Illegal Butt?

[Black Tooth Zach]

I've been toying with the idea of adding a schuetzen style butt plate to a Winchester 66.

Would this be considered a cosmetic embellishment or a 'radical or target style' grip enhancement.

From the handbook "Period style tacks, carving, engraving, checkering, inlays, and other such embellishments

are allowed on stocks and grips provided they do not constitute any kind of radical or target

type grip enhancement."

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Sorry...but NO.

 

The "operative word" is contained in the description of the item:

"Schuetzen & Swiss target rifle buttplates"

 

STOCKS AND GRIPS

The length or style of stock may be altered or replaced (e.g., a carbine style stock may be interchanged for a rifle stock and vice-versa).

Checkering, carving, or laser engraving is allowed on fore-stocks, buttstocks, and revolver grips.

A permanently fitted, non-adjustable, lace on, or slip on recoil pad is allowed on the buttstock of rifles and shotguns.

Buttplates may be changed to a buttplate style that was generally available from the original manufacturer.

A piece of leather or similar natural material may be attached to the buttplate or butt stock.

Grips or stocks of simulated or natural materials are acceptable provided they are not customized to constitute a target grip or stock. That is, they must be of the same basic shape as grips or stocks found on original firearms.

SHB p.5

[Badlands Beady]

Saw the title of this thread and immediately thought of the thread where someone's worrying about this forum being a newbie's first contact with SASS: "Illegal Butt? Cosmetic Embellishment or Grip Enhancing."

 

Maybe it's just me.

 

 

[Fast Tracker]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I watched Rio Bravo for about the 100th time last night. Would Stumpy's (Walter Brennan) shotgun butt stock , curved outward and capped with brass, also be illegal? It would sure gain style points if you were shooting outlaw.

[Olen Rugged]

I am ashamed to admit that I thought it was another installment of "The People You See in Walmart"....

 

 

Olen

[quiet jake]

....somehow I expected Okie would be involved in this kinda question.....

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I watched Rio Bravo for about the 100th time last night. Would Stumpy's (Walter Brennan) shotgun butt stock , curved outward and capped with brass, also be illegal? It would sure gain style points if you were shooting outlaw.

 

It is referred to as "...a Double Barreled Shotgun with a crudely sawed-down stock."

(looks to me like someone took a hatchet to it)

 

Does it comply with the above-referenced restrictions? It certainly doesn't look like any kind of "target" stock.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Saw the title of this thread and immediately thought of the thread where someone's worrying about this forum being a newbie's first contact with SASS: "Illegal Butt? Cosmetic Embellishment or Grip Enhancing."

 

Maybe it's just me.

 

It's not just you...I thought about posting some pix of a few that SHOULD be "illegal" due to being a major distraction on the firing line...but I won't.

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Black Tooth,

 

I'm guessing the the buttplate would be illegal, but beyond that, I bet it would be very problematic (I have a shotgun the is a problematic) and slow due to the concave shape. It could be painful if improperly mounted in the heat of competition. The "hook" type buttplate is designed to be mounted with the strong side arm out to the side and roughly parallel to the ground. They way most shooters run a lever gun, The elbow is down to work the lever faster. The hook butt is awkward when running a lever.

 

How did I come to this conclusion? I have a '73 rifle with a curved butt and a '66 with a carbine (straighter) butt. The '66 works much better for me even thought the '73 has a smoother action.

 

That's my 2 pesos worth,

 

Reverend Chase

[Black Tooth Zach]

It is referred to as "...a Double Barreled Shotgun with a crudely sawed-down stock."

(looks to me like someone took a hatchet to it)

 

Does it comply with the above-referenced restrictions? It certainly doesn't look like any kind of "target" stock.

Thanks for finding that picture.

It looks like a beaver gnawed on that butt.

I would say that a beaver gnawed butt is not a 'target' stock.

[Black Tooth Zach]

Howdy Black Tooth,

 

I'm guessing the the buttplate would be illegal, but beyond that, I bet it would be very problematic (I have a shotgun the is a problematic) and slow due to the concave shape. It could be painful if improperly mounted in the heat of competition. The "hook" type buttplate is designed to be mounted with the strong side arm out to the side and roughly parallel to the ground. They way most shooters run a lever gun, The elbow is down to work the lever faster. The hook butt is awkward when running a lever.

 

How did I come to this conclusion? I have a '73 rifle with a curved butt and a '66 with a carbine (straighter) butt. The '66 works much better for me even thought the '73 has a smoother action.

 

That's my 2 pesos worth,

 

Reverend Chase

I have a flintlock with a supercurved 'hook' style buttplate that I really enjoy shooting (with my strong side elbow out, parallel with the ground like you describe).

 

However, I see your point that such a firing stance would actually slow you down when shooting a lever action. When firing the lever action, I have my strong side elbow tucked in working the action.

 

Just an idea I had for style points, doesn't seem like a usefull application of the schuetzen butt.

 

Not only is it an illegal butt, but it is also a dumb butt.

 

Not the first time that I've come up with a dumb butt idea.

[Calvin N. Hobbes, 17218]

I'm sorry Pale Wolf, but I flat out disagree. The Scheutzen butt plate was a standard Winchester factory option for lever guns. I don't think the Scheutzen butt plate is a purely "target" accessory...people ordered them for their lever guns for a myriad of personal reasons. I own both an 1873 and 1876 with Sheutzen butt plates. There are literally dozens and dozens of pictures of '73's, 76's, 86's, 92's, and 94's with factory installed Scheutzen butt plates in Madis' seminal work "The Winchester Book". In fact, I'd estimate that at least 10% of the hundreds of lever guns illustrated have a Scheutzen butt plate. I definitely think it fits the "same basic shapes as...stocks found on original firearms" criteria.

[el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162]

Okay, I just googled to get a look at the schuetzen style butt plates. WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT ONE? It looks as though a person could put an eye out with those prongs, or do himself a serious injury in the heat of competition.

 

 

 

Scary,

eGG

[Tn Tombstone]

PWB - my mind went the wrong way on this post too. It was the "Cosmetic Embellishment or Grip Enhancing" that sent me down the wrong path

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Heck,,, my butt taint illegal, kaint be illegal iffn ya taint got one.......

 

Cheyenne

[Matthew Duncan]

"Illegal Butt? Cosmetic Embellishment or Grip Enhancing "

 

Liposuction?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

"Illegal Butt? Cosmetic Embellishment or Grip Enhancing "

 

Liposuction?

 

...or in Cheyenne's case...implants?

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Anything that could ENHANCE my butt should be allowed!

[Buckhorn Woodie]

Thanks for finding that picture.

It looks like a beaver gnawed on that butt.

I would say that a beaver gnawed butt is not a 'target' stock.

 

 

Same thing I was thinking

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Glad that got cleared up. Initially thought ya'll were talking about J Lo

[Clyde Henry 7046]

Sorry...but NO.

 

The "operative word" is contained in the description of the item:

"Schuetzen & Swiss target rifle buttplates"

 

SHB p.5

 

 

Could you clarify this issue a bit more.

 

The reference you site about the prohibition on “target stocks” is found in the section titled “All Firearms” on page 5 of the SHB like you mentioned. Which, I take to mean it would apply to all firearms, just like it says. But, does it really apply to “All Firearms”.

 

When I read the section on long range side matches, it expressly states these types of guns are “precision rifles” directly implying that they are target guns. And, as such, they are shot as target guns.

 

So, does the “All Firearms” prohibition on target stocks apply to the long range rifles?

 

The time frame for schuetzen type rifles ran from about the 1840s to the start of WWI, when things “German” when out of style. Lots of “period” Winchesters, both lever and single shot came directly from the factory with schuetzen style butt plates. Several other contemporary America single shot rifle manufactures also offered schuetzen styled rifles. These guns are very easily documented. So, as the SHB states: “That is, they must be of the same basic shape as grips or stocks found on original firearms”. These orginal rifles came with schuetzen butt stocks. I believe this section was set up to prohibit modern type target stocks and butt plates, not the originals.

 

There is a national club dedicated to Schuetzenfest shooting: The American Single Shot Rifle Association. Lots of info can be found on there website about schuetzen shooting.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

....somehow I expected Okie would be involved in this kinda question.....

 

Now what kinda CRACK was that?

[gabby the frog 21716]

call sass headquaters its not a speed enhancement but could be considerd cosmetic it sure woldt give any edge

 

 

gabby

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Could you clarify this issue a bit more.

 

The reference you site about the prohibition on target stocks is found in the section titled All Firearms on page 5 of the SHB like you mentioned. Which, I take to mean it would apply to all firearms, just like it says. But, does it really apply to All Firearms.

 

When I read the section on long range side matches, it expressly states these types of guns are precision rifles directly implying that they are target guns. And, as such, they are shot as target guns.

 

So, does the All Firearms prohibition on target stocks apply to the long range rifles?

 

...

 

The SASS FIREARMS COVENANTS primarily regulate equipment used in MAIN MATCH and/or TEAM competitions:

 

SASS Cowboy Action Shooting competitions are divided into three separate types of matches: main, team, and side matches. The rules regarding SASS approved firearms depend upon the type of competition in which you are participating.

SHB p.3

 

Separate rules for sidematch firearms are referenced elsewhere in the SHB (pages 17-19)

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

call sass headquaters its not a speed enhancement but could be considerd cosmetic it sure woldt give any edge

 

The inquiry has been forwarded to the RO Committee for confirmation.

[Snakebite]

I'm sorry Pale Wolf, but I flat out disagree. The Scheutzen butt plate was a standard Winchester factory option for lever guns. I don't think the Scheutzen butt plate is a purely "target" accessory...people ordered them for their lever guns for a myriad of personal reasons. I own both an 1873 and 1876 with Sheutzen butt plates. There are literally dozens and dozens of pictures of '73's, 76's, 86's, 92's, and 94's with factory installed Scheutzen butt plates in Madis' seminal work "The Winchester Book". In fact, I'd estimate that at least 10% of the hundreds of lever guns illustrated have a Scheutzen butt plate. I definitely think it fits the "same basic shapes as...stocks found on original firearms" criteria.

 

 

I've looked throught my copy of Madis "The Winchester HandBook", and can not find any Lever gun photos with a Scheutezn style Butt plate. I also can not find even one lever action rifle that had a Scheutzen style buttplate listed as an available option, even as a special order. It is, however, listed as a Special Order item on some of their Single shot rifles, but even then they are considered "Extreamly Rare", (quote Madis). Further more, they were by no means considered "...generally available.." Generally, was the Cresent, the Carbine and the Shotgun Style buttplates.

 

It is NOT SASS LEGAL on ANY MAIN MATCH RIFLE, and is only allowed on Single Shot Rifles in the Long Range side match.

 

Snakebite

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I've looked throught my copy of Madis "The Winchester HandBook", and can not find any Lever gun photos with a Scheutezn style Butt plate. I also can not find even one lever action rifle that had a Scheutzen style buttplate listed as an available option, even as a special order. It is, however, listed as a Special Order item on some of their Single shot rifles, but even then they are considered "Extreamly Rare", (quote Madis).

Further more, they were by no means considered "...generally available.." Generally, was the Cresent, the Carbine and the Shotgun Style buttplates.

 

It is NOT SASS LEGAL on ANY MAIN MATCH RIFLE, and is only allowed on Single Shot Rifles in the Long Range side match.

 

Snakebite

 

It appears that the answer to the OP is still NO.

 

(Thanks, Snakebite)

[Clyde Henry 7046]

I've looked throught my copy of Madis "The Winchester HandBook", and can not find any Lever gun photos with a Scheutezn style Butt plate. I also can not find even one lever action rifle that had a Scheutzen style buttplate listed as an available option, even as a special order. It is, however, listed as a Special Order item on some of their Single shot rifles, but even then they are considered "Extreamly Rare", (quote Madis). Further more, they were by no means considered "...generally available.." Generally, was the Cresent, the Carbine and the Shotgun Style buttplates.

 

It is NOT SASS LEGAL on ANY MAIN MATCH RIFLE, and is only allowed on Single Shot Rifles in the Long Range side match.

 

Snakebite

 

I too reviewed my copy of Madis. The term “special order" is used throughout the text. And, for example, a shotgun butt plat was a special order item for a RIFLE. So, does that make all main match Winchesters RIFLES with other than a crescent butt plate (ie: non standard butt plate) illegal to use?

 

Also, I did find several photos showing Winchester lever actions rifles models fitted with “swiss” (a shortened up version of the schuetzen but plate) butt plates in my copy the Madis book. Also, Madis indicates that it was rare for the Winchester highwall to be fitted with a shotgun butt plate. That begs the question on the legal use of the various Browning single shots with shotgun butt plates.

 

While Madis is a great reference, it is limited to only the Winchester Brand. Many shooters shoot Marlins, which have a whole different set of factory standards and options. My “Marlin Firearms” book by Brophy shows several photos of Marlin lever actions and Ballard Rifles (made by Marlin) fitted with swiss or schuetzen butt plats. I don’t have a book reference on Sharps Rifles, but I have seen web forum discussion on Sharp schuetzen rifles, as well other brands of rifles.

 

As for other lesser produced bands of rifles, who knows what they came with or what styles were consider “standard”? Some of these gun makers were small enough that most all their guns were custom ordered. What would be the ruling where there is not “commonly available” type?

 

If a certain type of butt plate was a standard for brand “A” and not on brand “B”, does that make the use of that butt plate on brand “B” illegal for use in our matches, while still being OK brand A?

 

As for rarity of Winchester schuetzen highwalls (model 1885), please keep in mind the time frame between the time when Madis’s book was written and when the guns were built. Many of the old schuetzen rifles stripped of their actions and were converted to varmint rifle after the Schuetzenfest type shooting fell out of favor. The schuetzens are very rare today, but not so during the “period”.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I too reviewed my copy of Madis. The term “special order" is used throughout the text. And, for example, a shotgun butt plat was a special order item for a RIFLE.

So, does that make all main match Winchesters RIFLES with other than a crescent butt plate (ie: non standard butt plate) illegal to use?

...

 

NO...cutting the "crescent" buttplate off and replacing it with either a shotgun-style plate or pad is specifically allowed under the previously cited section:

STOCKS AND GRIPS

• The length or style of stock may be altered or replaced (e.g., a carbine style stock may be interchanged for a rifle stock and vice-versa).

• Checkering, carving, or laser engraving is allowed on fore-stocks, buttstocks, and revolver grips.

• A permanently fitted, non-adjustable, lace on, or slip on recoil pad is allowed on the buttstock of rifles and shotguns.

• Buttplates may be changed to a buttplate style that was generally available from the original manufacturer.

• A piece of leather or similar natural material may be attached to the buttplate or butt stock.

SHB p.5

[Clyde Henry 7046]

NO...cutting the "crescent" buttplate off and replacing it with either a shotgun-style plate or pad is specifically allowed under the previously cited section:

SHB p.5

 

 

Agreed. And the swiss and schuetzen were “generally available from the manufacturer”. They are nothing more than oversized crescent butt plates.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Agreed. And the swiss and schuetzen were generally available from the manufacturer. They are nothing more than oversized crescent butt plates.

 

The origin of that style of buttplate was for muzzle-loader single-shot TARGET shooting.

It is THAT (as noted in post #2 and subsequent consensus of opinion of the RO Committee) that precludes installation of that style of buttplate on a MAIN MATCH rifle.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Oy!!!