Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 The FBI used to teach a style of hip shooting for close work and when properly done and a lot of practice, it can be effective. Still, it is not the most accurate way to shoot and done wrong, bad things can happen. Sadly, some folks try it with quick draw, which can and has led to tears. As others have pointed out, SASS has gotten so large and attracted so many inexperienced shooters that it is sometimes hard to know who is safe and who is not. If you plan to do this at a match I would tell the RO beforehand and be as careful as possible so that folks don't think you are dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninjandrew Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 I would want the fast draw mods, ultimately. Thats how Im thinking for the time being anyway. But Ill get to know the gun better first before I do anything. Someday Id like to be able to fast draw with my hands more or less relaxed at my sides, rather than millimeters from the grip and hammer. Seems more realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Called shooting Outlaw. lotta folks doing it. Yup - it is a hoot!! Love it! GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Two things: Smokeout In The Hills, the Ky/Tn state blackpowder match also recognises Outlaw as a stand alone category. Shooting the Outlaw category does not mean "fast draw" AT ALL and it also doesn't mean pulling the trigger from directly above the holster. It means that you don't bring the gun to a level where you use the sights. It is fun, can be done safely, and ought to be a S.A.S.S. recognised category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 I shoot duelist. There is not a thing in the world different about my DRAW or cocking sequence when shooting outlaw or using the sights, nor should there be. Ya don't cock the gun until it is within 45 degrees of horizontal, and the ONLY difference is ya stop short when the gun is raised, leveling it at some place below line of sight. For me, that works out to the barrel at just about the same height as the bottom of my shirt pocket, shooting hand thrust forward in front of me. NOBODY I know is shooting Outlaw "fast draw" style, with the gun held close to the mouth of the holster in the manner Bob Munden does in his fast draw demos. AS with ANY shooting style, (gunfighter would be a fair comparison), there is a certain amount of common sense and a learning curve to Outlaw that prevails. Ya wanna know the truth, ANYBODY can point a flashlight or laser pointer, turn it on and have the light appear pretty durn close to a SASS-sized target the very first time they try. What needs to happen to shoot Outlaw successfully is to simply UNLEARN the notion we have to rely on the sights. We ain't trying to split playing cards, nor to run a fast draw match, we're simply shooting very similar to how we always do, except witout using the sights. All the chicken little reaction is baloney. Outlaw need not be any more hazardous than any other SASS shooting style. I would recommend ANYBODY who wants to see how it works TRY it at a practice range, off the clock, and take their time. Run a box or two of shells through the pistol and the shotgun, and see if ya ain't having fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucson Jim Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 The FBI used to teach a style of hip shooting for close work See also the video I posted - it's a complete tutorial from the FBI circa 1961. That's the system Jelly Bryce codified and it's probably the most advanced form of hip-shooting available, and I suspect the safest. The techniques shown could be imported into SASS no problem. Note that they try and show period single-action revolver usage and fail miserably - stupidest part of the whole thing . Almost forgot. At one point Bill Jordan improved on the Bryce system with a two-handed version of a low hold. I don't know of any videos showing it but a google image search on: "bill jordan" turret ...turned up at least a decent still image: http://cdn3.iofferphoto.com/img/item/185/408/678/rare-1976-ad-bill-jordan-gun-fighter-aa6e5.JPG You might want to give that a try. Looks like a "low Iscoceles" of some sort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninjandrew Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Adirondack: Is Outlaw similar to the low hold shooting in the FBI video Tucson posted here? Thats basically what Ive been imagining. I got to shoot a Vaquero .357 today. The grips were too small and the bottom of my hand had nothing to grab. Ive heard the Bisley models remedy this, but they also have a small hammer, which Im not fond of. Is there a website that might sell grips longer than the grip frame? I havent had any luck with ones Ive looked at yet. A similar gun perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmaiden Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Shooting outlaw is just as safe as shooting with sites. Everything is the same, you just don't use the sites. If you watch Tn. Tombstone on the outlaw web site, you will see how safe it is. If I didn't love shooting duelist so much, I would shoot outlaw all of the time. That darned ole T-Bone don't count-he's a FREAK! He ain't human. His head is big enough already! I.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 You keep sayin' "fast draw"... We, regardless of shooting category, DON'T do fast draw. I suggest you download a copy of the Shooter's Handbook. "Fast Draw" is often shot where the revolver never moves but inches from the holster... That will get you DQ'd (disqualified) as unsafe gun handling in a hurry at our matches... [/font]]13. A shooter shall not cock any revolver until the firearm is pointed safely down range. While on the firing line, any discharge of any firearm impacting within ten-feet of the shooter is unsafe and will result in disqualification from the stage or, if less than five feet, from the match. Any discharge away from the actual firing line shall result in a Match Disqualification.... 20. SASS matches are not fast draw competitions. Any unsafe gun handling in the course of a draw from the holster or any "fanning" will result in the shooter's disqualification from that stage. And from the Range Operations Manual: 13. Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop from five to ten feet from the shooter, while on the firing line, will result in a Stage Disqualification. Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop less than five feet from the shooter while on the firing line, any discharge at the loading or unloading areas, any discharge off the firing line, or any discharge that is deemed unsafe will result in a Match Disqualification.Note: Match directors have the latitude to place props so shooters must negotiate them. In doing so, Match Directors may declare props expendable or shootable without penalty. When drawing a revolver from its holster, the revolver shall not be cocked until it is at a 45° angle down range. (Minor Safety Violation) These are generally intrepeted to mean the arm is somewhat extended in front of the body, not held next to the hip as seen in "Fast Draw" competitions. Now, the rude, suspicious, ex-cop in me tells me, my troll radar is pinging, rather loudly... anyone that might be legitimately interested in this game would probably not be using the alias "ninja-" anything. I could be wrong, I have been before. But, I gotta tell ya, Shootin' outlaw is safe... for competent gun handlers. I would recommend you plan on shootin' "regular" like for a few years... take a couple of the gun handling courses offered specifically for Cowboy Action Shooting, and decide if the sport is even your cup of tea before you start thinking about "Outlaw." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninjandrew Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Hey, like I said. I plan on getting proficient at shooting regular, before getting into any kind of hip shooting. To be honest, I was figuring a couple years at least, just like you said. ninjandrew is the alias I use in every forum, from firearms, to martial arts, to general fitness, to cycling, to whatever. I just dont want to risk using a bunch of forum specific aliases and forgetting one. Funny you mention it though, Ive been trying to come up with something else anyway. Also, I dont have the permissions to edit my profile, so... When I started this thread I just wanted to know about real ammo in fast draw, is it done/is it feasible. What I mentioned a couple posts ago about fast draw and hands at the sides is just my own idea. Unless that exists somewhere too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucson Jim Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 If you look at some of the Bob Munden videos on youtube you'll see instances where his holster has a curved steel bullet deflector plate below it. That's for when he shoots real ammo in fast-draw, which is a damned dangerous thing to do even if you're Bob Munden!!! The various "cowboy fastdraw" competitions involve the use of wax bullets, not real ones, and most of Bob's shooting is with wax as well. SASS is about shooting with real ammo. The fast-draw ban is one of the most sane rules SASS has. The FBI's old doctrine on "hip shooting" was designed for safety, speed and as much accuracy as hip-shooting offers. That's the best starting point, and then adapt that to your needs and the SA revolver instead of DA... Do you know about the old "Leatherslap" competitions of the mid-to-late 1950s in Southern California? That was the first time anybody did shooting competitions with real ammo, real carry holsters in competitions that tried to simulate combat conditions. Competitors were invited, they didn't just show up. The gear and rules weren't set up properly yet and it was damned dangerous. The guys involved in that were heros every one - they risked knees and toes to learn things that we still use - not just in sports like SASS, IDPA, IPSC and the rest, but on the street as well. They're the group that ultimately taught us to use two-handed holds and the sights. Jack Weaver figured it out first, the rest refined it once they got tired of Jack winning every time and Jeff Cooper ultimately documented it all in the book "The Modern Technique Of The Pistol". The others who helped include Bob Munden (among the youngest of the group), Thell Reed (now a the stunt/combat coordinator in films such as the recent "3:10 To Yuma" remake), James Hogue (the gripmaker), many more. Pushing the envelope that hard is dangerous and a choice was made long ago not to do so in SASS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazoo City Gal Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 You guys are giving me a headache! Here ya go. Look like fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 One of our better shooters frequently has mentioned the ability to have three bullets on the target by full extension AND I really believe him BUT Ill bet he sees sights for the first shot. From the beep I do not believe that the difference between .35 and .8 would save the faster mans life and he is even counting on a lot of luck for a good shot at anything beyond point blank range. Those who play games that are evenly remotely similar to any realistic combat situation do not use these techniques. What would be the purpose of firing from below sight level if not for faster draw and deliver times?? Is that not what anyone following this post, including brand new shooters, would have read in the earlier statements concerning the speed prowess of Outlaw shooters? This is not bating, it is a simple fact that a first time SASS shooter can come to a match this Saturday, see someone doing this and try to emulate it at the next Saturdays match? He does not understand it but assumes that since it is legal and we preach so much safety, well it must be safe! There is no training or approval process in place for any shooting style or technique, even the Gunfighter exception was dropped, to my knowledge. As I said before, it would be interesting to study some good quality match video of shooters using this style and see what is really happening in slow-mo. I would surely have to have slow-mo because my old eyes are not fast enuff to follow that non-fast draw action anymore. The few times I have seen this shooting style written into some of the older match stages, regardless of gun used, the posse marshal would give a demonstration. Since the revolver is the primary gun considered in this controversy, lets go there. It was always shown as being fired with two hands and at chest level with the elbows clamped and the revolver at body center. Guess what, it was a slow technique but it had a certain amount of safety built in. There is an old saying, if it waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then dawnt tell me it aint a back door attempt at fast draw under a different guise! There are many things that could be done, in the name of fun, but live ammo under the stress of the clock is no place for testing new shooting techniques that are open to all comers and I am surprised that SASS allows this as an acceptable process for gaining acceptance. When we have that first bad experience, it will be a shooter who is trying to go faster and has a hammer glitch while still in the holster,, but he wasnt trying to do fast draw. But then everbody has an opinion, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tn Tombstone Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Yazoo City Gal, give it up, arguing on this forum is like wrestling with a pig. At some point you have to realize that all you are going to do is get dirty and the pig enjoys it. We know what it takes to shoot Outlaw, it has nothing to do with luck, however it does require muscle memory. SASS is not an accuracy contest, hip shooting is not fast draw, and everything else on this topic from the standard shooters is speculation or maybe jealousy. (I did hit a clay bird in a stand from about 20 yards one time, now that was luck.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snydly Whiplash, SASS #16258 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Just finished shooting Outlaw in Casper,Wy. Been shooting FCD for years but thought I would try outlaw for real. Have done it for fun on a few stages over the years, but this time shot the whole match "Outlaw". Didn't shoot over the burm or hurt anyone. whew! Not that hard if you concentrate and pay attention to what you are doing and think it through before you begin each stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hey, like I said. I plan on getting proficient at shooting regular, before getting into any kind of hip shooting. To be honest, I was figuring a couple years at least, just like you said. ninjandrew is the alias I use in every forum, from firearms, to martial arts, to general fitness, to cycling, to whatever. I just dont want to risk using a bunch of forum specific aliases and forgetting one. Funny you mention it though, Ive been trying to come up with something else anyway. Also, I dont have the permissions to edit my profile, so... When I started this thread I just wanted to know about real ammo in fast draw, is it done/is it feasible. What I mentioned a couple posts ago about fast draw and hands at the sides is just my own idea. Unless that exists somewhere too. Thank you for the straight-forward, concise answer to my concern. I hope you follow thru and give this sport a try. It's been described as the most fun you can have with clothes (costume?) on. That's not quite true... mounted cowboy shooting is that and more. But for most of us, this is far more feasible. And while single action shooting is deceptively simple, getting the various components to come together successfully is a LOT tougher than it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninjandrew Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks for the video Yazoo, that was great. I tend to have difficulty finding videos like that. Tuscon, very interesting. I wouldnt mind picking up a copy of that book. Just to correct something I said earlier, when I said "When I started this thread I just wanted to know about real ammo in fast draw" I meant hip shooting in general, not fast draw. We just sort of ended up talking about that... Griff, I'd like to follow through one of these days, but Ill have to practice for awhile first. Until then, watching videos and this forum seem informative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKenzie River Drifter, #74138 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I did not see anyone mention that full house 44 or 45 loads are illegal in SASS. Bullet speed is limited to 1000 fps and only all lead bullets may be used. McKenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKenzie River Drifter, #74138 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Full house .44 or .45 loads are not legal in SASS. Pistol bullet speed is limited to 1000 fps and only all lead bullets are allowed. McKenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royal barnes sass #5792 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 McKenzie, Not necessarily true. I shoot full case BP .45 and .44-40 loads and they don't exceed 1000 fps. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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