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44-40/44 spec/44 mag


Charlie Whiskers

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I was thinking about this the other day while pondering the somewhat short supply of 44-40 brass.I have a 73 and several pistola's in 44-40 and was wondering since the 44-40,44spec and 44 mag all use the same bullet diameter,will they interchange into 44-40 chambered firearms?I should have specified,I'm not talking about new brass availability.

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I've seen it happen but I don't think it's recommended. Guy grabbed the wrong rifle off the rack and loaded it with 44 special loads. He struggled with the action some, hit all his targets. He reached the UL table and noticed he had picked up the wrong rifle. Brass was swelled up at the base.

I would not do it.

 

LL'

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No, the bullets are very nearly the same diameter, but the 44-40 is a "bottle-necked" case while the 44 Special and Magnums are straight walled cases. So the base part of the cartridge of the 44-40 is a little larger (.471 in ) than the 44 Special and Magnum (.457)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/44_Magnum

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester

 

The picture doesn't show the bottle neck case as well as it could.

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No, the bullets are very nearly the same diameter, but the 44-40 is a "bottle-necked" case while the 44 Special and Magnums are straight walled cases. So the base part of the cartridge of the 44-40 is a little larger (.471 in ) than the 44 Special and Magnum (.457)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/44_Magnum

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester

 

The picture doesn't show the bottle neck case as well as it could.

 

 

That's what I was thinking,but I know there's a lot of people in here that have been reloading and experimenting with reloading a lot longer than I have.Only been reloading for about 4 yrs and 99% of that's in 38/357.Just started reloading 44-40 a little over a year and a half ago.Stuck with the 44-40 brass,but it was just a thought and I knew I could ask in here;hopefully without someone replying like I was a total idiot for asking.

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The 44-40 is .427-.428 bore with some pistols having a chamber mouth as small as .425.

 

The 44 spl 44 mag bore is .429-.430 not the same

 

The 44-40 is a bottle necked cartridge that has a base the same as a .45 Colt, hence the bulged cases if you shot a .44 spl.

 

5 in 1 blanks were used in 38-40 WCF and 44-40 WCF Winchester rifles and .45 Colt, 44-40, 38-40 pistols, hence the name 5 in 1.

 

Do not do this!!!!!!!!!!

 

Big Jake

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Howdy

 

I guess I'll throw my two cents in too. Here are the SAAMI drawings for the 44 Magnum and the 44-40. 44 Special will be the same as 44 Mag, just about 1/10" shorter.

 

44 Mag Dimensions

 

44-40 Dimensions

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LOL, I just went back over to read a bit of that thread and thought maybe I should credit you with the picture.

 

Since the original question has been answered, I'll ask another one.

 

Using Driftwoods picture, the 44 spc and 45 colt have roll crimps, is the 44-40 a taper crimp?

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Nope. 44-40 brass is too thin to do a taper crimp. The brass just kind of smooshes into the crimp groove. Now to tell you the honest truth, that one is loaded with Black Powder, and my Black Powder 44-40s are the only cartridges I crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die. But if you repeat that, I will deny it.

 

In this photo, left to right the three cartridges are 44-40, 44-40 and 45 Colt. The 44-40 on the left is one of my standard Black Powder rounds crimped with the Lee Factory Crimp die. The one in the center is a Smokeless 44-40 with a roll crimp. The 45 Colt has a roll crimp too.

 

Cartridges

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Well Y'all might just try a 44 Ruskie in a 44-40 chamber. Seems as tho they chamber in my 44-40 cylinders.

 

I also hear that there are those you shoot the 44 Shorts in Matches with there 44WCF Cowboy Guns.

 

Bad idea, please don't do that.

 

 

 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that you can shoot .44spl/mag. in a .44-40 revolver if you get a second cylinder chambered for those straight walled cartridges. I've also found that many modern .44-40 guns use the same bore dimensions as the .44 spl. For example, my .44-40 Uberti '73 shoots great with big lube bullets sized to .430".

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In this photo, left to right the three cartridges are 44-40, 44-40 and 45 Colt. The 44-40 on the left is one of my standard Black Powder rounds crimped with the Lee Factory Crimp die. The one in the center is a Smokeless 44-40 with a roll crimp. The 45 Colt has a roll crimp too.

 

Cartridges

So if 45 and 44-40 are that similar can you resize 45 brass to 44-40?

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So if 45 and 44-40 are that similar can you resize 45 brass to 44-40?

 

No. .45 Colt has really thick case walls (0.012") compared to very thin case walls in the .44-40 (about 0.007). You will normally not even get the .45 Colt case mouth to enter a .44-40 resizer die - it's too big. You loose a lot of the advantages of the thin walls even if you could size it down to have a neck, without wrinkling the heavy walls of the .45 Colt case. And you loose case volume, which makes the .44-40 loading data not very useful for your mangled case. And, you will not be able to get a bullet in the thick walled neck to chamber in your .44-40. You will have added 10 thousandths to the case neck plus bullet dimension - that means the neck and bullet of the loaded round won't enter a .44-40 chamber neck area on most guns. The rims are not the same dimension, either, not in thickness nor outside diameter, leading to extraction difficulties. And, you would have to squeeze the area just ahead of the case head down from .480 to about .468 - possibly rupturing the case walls at this point. And, folks who shoot after you and look at headstamp on the picked up brass will be badly misled and could even have a disaster due to your experimentation.

 

The two cases are NOT that similar! A poor assumption.

 

It would be a BAD idea.

 

Good luck, GJ

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So if 45 and 44-40 are that similar can you resize 45 brass to 44-40?

 

Howdy Again

 

Yeah, they are not all that similar. Study the drawings.

 

 

45 Colt Dimensions

 

44-40 Dimensions

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Firing the wrong cartridge in a revolver is an easy task but may not be safe.

 

A few years ago i loaded 44 special rounds in my 45 colt Vaquero.

 

I did not notice any thing strange until i got to the unloading table.

 

Of the five empties one had a split neck while all were bulged.

 

I dont recommend it.

 

Good luck.

 

elfego :FlagAm:

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The 44-40 is .427-.428 bore with some pistols having a chamber mouth as small as .425.

 

The 44 spl 44 mag bore is .429-.430 not the same

 

The 44-40 is a bottle necked cartridge that has a base the same as a .45 Colt, hence the bulged cases if you shot a .44 spl.

 

5 in 1 blanks were used in 38-40 WCF and 44-40 WCF Winchester rifles and .45 Colt, 44-40, 38-40 pistols, hence the name 5 in 1.

 

Do not do this!!!!!!!!!!

 

Big Jake

 

Howdy, Pards,

 

There is a LOT of variation in the groove diameters of .44-40 guns. Colt's original Frontier Six Shooter (the .44-40 version of the Single Action Army) used .427" barrels, but I've miked bullets driven through the chamber throats of the original cylinders that ran as small as .4245"! While Winchester claimed to use .427" barrels, I've seen grooves as large as .434" in a relatively UNworn barrel. Probably the first barrel cut after a new cutter was installed in the rifling machine. Most modern replicas use .429-.430" barrels (except Marlin used .427" in some of their limited run .44-40 1894Cs in the 1980's). Ruger's Old Model Vaqueros used .429-.430" barrels, but the early run (#55-XXXXX thru #56-?????...even they aren't sure)had tight chambers and .425" throats! :wacko: If the chambers on those were large enough to accomodate Winchester brass (thinner at the neck) with .430" bullets, you get great accuracy...at least I do...with smokeless powders loaded closer to the 1000 ft/sec SASS maximum.

 

So far as trying to shoot .44 Magnum or .44 Special cartridges in a .44-40 chamber is concerned, as has been posted, the base diameter of the .44-40 is a LOT larger than the .44 Russian-based cartridges (.44 Spl, .44 Magnum, .44 Colt Modern). You might get away with it, but you also might rupture the case, especially after several loadings of the brass, and IMHO, the risk just isn't worth the potential damage to life and property! The only time I would attempt it would be in "the gravest extreme", where your life depended on it or some such!

 

Ride careful, Pard! God's help and comfort for the people of Japan. Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! :FlagAm:

 

Your Pard,

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Curiosity got the better of me awhile back and I slugged the barrels on all my 44/40s, I came up with bore sizes all over the

place. I thought some one else might find it interesting so here's the results

 

Ruger OM Vaquero #1 429.25

Ruger OM Vaquero #2 429.25

1875 Remington 430.0 Barrel marked Uberti

1875 Remington 428.5 Navy Arms(Uberti)older than the above gun

 

1860 Henry, Uberti 429.0

1866 Carbine,Uberti 427.0 Early production gun

1873 Rifle, Uberti 429.25

94 Marlin, 20"BBL 428.0

94 Marlin, Cowboy 428.0

AWA Lightning 429.75

Pedersoli, Lightning 428.0

 

I thought the results were interesting as all these are modern replica's, It obvious that there's no standard bore size for 44/40s in current production.

Willy B'

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So if 45 and 44-40 are that similar can you resize 45 brass to 44-40?

I resized a 45 colt to a 38-40. Just to see if it could be done. I know about wall thickness differences and everything else. Point is it was done. The case would have to be trimmed because it ended up being to long. Did I load it and shoot it? No.

The answer is yes you could resize it, but due to the case being longer it would have to be trimmed. The wall thickness will prob ally affect your loads. You would have to measure case volume of a 44-40 and then a 45 colt resized and then try to figure the right reduced load for you new case. Many people flip out about this sort of thing but it is what wild cat loaders have been doing for years. So have people with odd calibers that are no longer made.

Seeing as how you can buy the brass it is not worth the trouble.

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Many people flip out about this sort of thing but it is what wild cat loaders have been doing for years. So have people with odd calibers that are no longer made.

Wildcatters have never been successful at this particular conversion. Hmmmmph, still a bad idea. "Many people flip out" - maybe there is a good reason for many people to flip out.

 

Be safe folks - just because you can come up with a bad idea doesn't mean you ought to try it out. Go read your loading manual again. Cheese.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I resized a 45 colt to a 38-40. Just to see if it could be done. I know about wall thickness differences and everything else. Point is it was done. The case would have to be trimmed because it ended up being to long. Did I load it and shoot it? No.

The answer is yes you could resize it, but due to the case being longer it would have to be trimmed. The wall thickness will prob ally affect your loads. You would have to measure case volume of a 44-40 and then a 45 colt resized and then try to figure the right reduced load for you new case. Many people flip out about this sort of thing but it is what wild cat loaders have been doing for years. So have people with odd calibers that are no longer made.

Seeing as how you can buy the brass it is not worth the trouble.

 

Well, I had to try it too. Here is a photo of a couple of 45 Colts I ran through my RCBS 44-40 die. They did not go through easily, I had to lube the dickens out of them, and run them in carefully, just a little bit at a time, or they would have gotten stuck. They complained the whole time and I was afraid I was going to break something. The press was complaining too. I even seated and crimped a bullet too. The cartridge on the right is one of my standard 44-40 rounds, the left and center are the resized 45 Colts. Notice that, there was about 1/8" or so at the bottom that never got resized, even though I ran them all the way into the die. Even when they were run all the way into my 44-40 die, that last part was left unsized.

 

I then tried to chamber them in three of my 44-40 rifles, my Uberti Henry, my Uberti 1873, and an original Winchester Model 1892, all chambered for 44-40. They would not go in the last 1/8" and I was not about to try to force them. Clearly because of that last 1/8" of unresized brass.

 

So much for trying to resize 45 Colt to 44-40. Not a very good idea.

 

 

45 sized as 44-40

 

Regarding firing the wrong round in the wrong chamber; I have heard for years how a 44-40 accidentally fired from a 45 Colt supposedly won't hit anything, because the bullet will rattle down the bore. So one day I decided to try. One day at the end of a match I loaded five rounds of 44-40 into one of my 45 Colt revolvers. Then I fired all five of them at a pistol target set out the normal CAS distance. I hit it all five times. So much for internet wisdom on ballistics. When I reported this one day on the Ruger Forum the experts over there, who don't know much about either the 44-40 or Black Powder took me to task and said I had risked blowing up my Colt.

 

All that happened to the brass was the mouth got resized to 45 Colt chamber size, while the rest of the cartridge, which has thicker brass, stayed pretty much the same size. Nothing split and the sky did not fall down. The funny looking round in the center of this photo is the fireformed 44-40/45 Colt. On the left is a regular 45 Colt and on the right is a regular 44-40.

 

44-40 shot as 45 Colt

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Regarding firing the wrong round in the wrong chamber; I have heard for years how a 44-40 accidentally fired from a 45 Colt supposedly won't hit anything, because the bullet will rattle down the bore. So one day I decided to try. One day at the end of a match I loaded five rounds of 44-40 into one of my 45 Colt revolvers. Then I fired all five of them at a pistol target set out the normal CAS distance. I hit it all five times. So much for internet wisdom on ballistics. When I reported this one day on the Ruger Forum the experts over there, who don't know much about either the 44-40 or Black Powder took me to task and said I had risked blowing up my Colt.

 

All that happened to the brass was the mouth got resized to 45 Colt chamber size, while the rest of the cartridge, which has thicker brass, stayed pretty much the same size. Nothing split and the sky did not fall down.

 

Yep, sorry to say I have shot more than one cylinder of .44-40 (BP) rounds through my 45 Colt revolvers, in matches. Almost all the shots hit steel. Nothing bad happened. Velocity did not even seem that slow. Cases looked like DJ's cases, with an occasional split. Most of the rest sized back down to normal shape just fine. For some reason, usually on those stages my .44-40 rifle didn't want to load any rounds, and of course, the reason turned out to be .45 Colt loads in the mag tube. I have since learned to segregate loads in my loading strip, always placing rifle rounds in the same position.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Howdy Again

 

Yeah, they are not all that similar. Study the drawings.

 

 

45 Colt Dimensions

 

44-40 Dimensions

Only looked at your picture, they sure look pretty close and I know people resize and or fireform brass. I don't have either of those calibers so I was just curious, apparently you were really curious too.

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Sounds like you need one of these, GJ.

 

Loading Block

Yep, got two like that, just not labeled. Perhaps I could carve notches in the rifle side - I'm not very lethal with the revolvers. :lol:

Believe they came from a "fine purveyor of strange little cartridges", if I remember right.

 

GJ

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Howdy, again, Pards,

Driftwood, how hard or soft were the .44-40 bullets you fired in the .45's? If they were fairly soft, and you were using a fast-burning smokeless or BP charge, the bullets probably "slugged up" to fit the barrel. Same thing that happens when you shoot "modern" .38 Long Colt .357" bullets in the .384" (?) barrels of M1877 Colt's DA revolvers.

 

No, you won't drive tacks with it, but as you found, accuracy isn't "minute-of-range berm" either.

 

Ride easy, but stay alert! God's healing balm for the people of Japan. Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your Pard,

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Howdy, again, Pards,

Driftwood, how hard or soft were the .44-40 bullets you fired in the .45's? If they were fairly soft, and you were using a fast-burning smokeless or BP charge, the bullets probably "slugged up" to fit the barrel. Same thing that happens when you shoot "modern" .38 Long Colt .357" bullets in the .384" (?) barrels of M1877 Colt's DA revolvers.

 

No, you won't drive tacks with it, but as you found, accuracy isn't "minute-of-range berm" either.

 

Ride easy, but stay alert! God's healing balm for the people of Japan. Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your Pard,

 

Howdy Trailrider

 

They were my standard Black Powder 44-40 loads. A case full of FFg, and Mav-Dutchman .428 diameter dead soft, pure lead bullets. Maybe I will repeat the experiment some time at the range and recover the bullets. I find it hard to believe that even a dead soft pure lead bullet will bump up from .428 to .451 in a 7 1/2" barrel.

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Howdy Trailrider

 

They were my standard Black Powder 44-40 loads. A case full of FFg, and Mav-Dutchman .428 diameter dead soft, pure lead bullets. Maybe I will repeat the experiment some time at the range and recover the bullets. I find it hard to believe that even a dead soft pure lead bullet will bump up from .428 to .451 in a 7 1/2" barrel.

 

DJ,

Would be interesting to find out. I suspect that original '73 Winchester with the .434" barrel would do alright with BP and soft .430" bullets. Rounds with .434 slugs just won't chamber, but I can get respectable accuracy with jacketed.430" bullets and smokeless powder. Not SASS-legal, of course, but just as a matter of academic interest.

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