finger and poor technique on my part, I was brushing the trigger, tripping it before I had the hammer all the way back allowing the hammer to fall with my thumb riding the hammer just enough to reduce the impact on the primer. The fix was to have the trigger recut for a 5-6 # pull that breaks very crisp so that it does not feel heavy. In fact you could cock the hammer and twirl the revolver (empty of course) around your finger without tripping the trigger. I am sure that there will be those that feel a heavier crisp trigger is not the answer to my experience but that I should improve my technique. Since one of the components that allowed this to happen was my having very little feeling in my trigger fingers improving my technique only would have a limited benefit. I am please with the solution. The bottom line here and why I am sharing my experience it to remind everyone that there is a additional component to be considered as part of the investigation. The Shooter of the firearm. The technique of the shooter can have an impact on the successful or unsuccessful discharge of a firearm if other components of the process are marginal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 A well fitted "Uberti" can have a sweet trigger pull of under 2 pounds WITH-OUT reducing the hammer spring one single Oz. ... And as such be completely relieble with all primmers ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairshake Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I don't know what is going on with some lots of Winchester LP primers but I have had quite a few misfire and as the others said with good center hits and switched to Federal. Problem solved. Another thing that has not been brought up I think. I did skim over some postings. Check the revolver for end shake and see if you have cylinder movement. This can be fixed with shims from Brownels. Check the firing pin recoil shield for any burrs that keep it from full travel. Look at the amount of protusion you have when the pin is pushed all the way forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Incognito Bandito Posted April 15, 2011 Author Share Posted April 15, 2011 I think I may have discovered a possible explanation for the frequent misfires in my Navy Arms SAA. With the base pin locked in place, the hammer down and loading gate closed, there is what I feel is a lot of forward/backward movement. When I then checked my other revolver (a Uberti Cattleman Chishom) there is NO forward/backward movement of the cylinder at all. If there is, it must be minute, as I cannot feel nor see it. I'm wondering if this significant cylinder movement could be the cause of the light hammer strikes on the primers and causing the misfire, and not necessarily a primer issue. (But I am still gonna try some Federal primers just in case) What's your diagnosis? And how do I get it fixed? Gregg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Post # 19 by Fairshake gave you the answer. Get a shim kit from Brownell's and that should solve the endshake problem. Replacing the firing pin retaining pin will help for a while until it bends again. Nate had the real answer, make sure that the firing pin protrudes the proper amount. Even if you shim the cylinder as suggested, the firing pin may not be long enough because the firing pin retaining pin is bent. You can replace the pin with a longer one or put a shim behind the firing pin and replace the soft firing pin retaining pin. If you have no headspace problem and proper firing pin protrusion, you can have a ridiculously light hammer spring and still get reliable ignition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Smokepole #29248L Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 I had an issue just like that with a pair of mine. The firing pins were just a touch too deep in their setting. I removed the cross pin holding the firing pins in the hammers. Then I made a couple of shims from .38 Special cases and cut them into discs small enough to set in the firing pin opening of the hammer. I reset the hammers and drilled a hole through the hammers (Used the original holes) and through the shoulder of the firing pins. 100% ignition since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 One or more things to consider ... if this is a well used gun, the firing pin may now be too short. I actually had one wear out on my pratice gun this year (get properly hardened pins). If it is a little used gun, check to be sure the firing pin is not hitting the sides of the firing pin hole. I had to fix that issue on one gun. I have hammer safety blocks on my guns and if you do, be sure to verify that the springs on the hammer safety blocks are not weak. I did not have this bug, but others have told me to look for this if it applies. On a new gun, be sure the hammer is fitted properly, meaning that is sits all the way down into the frame. I had to remove the firing pins on one of my guns (when new) and file down the face of the hammer (by where the fireing pins is attached) to make the hammer it sit all the way down in the frame. On another gun, I had to relieve underneath the firing pin because the frame or the hammer was cut oddly. Replacing the fireing pins did not help until the hammers were properly fitted. Thats about it from me. When you get this fixed that gun will serve you well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 I had the opposite problem with primers. I used Win. for years and figured I'd switch over to Federal, so I picked up 10K. Had two Federals fail to fire out of the first hundred pack I used during the warm-up stages at a regional match. After dissasembling the ammo and removing the faulty primers I found the problem, no priming compound. Now, I don't care what brand of primer it is, I check every primer to make sure it has compound. LL' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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