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What liability might a club have


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...to participate knowing the shooter had his drivers license taken away for health reasons.

 

There's a fella on the wire who admiitted his license was taken away because his health condition apparently would make him potentially dangerous to drive.

 

What position might a club be in knowing this and allowing the person to participate.

 

Fillmore

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It depends. I think if the pard is cooperative and fully understands his/her limits, there's no minimum threshold that automatically would deny them the ability to shoot. I say this BECAUSE we have in CAS the ability to adapt to the shooter's needs, and to shadow/supervise as much as needed to insure the shooter safely get through the stage. If Michael J Fox showed up and wanted to shoot, even with the wild, lurching tremors of his Parkinsons, I'd bet he'd be fully willing to cooperate and accept help. If that meant physically guiding his arms to keep the muzzles of the guns safe, etc. we could do that. If the shooter and the RO and/or "assigned coach" can work out a plan and do it, then go for it.

 

The shooters that worry me are those who are in denial of their declining abilities and are hard to help. In those cases, a quiet but firm PRIVATE chat might be in order, and if all else fails, they might need to be "disinvited" to participate until theya are willing to adapt/accept help. This might be more the case with dementia, etc....

 

Remember this, any NEGLIGENCE suit would turn on the concept of REASONABLENESS of any acts taken or not taken by the range/club/officials on the line. If reasonable steps were taken and the situation still went to crumbs, a fairly strong defense could be mounted.

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Hi Bro Feelmore - D!

 

I think it would depend on the health condition.

 

Say he has neuropathy in his feet but not his hands, he might not be safe to drive a common automobile. Yet, he could still shoot.

 

We need more information.

 

:wub:

 

Your Sis!

 

Thanks Sis...this "shooter" admitted to having diabetes. I know that sometimes diabetics will have bouts of unconsciousness.

 

Brother Feelmore-Dammit

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Thanks Sis...this "shooter" admitted to having diabetes. I know that sometimes diabetics will have bouts of unconsciousness.

 

Brother Feelmore-Dammit

Being a diabetic should not disqualify anyone from shooting. Heck at the average age of our shooters a goodly percent are diabetics. If an individual, usually insulin dependent, is about the slip into unconsciousness, there are usually ample warning signs before it occurs. There are no driving restrictions on a diabetic at least that I know of and I have been a diabetic for 30 plus years. If someone does pass out while driving and does have an accident (no matter the reason including diabetic coma), they will likely lose their license temporarily and they will have to have a doctors positive report that they are safe to drive to get their license back.

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Well pards, to eliminate the mystery of who we are talking about; It is I that has had diabetes for over 34 years and had my California license pulled. First off, there was NO driving incident that caused my license to be pulled, rather low blood sugars in hospital settings that caused doctors to notify the DMV which turned into a loss of license. I deal with shooting as I did with driving, both very important "mind tasking" jobs as it were. I measure my blood sugar several times before I attempt to engage such endeavors to make sure that there is no chance that I will "low" in the middle of shooting and before "driving". Not only would that be potentially dangerous for me, my scores would end up stinking something fierce! At no time do I ever point fingers blaming anyone else during a low as I know it can only be my fault for the end result of a low. Also I strive to make sure that a low does not happen in the first place! They are not fun at all and certainly something to be avoided at all costs including during shooting. I hope this has cleared things up a bit and lessened the worries about diabetes in particular. I would be the first person to call time out and pull myself out of competition if I was feeling ill and needed help. There would be no need in further shooting at that point at all. Sincerely, Smithy.

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Well pards, to eliminate the mystery of who we are talking about; It is I that has had diabetes for over 34 years and had my California license pulled. First off, there was NO driving incident that caused my license to be pulled, rather low blood sugars in hospital settings that caused doctors to notify the DMV which turned into a loss of license. I deal with shooting as I did with driving, both very important "mind tasking" jobs as it were. I measure my blood sugar several times before I attempt to engage such endeavors to make sure that there is no chance that I will "low" in the middle of shooting and before "driving". Not only would that be potentially dangerous for me, my scores would end up stinking something fierce! At no time do I ever point fingers blaming anyone else during a low as I know it can only be my fault for the end result of a low. Also I strive to make sure that a low does not happen in the first place! They are not fun at all and certainly something to be avoided at all costs including during shooting. I hope this has cleared things up a bit and lessened the worries about diabetes in particular. I would be the first person to call time out and pull myself out of competition if I was feeling ill and needed help. There would be no need in further shooting at that point at all. Sincerely, Smithy.

 

It sounds to me like you take your diabetes serious, you are aware of the facts, and act according

carry on, hold your head high, and shoot when you know yer safe

 

geeeeese

you sound like a guy that would sit out a stage if need be

and then make a responsible decision to shoot or not

a tip of my hat to you sir

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Guest Texas Jack Black

How about a person who has passed the SASS sanctioned RO class and is the RO at a match ,calls a shooter to the line and while directing him through the stage causes the shooter to make an error that caused an injury to another shooter? Is the RO liable in any way? What about those who send a shooter from the loading table to the line with a live round under the hammer?or from the unloading table with a round in the chamber and an accident happens ?where is the liability?

After the club is sued and there is not enough money in the club policy Do you become the target?

 

 

T J B

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SASS has more diabetics than you can shake a stick at.

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If there ever was a conversation that ought to be had somewhere other than the Wire, this is it.

 

 

 

As a lawyer, this is the smartest thing I have seen.

 

Don't worry about liability-if you get sued the attorney fees will eat you alive defending yourself, no matter how frivolous the suit.

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SASS has more diabetics than you can shake a stick at.

 

You mean peppermint stick don't ya!

 

Diabetes is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

 

I'm not a big fan of saying who can and can't shoot. As far as I'm concerned if someone is reasonably coherent I'm fine with it. I know a guy that has had a couple of safety lapses of memory (none with a loaded gun). There are several of us who keep an eye out for and on him. He's an old timer, with health issues, and we decided we are not going to take away one of his life's joys. We would rather pay a little more attention to him and allow his to enjoy his time with us. I know he's not going to around forever.

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If there ever was a conversation that ought to be had somewhere other than the Wire, this is it.

Really? How is discussing any potential types of liability inappropriate on a competitive shooting forum?

 

We have another thread that completely misrepresents 2 fine clubs safety with zero evidence. I believe the poster is guilty of slander and libel. Why is that not inappropriate?

 

I did not mean to insult any of my fine shooting friends with "life shortening" maladys. I have one myself.

 

 

 

Fillmore

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I did not mean to insult any of my fine shooting friends "life shortening" maladys. I have one myself.

 

 

 

Fillmore

 

I don't see where you insulted anyone. Diabetes, just like a host of other medical issues, has all degrees of control and disabilities. Just because a person is under poor control one day, it does not mean they are not under good control the next day. The shooter should bear the responsibility to not shoot if they are doing poorly. I believe most cowpokes understand personal responsibility.

 

I can't speak to the legal issues, because what seems right is not what always occurs in a court of law. If I had real concerns, I think I would contact the club's insurance agent and have an open discussion.

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Guest Texas Jack Black

If anyone thinks that he or she assumes no liability when they become A SASS approved RO safety officer and are put in charge of an Unloading table or a loading table or an RO position I suggest they consult their attorney. If you have any assets and there is an accident they could become at risk.

 

 

T J B

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your topic is fine to talk about

 

Thanks fer yer opinion bo.

 

Fillmore

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Thanks fer yer opinion bo.

 

Fillmore

Yes

 

Yes sir, as old as we are getting we need to have the discussion.......I think any reasonable person would remove themselves from competition if they got to a point of becoming unsafe........doesn't stop a person with a disability or illness from shooting and it shouldn't.......just my opinion.

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I am certainly no attorney-but--. Having been involved in other sports that had clubs and lots of potential risk of injury to participants, and was a club official I worried a lot about personal individual liability and club liability as the clubs owned a lot more assets than most shooting clubs. In those instances our clubs hired an attorney that gave us good advice on how to set up the club in that state to reduce the cost risk for personal liability of individuals/members, of club officials and of the club. Of course nothing is perfect but it is possible to reduce (not eliminate) your risk and potential $ liability. If your club has not done so, or not used legal guidelines provided by the NRA and SASS they should do so. In the case of at least two clubs (non shooting) I belong to, we incorporated our club in the state as a non profit corporation, made everyone either a guest or member/owner of the club. Made guests sign waivers on liability, and members/owners then would have a harder time suing themselves as partial owners of the club(including certificate of ownership) of the club. Never been tested, but we felt this reduced our risk and protected our officers/members. Lastly clubs of any kind should carry as much liability insurance as it can afford and members should do likewise. In many cases cowboy clubs are a division of a larger shooting club that has probably already delved into these kinds of liability issues.

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I am certainly no attorney-but--. Having been involved in other sports that had clubs and lots of potential risk of injury to participants, and was a club official I worried a lot about personal individual liability and club liability as the clubs owned a lot more assets than most shooting clubs. In those instances our clubs hired an attorney that gave us good advice on how to set up the club in that state to reduce the cost risk for personal liability of individuals/members, of club officials and of the club. Of course nothing is perfect but it is possible to reduce (not eliminate) your risk and potential $ liability. If your club has not done so, or not used legal guidelines provided by the NRA and SASS they should do so. In the case of at least two clubs (non shooting) I belong to, we incorporated our club in the state as a non profit corporation, made everyone either a guest or member/owner of the club. Made guests sign waivers on liability, and members/owners then would have a harder time suing themselves as partial owners of the club(including certificate of ownership) of the club. Never been tested, but we felt this reduced our risk and protected our officers/members. Lastly clubs of any kind should carry as much liability insurance as it can afford and members should do likewise. In many cases cowboy clubs are a division of a larger shooting club that has probably already delved into these kinds of liability issues.

 

Very good advice. Thanks GCK.

 

Fillmore

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In Louisiana, one cannot have a CDL and drive trucks or commercial vehicles with insulin dependent diabetes. Probably about the same in most states. To not be able to drive an automobile would take more imparement than just insulin dependent diabetes. Visual problems come to mind and could well be the limiting factor in this case. If this pard can see well enough to shoot and can get around, he should be OK to shoot in a CAS match, IMHO. I don't see "passing out", etc., as a big problem here.

 

DF

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Not allowing folks with medical problems or physical limitations to shoot would thin the ranks pretty quick.

 

A perfectly healthy person can pass out on a real hot day. Seen it happen. You can't prevent everything, everywhere, everytime.

 

As long as folks are willing to modify what they do to shoot safely with whatever ails them, let 'em!

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liability is a fact of life

 

common cents used to bee a fact of life as well

 

if a shooter uses good judgment, knows his or her limits and acts accordingly, then we should not care about DMV

 

a club should use good judgment, when dealing with all aspects of putting on a shoot

 

wether a feller ever had a divers license or not, sud not really apply

common sense should, are they acting and reacting in a safe manner

if they arent? step in and git er done (nicely)

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I don't see where you insulted anyone. Diabetes, just like a host of other medical issues, has all degrees of control and disabilities. Just because a person is under poor control one day, it does not mean they are not under good control the next day. The shooter should bear the responsibility to not shoot if they are doing poorly. I believe most cowpokes understand personal responsibility.

 

I can't speak to the legal issues, because what seems right is not what always occurs in a court of law. If I had real concerns, I think I would contact the club's insurance agent and have an open discussion.

 

I agree with you 100%..a person must take responsibilities for ones self ...Sometimes in doing so it can be a little embarrassing..Last Saturday there was a shooter at the Outlaw match ...He went as far as loading his guns and start to stage them....at that point he said...I am scratching ..I am just not feeling right to shoot a match today....

 

That shooter was me....

 

And believe me I wanted to shoot bad that day and it was very embarrassing to pull out at the last minute in front of a bunch of new frends....But it would have been more embarrassing or worst to have dropped a gun or something.

 

 

This is what happened....The week before had been a long week for me working long hours and a bit stressful and I was really looking forward to the match for the stress relief ...I did not get much rest the night before... that morning I got up early did a cupple of chores around the house ...did not eat my breakfast...drank a pot of coffee....and did not take my high blood pressure meds....one of them is a beta blocker....

 

Anyway by the time the match started between all of the above and just the normal jitters of a match I had the shakes real bad ...I was not so bad off that I could not function....But I had the shakes bad enough that inside I felt the responsible thing to do was to pull out and not shoot...I stayed for the match ...pulled a few knockdowns and was a counter....

 

Did it kill me inside to watch the others shoot...YES...was I embarrassed...YES....But on the other hand...It was a good match with a good possie fun had by all ...If I had taken the chance of going ahead and shooting?...Who knows there was a 90% chance all would have been fine....I was just not willing to bet on that 10% chance that I might have made a mistake...

 

 

PS....weather a person has a drivers license or not it should not mater

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Well pards, to eliminate the mystery of who we are talking about; It is I that has had diabetes for over 34 years and had my California license pulled. First off, there was NO driving incident that caused my license to be pulled, rather low blood sugars in hospital settings that caused doctors to notify the DMV which turned into a loss of license. I deal with shooting as I did with driving, both very important "mind tasking" jobs as it were. I measure my blood sugar several times before I attempt to engage such endeavors to make sure that there is no chance that I will "low" in the middle of shooting and before "driving". Not only would that be potentially dangerous for me, my scores would end up stinking something fierce! At no time do I ever point fingers blaming anyone else during a low as I know it can only be my fault for the end result of a low. Also I strive to make sure that a low does not happen in the first place! They are not fun at all and certainly something to be avoided at all costs including during shooting. I hope this has cleared things up a bit and lessened the worries about diabetes in particular. I would be the first person to call time out and pull myself out of competition if I was feeling ill and needed help. There would be no need in further shooting at that point at all. Sincerely, Smithy.

Smithy,

I'm going to echo Madd Mike's comments. You sound like you take your disease seriously and would be the first one to DQ yourself if you thought it necessary. That kind of attitude is to be commended. You can shoot with me and my posse any time, pard....as long as YOU say you're up to it.

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I've bailed from shooting a couple of times related to low blood sugars, too hot, and too tired. One thing I always did was tell the posse leader and the registration person who tracked scores why and what I was doing. Sometimes I've stayed at the club house for an hour then went home. I haven't felt the need to have someone get me home but would ask if necessary.

 

One thing about most shooters is if you stop because you don't feel safe no one will make fun of you. You always gain respect from others.

 

I suspect low blood sugars and heat pose the greatest risk to safety than anything else in this sport.

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Woodie,

 

I am so glad you hung around. Instead of being embarassed, you should be proud that you knew the best thing to do. You earned everyone on the posse's respect for your actions.

 

Ranger Boyd, our posse marshal, was very pleased with you for knowing what was best.

 

I hope you will join us every month. I think your son-in-law may be hooked on CAS too.

 

Hope to see you soon!

 

Allie Mo

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