John Boy Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Loaded my 1st original gunpowder 22LR reload this afternoon! * The only CH4D seating die and shell holder left in the US came today. Ran to the reloading room with it * Pulled a Wolf bullet. * Set up the Lee Universal Expander die with the small plug on the bottom. Put a small bell on one of the new empty primed cases. * Put 4.5gr of the 4F screened fines in the case * Carefully adjusted the CH4D die - lowered the ram and ... Bingo! The 1st of Many to Come when the MOS 2 cavity mould arrives cut to the original UMC 40gr bullet Gonna say, no muss, no fuss. The CH4D, with shell holder, and the Lee Universal make the process very simple. Better yet, didn't have to do any custom die/shell holder creations. Them 22's sure are little though How Sweet It Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 will you be mixing your own priming compound(slurry) and spinning it into the rim? I recall reading about a chap in a 1930s magazine article that said he got about 3 or 4 reloads per case till the need to index in the chamber to have a fress bit of rim to br hit with the pin became a hassle but he was not casting the needed heeled slugs just using .22 round lead balls do you think casting those heeled slugs will be a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 will you be mixing your own priming compound(slurry) and spinning it into the rim? do you think casting those heeled slugs will be a problem? Doc, I bought empty already primed cases. To my knowledge, there are none left in the US. As for the heeled bullets, don't anticipate any casting problems. Yes swagging would be the best way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 "Swaggin"??? One of those too frequent cases where a cowboy doubling the consonant causes the word to lose meaning. HAR!! Hey JB do ya swagger after SWAGING. OOPS, Firefox doesn't like swaging either. Wow. I kain't grok any other way to spell it. I just know it fer shure ain't swagging. I think I know what it means to swage something. But is swag even a word. I think it might be swabbie for loot.?? :unsure: :rolleyes: What is the purpose of the project? Why would these rounds be preferable to low pressure smokeless rounds like CB or BB caps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Just information. .22 caliber heeled bullets are available from North American Arms. They have them for their mini BP .22. You'll find them near the bottom of this page. http://www.naaminis.com/naac&b.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 Thanks Cliff, I visited this website before and decided to pull a few Wolf Extra Match heads for the test of the dies until the Mos mold comes that is cut to the old UMC bullet in the 1800's Dog, black powder 22LR rounds are not low pressure. Original gunpowder 22LR rounds are not manufactured today as are many other BP rounds. Add, the availability to shoot these 22LR rounds in BP rifles of the 1800's, for original gunpowder shooters is the 'project'. Appears that 22LR Stevens - Ballards - Marlins - HiWalls - Maynards are not single shot firearms in your safe and you are not a black powder shooter. So I can understand your lack of knowledge for 'the purpose of the project'! BTW Dog, reading your goofy post, if I was you I'd change the brand of the cheap mouth wash your drinking. It appears to have affected your gene pool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Hooker Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 ..... But is swag even a word. I think it might be swabbie for loot.?? .... Not swabbie; supposedly an abbreviation from police/court reports- "Stolen With A Gun". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Seems like another answer to a non problem. Also, <LI>Swag, a type of window valance, often in combination with a full curtain underneath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drover Dan, SASS #47291 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Also; S.W.A.G., Scientific Wild A$$ Guess. Sorry. Couldn't help myself. Drover Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 You guys are a tough crowd! One misspelled word and the steam rollers from Coast to Coast are flattening me out like a pancake. Hey, all in good fun and the stratified squamous epithelium, composed of proliferating basal and differentiated suprabasal keratinocytes ... my epidermis is Rockwell hardened! Now, anyone want to discuss 22LR cases loaded with original gunpowder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Yes I would. I am trying to understand why they would be needed. Can the firearms mentioned not be fired safely with CB or BB caps or even shorts? If there are significant numbers of these antiques that truly require BP rounds then it would seem to be a niche market opportunity for someone. I still cannot figger out why Firefox doesn't like swaging for a spelling. Looks right to me, whereas swagging does not but Firefox likes that speeling. Hmmm... Swage-ing. Ah-ha! it does not like swage itself. A system fault. Swage-ing is the making of projectiles with a press like Corbin sells is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 Dog, let me try it again for you ... * A 40gr 22LR bullet is not a short range plinker (25yds and under) like the shorts-CB and BB rounds. A 22LR will group very nicely at 100yds and a shooter with good eyes can do the same at 150yds * There are no 22 caliber rounds on today's market charged with black powder * The project as you call it is to, create a 22LR round that can used for any of the NRA matches and for fun that: - will be shot as a black powder reload - will have a 40gr bullet of the original UMC factory round charged with black powder In summary, if you are not a original gunpowder enthusiast, it may be hard for you to understand that there are such shooters that enjoy shooting rounds that pre-date 1900 and are not available over the counter today, such as other BP rounds like the 32s', 38s' 40s', 43s', 45s' and 50s' in pre 1900 firearms such as those that I previously mentioned to you And the bottom line is ... Because I and others want to do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 JB...you are amazing The spirit of the old west still lives. What a trip to be able to shoot .22 LR with BP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Ok and aha now I think I get it. Long range with a heavy pill. Kewl as the kids say. Shorts and less need not apply. Sorry to be so dense. Seems to me some outfit should start offering these, as 99% of folks are not gonna want to go to the trouble you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 Thanks Sage, I'm not alone in the 'Resurrection Venture'! My good friend, John Kort (w44wcf) is a devoted old loaded ammunition historian. He is the Instigator! He dissected some original UMC 22LR rounds, analyzed them, expertly cobbled together a way to make reloads using a few expensive UMC bullets, put them in his Marlin and off to the range to shoot some very nice groups. So, I said ... Hey,Why Not? Because BP rounds are my passion and several other BP guys said Why Not also. Many of us reload 25 - 50 caliber BP reloads for our rifles but ... in modern times, no one else except us will have shot 22LR original powder rounds that I know of! Hoping more black powder shooters will join in on the Venture in the future The Venture Begins: * Found a ammo supplier website that was selling in a box, 5000 (yes 5,000) new empty primed 22LR brass. Ordered a box and so did some other fellas. The last of the only 5 boxes in the USofA are now in the hands of the other 4 fellas * John Kort did a schematic drawing of the original 40gr UMC bullet. Got in contact with David Mos who agreed to cut single or double cavity molds if we could get a minimum order together. Done deal ... I will have a 2x cavity mold in approximately 3 - 5 weeks. These Mos molds will be the among the very few 22LR molds ever made and the only ones based on an original bullet of the era. In the meantime, pulling Wolf heads * Next search was to find a seating die or a blank that could be reamed to 22LR. Called Dave Davidson, owner of CH4D. He said he made a small run of 22LR seating dies about 5 years ago. Went into the shop and told me ... I have 1 left! Bingo! It even came with a shell holder. So, I lucked out and don't have to make a custom die and shell holder ... to date, the last remaining commercial 22LR seating die and shell holder in the USofA * Dragged my Lee Universal Expander box off the shelf. Flipped the small plug then the large plug into the die. Works perfectly to expand the case mouths so no lead is stripped from the seated bullets * Powder ... have several cans of old DuPont FFFFg (when they made excellent powder) in inventory. Pulled out a 40 mesh sieve screen and commenced to collect a pound of 'fines' from 2 FFFFg cans Then made a few rounds up with the Wolf heads. That's where I'm at now. When the Mos mold arrives, will cast the UMC bullets (22 bullets are pure lead), initially reload a box or 2 and then off to the range with the chronograph and targets. Initial indications from some of the fellas also doing this Resurrection using commercially made bullets, groups at 50yds are running between 3/8 and an inch. Bore fouling is light using the fines from FFFFg. None of us have shot the BP reloads over a chronograph yet. Will be interesting to see what the SDs' and velocities are using 4.5gr of powder OK, what in Sam Hill's name am I going to do with 5000 cases? Reload and shoot them, of course! I shoot small bore lever and single shot silhouette matches, 12 gallery matches a year - 50yds offhand and 22LR range time. I also have a 1884 JM Marlin (Ballard) #3 Gallery rifle that is 90% resurrected from the grave as one of the rifles to shoot these rounds in also. It would be completed except that Ballard LLC failed to ship me a complete order - the 6 action and 1 finger lever screws were missing Bottom Line - How Sweet it Will Be shooting 22LR bullets with BP that haven't seen the light of day since the turn of the century into the 1900's! Unless some folks like w44wcf shot some UMC's from their collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 John B this is my long barrel .22LR Ballard http://gallery.me.com/windshadow#100125 The scope is an old Lyman 15x with 1/4 mil dot the gun has 32" bull barrel and is a tac driver with standard vel Eley match ammo and a shotgun with high vel ammo like CCI, I think it would do well with the real stuff be fun to try some day I have enjoyed reading about your progress in this endeavor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Doc, that's one clean nice looking Ballard. And with the Lyman and roll over cheek piece! Yours is a 'true' match rifle. The one I am putting back together is a straight stock, rebated receiver like yours and the non 'S' finger lever. It was a mess but coming around. Presume yours has the external extractor. This project one has the 2 piece cylinder extractor. It was frozen in the action and took 2 weeks of soaking to free it so I could replace it. The other match SS I use is a Stevens Favorite fitted with a vernier and a Beech foresight. For lever matches use the Henry Golden Boy fitted with a mid range vernier Suppose with the 22LR bullet deal, I'll be looking for another single shot for shooting steel. A LowWall or another Ballard like yours is rattling in my head Believe the probability of others making the BP reloads will come to be. The best that could happen would be to get a "group buy" going and have CH4D make a lot of the seating dies for stock. This die is the key to an easy reloading process and only cost me $58.00 with the shell holder. The Mos mold is $95 for the single and $125 for the double Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Thanks John B, I dated the scope to the 1920s don't know when the action left the Marlin plant the cheek piece stock makes it very pleasant to shoot and yes it has the external extractor. the blueing/browning on the bull barrel has a sort of violet cast the general look of it is what made me buy it back in the early 70s good case color still on the lever and the butt plate the action as you can see is in the white I do not know what it was when made I think it likely that it was made in the 1920s by a good smith as there are no markings on the barrel and I think the barrel may have come from another gun Your project gun sounds like a sweet one indeed good luck with the whole project I look forward to reading about it. Cheers Windy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Hooker Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 With the heeled bullet, how are you crimping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 With the heeled bullet, how are you crimping? Red, right now with the CH4D die, it is a slight roll crimp. It's not as I would like it using pulled Wolf bullets. Reason is the kinetic puller doesn't leave a very good heel (smaller than normal). Issue will be resolved with the new cast bullets. So I am holding back doing a box or so until the mold arrives. Edit: I also lightly crimped for a taper. Again not as I would like it because of the smaller heel on the pulled bullets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Hooker Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Red, right now with the CH4D die, it is a slight roll crimp. It's not as I would like it using pulled Wolf bullets. Reason is the kinetic puller doesn't leave a very good heel (smaller than normal). Issue will be resolved with the new cast bullets. So I am holding back doing a box or so until the mold arrives. Edit: I also lightly crimped for a taper. Again not as I would like it because of the smaller heel on the pulled bullets How does the bullet get past the crimping section without being deformed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 How does the bullet get past the crimping section without being deformed? Red, if I understand you, the bullet is in the seating die and the case at the neck is crimped. How? Turn the seating die down 1 - 2 turns past the original adjustment - that being just touching the seating die. There is no deformation of the bullet's ogive Without using a crimp die, another way for calibers that have a resizing die is to remove the expander plug. Then put the un-crimped round from the seating die in the resizing die, raise it to the neck area and just give the press ram a light tap or two. I do this all the time for breech seating tapered bullets that I shoot as fixed cartridge, ie. my 32-40 and 38-55s' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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