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Safety Rules worked


Buckaroo Bubba

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Just wanted to share an example of why we have safety rules. Shooter was at the loading table with pistol pointed down range, muzzle resting on the table while it was being loaded. There was a high primer and the shooter was turning the cylinder to keep loading. The round fired, putting a hole through the table headed down range. Obviously the shooter knew he was done for the day but this is why we have safety rules. It worked this time. Make sure all of the safety rules are followed by everyone, every time!

 

Thanks, Buckaroo Bubba

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I'm missing some of this situation.

 

Are you saying that the high primer ignited by itself just by loading it in the cylinder or was it in the cylinder and it ignited just by turning the cylinder?

 

Just curious.

 

thanks

 

 

..........Widder

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The shooter was turning the cylinder so he could continue loading the gun and the force of turning the cylinder on the high primer ignited the round. Pistol was fine. Just put a hole in the table.

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So are we to assume that the round in question fired lined up with the forcing cone and barrel? Just trying to understand what happened.

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That's what I assumed, I wasn't right there when it happened.

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It is amazing how robust a revolver can be;

 

I got an Italian copy of a Walker Colt back when they first came out (60s?) and at the time knew not about the smear of crisco or other grease over each loaded ball I loaded all 6 (yes I know but I was young and dumb) and presented it to the target about 10 yards away (an old fashioned Police Bad guy silhouette)

 

Touched it off and BA BA BA BA BABlam BaBlam! (we need a brown trousers smiley I think for this sort of thing) by the time the last one went the pistol was pointed almost straight up... the round that was lined up with the rammer at the 6 position was wedged into the rammer and the gun needed take down to remove it and the wedge was bit peened and needed a few hits from a heavy hammer to restore it to use that provided proper cylinder barrel gap....but there was no other damage from 6x60 gr or so of powder and 6 soft lead .45 balls (Which turned out to be a touch undersized and the proximate cause of the event as later I found that I could shoot it with out grease if the seating of the proper sized ball left a slight ring of lead at loading)

 

interestingly there were 2 holes in the target on near the belly button and one in the head area!

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I don't know what kind of gun he had. I have no reason to believe it was anything other than a high primer. The shooter was an experienced shooter and the guy on the loading table didn't say anything other than that.. It doesn't matter, not the point.. point was follow the safety rules and even if something happens everyone is safe.

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Something not right here. Im betting it was operator error, not high primer. Got reasons why but dont feel like typing that much. Good thing it was pointed in a safe direction.

I agree, if a primer goes off while turning the cylinder a high primer would have to hit the frame of the revolver. This would be an out of battery discharge with small lead parts flying off in a lot of different directions. If bullet came out of barrel, then round would have to have been almost lined up with the barrel, and then a high primer would have nothing to hit. I suspect the hammer dropped and hit the primer on round lined up with the barrel. On all of my Rugers, Wes Flowers made a small taper on the side of the frame where a round could hit the frame to reduce a high primer round from going off out of battery (I assume).

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I agree, if a primer goes off while turning the cylinder a high primer would have to hit the frame of the revolver. This would be an out of battery discharge with small lead parts flying off in a lot of different directions. If bullet came out of barrel, then round would have to have been almost lined up with the barrel, and then a high primer would have nothing to hit. I suspect the hammer dropped and hit the primer on round lined up with the barrel. On all of my Rugers, Wes Flowers made a small taper on the side of the frame where a round could hit the frame to reduce a high primer round from going off out of battery (I assume).

Maybe the high primer was the last round in, the shooter spins the cylinder with force to check for high primers without closing the loading gate, and the high primer hits the loading gate with enough force to detonate it with round infront of the loading gate, allowing a mostly clear path from the cylinder to the loading table. In such a scenario, enough of the shell case would be over the frame/loading gate to keep the case in the cylinder as the round fired.

The bullet did not have to pass through the barrel to make a hole in the table.

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Maybe the high primer was the last round in, the shooter spins the cylinder with force to check for high primers without closing the loading gate, and the high primer hits the loading gate with enough force to detonate it with round infront of the loading gate, allowing a mostly clear path from the cylinder to the loading table. In such a scenario, enough of the shell case would be over the frame/loading gate to keep the case in the cylinder as the round fired.

The bullet did not have to pass through the barrel to make a hole in the table.

What kind of a gun allows a potential high primer to come close to hitting a loading gate that is open?

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I don't know what kind of gun he had. I have no reason to believe it was anything other than a high primer. The shooter was an experienced shooter and the guy on the loading table didn't say anything other than that.. It doesn't matter, not the point.. point was follow the safety rules and even if something happens everyone is safe.

 

 

Hey Bubba, your safety point is well taken but I'd betcha a dollar to a donut the shooter had a colt type pistol and was trying to find the empty chamber and he slipped or otherwise hit the live round. Yes sir, keep those guns pointed into the berm or down range cause the life you save might be mine!

 

Spittoon

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Yes, keeping muzzels pointing in a safe direction is a good rule.

 

But, I'm a bit suspicious of this story. Primer drag usually happens short of being under the hammer...hance lined up with the barrel.

 

:FlagAm:

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Just wanted to share an example of why we have safety rules. Shooter was at the loading table with pistol pointed down range, muzzle resting on the table while it was being loaded. There was a high primer and the shooter was turning the cylinder to keep loading. The round fired, putting a hole through the table headed down range. Obviously the shooter knew he was done for the day but this is why we have safety rules. It worked this time. Make sure all of the safety rules are followed by everyone, every time!

This scares the pudding out of me as the two ranges I currently have shot at (soon not to be as I am moving) position each stages loading and unloading tables together and facing each other and not towards any berm. So if the above happened at one of these two ranges someone quite possibly would have been shot! At my first shoot that was one of the first things that I noticed and made note of to myself thinking that that was a very dumb idea and poor planning at best. You have everyone under the sun from very first beginner to seasoned veteran fumbling with their shooters and blind to their activities on the other side is another group unloading their shooters in direct line of fire. A bad situation! Not all the stages are this way but better than 75% are. Smithy.

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This scares the pudding out of me as the two ranges I currently have shot at (soon not to be as I am moving) position each stages loading and unloading tables together and facing each other and not towards any berm. So if the above happened at one of these two ranges someone quite possibly would have been shot! At my first shoot that was one of the first things that I noticed and made note of to myself thinking that that was a very dumb idea and poor planning at best. You have everyone under the sun from very first beginner to seasoned veteran fumbling with their shooters and blind to their activities on the other side is another group unloading their shooters in direct line of fire. A bad situation! Not all the stages are this way but better than 75% are. Smithy.

 

Are you saying that they have freshly loaded guns...and guns that have just be used on a stage that may still have a live round in them...facing each other?????

 

I don't believe it...

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Are you saying that they have freshly loaded guns...and guns that have just be used on a stage that may still have a live round in them...facing each other?????

 

I don't believe it...

Yep, if that's the case then everyone is sweeping everyone :o:huh: So everyone at the match is DQed :wacko:

 

Jefro :ph34r:

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This scares the pudding out of me as the two ranges I currently have shot at (soon not to be as I am moving) position each stages loading and unloading tables together and facing each other and not towards any berm. So if the above happened at one of these two ranges someone quite possibly would have been shot! At my first shoot that was one of the first things that I noticed and made note of to myself thinking that that was a very dumb idea and poor planning at best. You have everyone under the sun from very first beginner to seasoned veteran fumbling with their shooters and blind to their activities on the other side is another group unloading their shooters in direct line of fire. A bad situation! Not all the stages are this way but better than 75% are. Smithy.

 

 

Your jokin, ain't ya?

 

Are you sayin that the loading AND unloading tables are two separate tables and that the Loader AND Unloaders are facing each other during the process of loading and unloading their guns?

 

..........Widder

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This scares the pudding out of me as the two ranges I currently have shot at (soon not to be as I am moving) position each stages loading and unloading tables together and facing each other and not towards any berm. So if the above happened at one of these two ranges someone quite possibly would have been shot! At my first shoot that was one of the first things that I noticed and made note of to myself thinking that that was a very dumb idea and poor planning at best. You have everyone under the sun from very first beginner to seasoned veteran fumbling with their shooters and blind to their activities on the other side is another group unloading their shooters in direct line of fire. A bad situation! Not all the stages are this way but better than 75% are. Smithy.

 

Any club that sets up loading table and unloading table facing each other with nothing in between should lose their SASS affiliation. Any shooter that shoots there should have their head examined. ADs at the loading table are common and if you haven't stood beside a shooter having one you will at some point. Unloading table ADs are a bit more rare but they do occur also. This all assumes the story is true and correctly described. Maybe it would be best if you tell everyone where this club is located so they can be avoided.

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Boy, I miss one shoot & things go all to hell.

Glad no body got hurt

--Dawg

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This scares the pudding out of me as the two ranges I currently have shot at (soon not to be as I am moving) position each stages loading and unloading tables together and facing each other and not towards any berm. So if the above happened at one of these two ranges someone quite possibly would have been shot! At my first shoot that was one of the first things that I noticed and made note of to myself thinking that that was a very dumb idea and poor planning at best. You have everyone under the sun from very first beginner to seasoned veteran fumbling with their shooters and blind to their activities on the other side is another group unloading their shooters in direct line of fire. A bad situation! Not all the stages are this way but better than 75% are. Smithy.

 

If what you speak of is true as you have stated it, well its so stupid its funny.

 

 

RRR

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What kind of a gun allows a potential high primer to come close to hitting a loading gate that is open?

I don't know - I was just trying to think 'what if' scenarios.

I've heard of high primer AD's on semiautos ('slam fires' when the action is closed on a high primer), but not on revolvers.

That, however, does not mean that it can not happen.

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I don't know - I was just trying to think 'what if' scenarios.

I've heard of high primer AD's on semiautos ('slam fires' when the action is closed on a high primer), but not on revolvers.

That, however, does not mean that it can not happen.

 

 

I think it could happen but the round would not be in battery with the barrel most likely when the primer was set off in a single action revolver. Setting off a primer with a side hit ( like from hitting the revolver frame), would probably be a low probability of occurrence. I still bet that the primer was set off when the hammer was being lowered after loading 5 rounds. I have seen two ADs at loading table and both were when a colt clone was being loaded and the cylinder spun to check for high primers and the hammer accidentally was dropped at the wrong time.

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Something not right here. Im betting it was operator error, not high primer. Got reasons why but dont feel like typing that much. Good thing it was pointed in a safe direction.

I sortta inclined to agree with you on this one. :ph34r:

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I'm still trying to envision myself standing in FRONT of the loading table, clearing my guns. The stupid meter would have to be pegged off-scale high!!

 

Four Bucks (who'd be packing up his gear immediately)

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Are you saying that they have freshly loaded guns...and guns that have just be used on a stage that may still have a live round in them...facing each other?????

That's exactly how it is. If you can remember how the game "Battleship" is set up, that basically is how the tables are set up. The loading and unloading tables butted up and facing each other with a vertical sheet of 1/2" CDX ply inbetween the two. Of the two ranges I spoke of, the worst offender is http://www.prvccowboy.com/ and the second not nearly so bad (I think they may only have one or two remaining examples that they may be trying to fix) is http://www.slosa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=4&Itemid=6 It has been awhile since I have been out to the second range so they may have corrected their problems by now, but the first range had everyone of their loading/unloading tables set up that way. Smithy.

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Smitty, are the tables arranged as shown below? That is what you seem to indicate.

 

 

loading unloading

---------- ----------

I>>>>>>>>I I<<<<<<<<I

I>>>>>>>>I I<<<<<<<<I

I>>>>>>>>I I<<<<<<<<I

I>>>>>>>>I I<<<<<<<<I

I>>>>>>>>I I<<<<<<<<I

I>>>>>>>>I I<<<<<<<<I

I>>>>>>>>I I<<<<<<<<I

---------- ----------

 

Edit: didn't go to the screen as I had it but you get the drift.

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Unbelievable. I cannot imagine being at an unloading table and looking directly across at a loading table where a fellow shooter is loading his guns with their muzzles pointing directly across the tables at me. Separated only by plywood???? It boggles the mind.

 

I still say no club would ever have such a set-up. No way no how.

 

side by side with a loading table right next to an unloading table with all muzzles pointed the same direction downrange -- yes. Facing each other??? NO way...?????

 

Sun, no I for one do not get the drift of what you are trying to convey with the diagram. ??

 

Still shaking my head and trying to wrap my brain around the very concept...

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That's exactly how it is. If you can remember how the game "Battleship" is set up, that basically is how the tables are set up. The loading and unloading tables butted up and facing each other with a vertical sheet of 1/2" CDX ply inbetween the two. Of the two ranges I spoke of, the worst offender is http://www.prvccowboy.com/ and the second not nearly so bad (I think they may only have one or two remaining examples that they may be trying to fix) is http://www.slosa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=4&Itemid=6 It has been awhile since I have been out to the second range so they may have corrected their problems by now, but the first range had everyone of their loading/unloading tables set up that way. Smithy.

 

I've shot at the second range a few times...won the John Wayne shoot there in '07, Rules Committee members shoot there...many multi-time overall champions shoot there...and I can promise you that you're misrepresenting the set up there.

 

They are 100% safe...

 

:FlagAm:

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