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Nickle Vs. Brass .38 cases


Hal A. Looyah #83098

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I've heard to shoot nickle cases in pistols, as they are more prone to split, since a split in a revolver won't cost you any time. And to save brass cases for your rifle, where a split in brass is more likely to come out easily. Is there any truth to that? I reload them till they split. I shoot a Marlin rifle and Blackhawks with pretty light loads of Bullseye or Clays.

 

I know that nickle cases are nickle plated brass. I've got a lot more nickle cases than brass, and my brass cases are dwindling. Thanks

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Getting a split case out of a rifle can be much harder than getting a split case out of a pistol, I think that's what you meant to say, but it came out different, or at least I read it different.

 

Never had a split case in a rifle, but I've heard the same as you. Once I got enough brass cases I pulled my nickle ones out of the shoot and reload rotation. I keep some to put in my belt for the rare stage on the clock reload, and shoot them when I am likely to lose brass.

 

If that's all ya got and can't afford to buy more brass cases right now, shoot what cha got, but understand that if a case splits in the rifle, it will most likely cause you misses for the remaining rounds in it on that stage.

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Howdy Hal.

 

I've heard the same stories but my personal experience is different.

 

I use nickel cases in my Marlin for all the matches. But, I practice with brass casings. I can't tell any difference.

 

About a year ago, I did a limited test using some nickeled cases in my Marlin that ALREADY had a minor split. I wanted to see if in fact, what problems might occur if I got a ruptured case during a match.

 

From my limited testing, NOTHING changed. All those nickeled cases extracted and ejected just like all the other non-split stuff.

 

The only thing I could advise is to test it yourself in your own Marlin.

 

..........Widder

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Howdy Hal.

 

I've heard the same stories but my personal experience is different.

 

I use nickel cases in my Marlin for all the matches. But, I practice with brass casings. I can't tell any difference.

 

About a year ago, I did a limited test using some nickeled cases in my Marlin that ALREADY had a minor split. I wanted to see if in fact, what problems might occur if I got a ruptured case during a match.

 

From my limited testing, NOTHING changed. All those nickeled cases extracted and ejected just like all the other non-split stuff.

 

The only thing I could advise is to test it yourself in your own Marlin.

 

..........Widder

 

 

The worse thing that can happen with a split case (nickle or brass) in a rifle is when the bullet gets squashed back into the case causing a huge jam and no bam. I shoots the nickle out the pistols.

 

Spittoon

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Howdy

 

In my experience nickel plated cases do tend to split more readily than plain brass cases. I have always felt this was because sometimes the plating baths used to apply the nickel might not be up to snuff and might damage the underlying brass.

 

For that reason, I no longer load nickel plated cases in any caliber except 38 Special. I only still load them in 38 Special because I still have a bucketfull that I have collected over the last 30 years or so. But I don't shoot 38 Sp in CAS anyway, so it is a moot issue for me.

 

As for split brass and extraction, every once in a blue moon I will experience a split case in a revolver. I have never had any trouble popping them right out with the extractor rod, no other more drastic means was necessary.

 

I shoot 44-40 in all my rifles, and they do not tend to split down the middle like most straight walled cases do. They tend to only develop short splits right at the case mouth.

 

As far as I am concerned, problems ejecting split brass is a non-issue, especially since I am usually timed with a sundial anyway.

 

 

The worse thing that can happen with a split case (nickle or brass) in a rifle is when the bullet gets squashed back into the case causing a huge jam and no bam. I shoots the nickle out the pistols.

 

Why did a round with a split case make it into the magazine in the first place?

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I think everyone agrees that nickel splits faster than brass. As far as split brass cases ejecting any better than split nickel cases, my experience has been that they eject the same. Of course, there is some variation in how large the split is and sometimes certain split cases, whether nickel or brass, don't come out as easy as others. I haven't been able to determine a pattern such as bigger splits are harder to eject than smaller splits, but logic would seem to say they would be. I have noted that split cases sometimes are more difficult to remove from pistols, so it seems the same would hold true for the rifle. I suspect that since there is much more leverage involved with the rifle, it is simply not noticed.

 

Personally, I use what nickel I have in the rifle simply because I know they are not going to last as long and if I'm going to lose cartridges, as you do when many times when the folks picking up "brass" are unable to find all ten, it might as well be the ones that were not going to last anyway.

 

The key to keeping the split ones from becoming a problem is good inspection before reloading. Yes, I know some people use all new brass in their rifle in a big match. If I was a candidate to win the match, I might consider it. Of course, now that I've talked about this, it will probably bite me at the next big match. If so, Widder will get off light. :)

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just check your edges carefully. if you find evidence of a split use it in the pistol.

 

When I see those tiny beginnings of a crack (1/32), I mark the end of it with a black marker. I use it in a pistol and at the unloading table, the black end reminds me to look closely at it and in the trash it goes.

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Like Driftwood said, I tend to notice more splits with the nickle cases. they just don't seem to get as many reloading cycles as the regular brass ones. Could be the plating hardens the case more. Generally during the reloading process, if I notice a split it goes into the scrap can.......Buck :blush:

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I shoot anything that's a 38 special (after it goes :rolleyes: thru my Great emaculant eyeball inspection)

Whether they are brass or nickel plated.. and yeah.. I don't get as many reloads out of the nickel plated either..

I've haven't (Yet :blush: ) had a split case stuck in a rifle. I shoot a yellowboy.

I do prefer (like Grizz) the nickel plated reloads in my belt for a reload.. they don't turn green while in your loops.. :)

 

Rance <_<

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Howdy

 

In my experience nickel plated cases do tend to split more readily than plain brass cases. I have always felt this was because sometimes the plating baths used to apply the nickel might not be up to snuff and might damage the underlying brass.

 

For that reason, I no longer load nickel plated cases in any caliber except 38 Special. I only still load them in 38 Special because I still have a bucketfull that I have collected over the last 30 years or so. But I don't shoot 38 Sp in CAS anyway, so it is a moot issue for me.

 

As for split brass and extraction, every once in a blue moon I will experience a split case in a revolver. I have never had any trouble popping them right out with the extractor rod, no other more drastic means was necessary.

 

I shoot 44-40 in all my rifles, and they do not tend to split down the middle like most straight walled cases do. They tend to only develop short splits right at the case mouth.

 

As far as I am concerned, problems ejecting split brass is a non-issue, especially since I am usually timed with a sundial anyway.

 

 

 

 

Why did a round with a split case make it into the magazine in the first place?

 

 

Cause I was too busy telling the guys at the loading table how important and smart I am and didn't see it go in the tube. :P

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I've heard to shoot nickle cases in pistols, as they are more prone to split, since a split in a revolver won't cost you any time. And to save brass cases for your rifle, where a split in brass is more likely to come out easily. Is there any truth to that? I reload them till they split. I shoot a Marlin rifle and Blackhawks with pretty light loads of Bullseye or Clays.

 

I know that nickle cases are nickle plated brass. I've got a lot more nickle cases than brass, and my brass cases are dwindling. Thanks

 

The main difference is that one is a shiney, silvery color and the other is yellow... After that anything you hear falls into the realm of Urban Legend.

 

Since you have more nickle than brass it is likely that you will have more splits with the (drum roll) nickel cases.If you want more definitive data start a couple of collection boxes on your loading bench. Every split case you encounter, toss it into the proper receptacle. This time next year compare the two and you will have a benchmark for YOUR experience.

 

Shoot those split cases at your practice range, then chunk 'um.

 

Olen

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On a toggle link rifle (Henry, 66 or 73), the cartridge in the carrier acts as the cartridge stop for the mag tube. Then end of the bullet must reach the beveled area of the carrier to make the action cycle - so the bevel pushes the next cartridge back into the mag tube so that the carrier may raise.

 

So if a case is cracked enough to let the bullet recess into the case, the bullet that is mostly in the mag will come back too far, not be over the beveled area and thus lock up the gun. You can catch most spilt brass when you reload - sometimes you will find it before you load, other times, as you load the bullet, you will feel the difference. Sometimes, the act of resizing will stress the case enough to make or enlarge the split. But the worst case is that sometimes the recoil and spring action of the rifle will recess the bullet and you may not know until the action locks up. It cost me 8 misses (and perhaps the win) at a regional once.

 

And since the rate of splits for nickle is about three times that of the brass, some will not use nickle cases in their rifle.

 

Since the Marlin and 92 use a different action it is not quite as critical.

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I check all "brass" before it ever goes into the tumbler. If it's split at all it goes in the trash can. I seperate the nickle from the rest. Then I use it in lost brass side matches.........don't seem to have too many pieces of nickle any longer.

 

FWIW......I think nickle splits easier than brass.

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I've heard to shoot nickle cases in pistols, as they are more prone to split, since a split in a revolver won't cost you any time. And to save brass cases for your rifle, where a split in brass is more likely to come out easily. Is there any truth to that? I reload them till they split. I shoot a Marlin rifle and Blackhawks with pretty light loads of Bullseye or Clays.

 

I know that nickle cases are nickle plated brass. I've got a lot more nickle cases than brass, and my brass cases are dwindling. Thanks

 

 

Nickle does spit easier than brass, so you are on the right track. Since you do load them til they split suggest you invest in a case gauge. After seeing too many out of battery discharges in rifles, I started checking every single round I load with a case gauge. They cost just a bit over $10 and to save you eyes or the ROs eyes that is cheap. The failure mode is for the shooter to try to load a round into the chamber that will not load properly and starts racking his lever to get it in. The firing pin then overcomes the spring and goes forward in the bolt hard enough to set of the primer, with the round still not in the chamber and the action partially or completely open. It happens.

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Cause I was too busy telling the guys at the loading table how important and smart I am and didn't see it go in the tube. :P

 

Terrific answer! I have sometimes found myself in the same position.

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When I was in my "high power magnum" phase I found that the life of the nickled cases was much shorter than the brass. BUT this was firing full or nearly full cases of W296.

I can't believe that you would notice any difference between nickle and brass shooting our low pressure SASS rounds.

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When I was in my "high power magnum" phase I found that the life of the nickled cases was much shorter than the brass. BUT this was firing full or nearly full cases of W296.

I can't believe that you would notice any difference between nickle and brass shooting our low pressure SASS rounds.

I believe it is not the pressure but the continual flaring and crimping that is worse for nickle than brass.

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The main difference is that one is a shiney, silvery color and the other is yellow... After that anything you hear falls into the realm of Urban Legend.

 

Since you have more nickle than brass it is likely that you will have more splits with the (drum roll) nickel cases.If you want more definitive data start a couple of collection boxes on your loading bench. Every split case you encounter, toss it into the proper receptacle. This time next year compare the two and you will have a benchmark for YOUR experience.

 

Then my experience is urban legend. Don't need boxes of worthless brass sitting on the bench to know that four of five cases I discarded due to splits were nickel plated... and that's a conservative guess. I say "were" because I throw 'em away on sight now.

 

If you use them inspect them well.

 

Check post #12 in this thread.

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I use brass in my rifle and nickle in my pistol. On average with 60 pieces of each I have 1/3 to 1/2 of a case per 60 split with brass and 3 or 4 with nickel loaded about the same number of times.

If you shoot a toggle link rifle be careful of split cases as they will allow the bullet to drop down into the case and lock her down with however many unfired rounds you have in the magazine. That is another benefit of the Spur short stroked Marlin, it will feed empty cases.

As to the toggle link firing out of battery, it will only happen if the lever safety is defeated. It can happen. We saw a 73 destroyed last sunday by a discharge out of battery. No harm to the shooter, but could not even chamber a round into the chamber manually.

Your mileage may vary.

 

McKenzie

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I started reloading about 3 years ago. I had saved my "brass" (meaning both brass & nickle) from the commercially reloaded rounds I used when I first started CAS. All the cases had been loaded at least twice by the time I got them. Reloaded the brass ones for first couple of months, then decided to use the nickle until they were gone, then change over to all brass. Even bought some Starline, thinking they would be the best, when I got to them.

 

I've been reloading that same thousand, or so, nickle ever since, and do occasionally find split cases; however, they are running less than 1%. At this rate, it's gonna be a long time before I switch over to the brass.

 

I, too, think the primary cause of the splitting is the flaring & crimping process, over and over. I flare my cases very minimally, just enuff that the bullet sits atop the case and doesn't shave when I seat the bullet. BTW, I am shooting .38 spcl., with upper middle of recommended powder range and use the same rounds in pistols and rifle. I also inspect every round as I move it from the press to the cartridge boxes. Haven't had a problem with bullets pushing back into case, failing to eject from rifle ('66, '73, '92 or Marlin), or hanging in pistols.

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The only advantage of nickle over brass is they won't cause verdigris (leather & brass turning green) if left in the belt loops of a gun belt. And nickle looks purtier. Since new nickle cases cost more than & doesn't last quite as long as brass cases & I'm somewhat of a tightwad I use nickle only in my sixguns so I won't lose it & use the brass cased ammo in my rifle.

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I've been reloading for years but only got a tumbler after I started shooting cowboy. Until then my brass was either nickel or grungy. The words "shiny" and "brass" weren't acquainted. Looking a little better now.

 

Maybe it's luck of the draw but I've noticed that the nickel cases tend to split more than the plain brass cases. I guess they are the high maintenance "princesses" of brass cases or something.

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Here’s what I know for a fact. I shot 44’s for 6 years and had only a couple split and they were nickel. I guess the thicker walls just don’t get stretched much with light CAS loads. I went to 38’s and bought all my brass new at the same time…..nickel for the pistol and brass for the rifle because what I heard plus I do it to “color code” the ammo to make it easy for the wife.

 

In 2.5 years I have had 10 times as many split cases with 38’s compared to the 44’s. I just shoot my brass until they get lost or split…unless it’s a big match and then it’s all new. But, I would guess I throw away 5 nickel to 1 brass 38 case. Last, the rifle rounds are loaded to SASS max….the pistols are loaded mid range from the Hodgdon’s cowboy load data and the nickel’s still split at a much higher rate with less pressure.

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Guest jeweler jim

Sometimes it's more than splits or cracks at the mouth of the case. Can completely split all the way around. Cost my son something like seven misses on one stage and we were lucky enough to get the top portion out of the rifle chamber without major difficulty so we could finish the match with that rifle. Had me glue it to his "Wood."

 

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo264/jimschad/000_0044.jpg

 

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo264/jimschad/000_0045.jpg

 

So I guess my idea that I'd lose less brass because it's easier to find in the grass if it's nickel needs to be rethought.

 

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I am sure most of you have reloaded many, many more rounds than I have since I just started about a year ago. The one split case I have encountered so far was a nickel case I found while seperating the .38 sp cases from the tumbling media using a spinning basket. I heard a distinctly different "ring" and that made me look through the cases until I found it.

 

I try to visually inspect each handful of cases after tumbling, right before I apply a little case lube.

 

I also check every loaded case using a Dillon case gauge as I move them from the reloader output bin into the "CAS" ammo box.

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jeweler jim:

 

Your photos show what is known as Case Head Separation. That is not the same as the classical definition of split brass. Split brass normally refers to a split running the length of the case.

 

Case Head Separation can be a dangerous situation. It is usually a sign of over pressure. Please check your loads against a loading manual. Even if your loads are within normal pressures you should not be getting Case Head Separation. Case Head Separation often starts as a ring or 'halo' around the case near the base. Any cases showing signs of incipient Case Head Separation should be discarded.

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Guest jeweler jim

jeweler jim:

 

Your photos show what is known as Case Head Separation. That is not the same as the classical definition of split brass. Split brass normally refers to a split running the length of the case.

 

Case Head Separation can be a dangerous situation. It is usually a sign of over pressure. Please check your loads against a loading manual. Even if your loads are within normal pressures you should not be getting Case Head Separation. Case Head Separation often starts as a ring or 'halo' around the case near the base. Any cases showing signs of incipient Case Head Separation should be discarded.

For them that might be new to reloading the tip about the halo or ring is a great tip to be aware of and I have never found it on any but the nickel cases. On another thread the topic of mag vs. reg. primers was being kicked around with the idea that it has no appreciable effect on velocity, but what was not noted is that it can sometimes have a major difference on pressures which can sometimes explain the halo thing. Always best to stay within the recipes in the manuals.

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Sometimes it's more than splits or cracks at the mouth of the case. Can completely split all the way around. Cost my son something like seven misses on one stage and we were lucky enough to get the top portion out of the rifle chamber without major difficulty so we could finish the match with that rifle. Had me glue it to his "Wood."

 

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo264/jimschad/000_0044.jpg

 

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo264/jimschad/000_0045.jpg

 

So I guess my idea that I'd lose less brass because it's easier to find in the grass if it's nickel needs to be rethought.

 

Wow, if that is your brass pictured, you have a major reloading problem. Do you consider your loads at the bottom, middle or top of the recommended loads? That split is likely from a load that is over pressure.

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Wow, if that is your brass pictured, you have a major reloading problem.

 

Maybe. But more likely just a case that had been loaded many times. See the last two sentences of Driftwood's post.

 

In the process of firing and resizing over and over the case material gradually moves forward toward the case mouth and the case becomes thinner and thinner toward the base... a part of the case which also never gets resized.

 

Although case head separation can be a sign of over pressure, it isn't any more of a definitive sign than a case that's split from mouth to base.

 

ETA: I've shot with folks that freely admit that they use brass until it fails and that, "A little split at the case mouth doesn't matter, just load it again."

 

You never know who's brass you're getting back at the ULT. Check it before you load it.

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I got a 1/2 case separation once. It occurred in my Ruger using typical cowboy loads.

 

The upper half of the case separated from the lower half which extracted normally from the cylinder.

 

Upon further inspection of the cases I was using, it was one of those cases that the manufacturer applies a 'ring' around the brass and in this case, must have applied it deep enough to leave the brass VERY THIN at that location. Anyhow, that's what I figured, based on the brass and the location of the separation.

 

PLUS, it had been reloaded several times.

 

I've fired muliti 000's of rounds and this has only happened once with me.

 

As with alot of things we do.....mileage varies.

 

 

..........Widder

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Then my experience is urban legend. Don't need boxes of worthless brass sitting on the bench to know that four of five cases I discarded due to splits were nickel plated... and that's a conservative guess. I say "were" because I throw 'em away on sight now.

 

If you use them inspect them well.

 

Check post #12 in this thread.

No, I don't think your experience is an urban legend. It is exactly what you said it was, "a conservative guess".

 

On the other hand, the post from the HighRoad that you cite IS very nearly a classic case of an urban legend. The author sets himself up as an expert, cites a thirty year old experiment that he devised, creates a plausible test protocol, asserts, with authority that he has proved his case, all supported with "if I recall".

 

I think your experience is the more accurate one.

 

Olen

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I shoot 45 LC for both rifle and pistol and the only reason I use nickel for my cases is that when I was looking, all the suppliers were out of brass, but Midway had 1000 round lots of Remington nickel cases, so that's what I started out with. I also figured the following....

I believe it is not the pressure but the continual flaring and crimping that is worse for nickle than brass.

and have adjusted my dies accordingly. I shoot black powder and have had only a few split cases after several reloads thus far. Those cases have been pitched as soon as they have been detected so as not to cause a problem down the line. Smithy.

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