crooked jake,4371 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I think the Gunfighter category should be eliminated...just too scary...someone might get hurt. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Pumping the guns to the point that the barrel of one is behind the other hand (regardless of which lane it is in) is an accident waiting to happen. I like PW's response (I typically do) because it gives the shooter an opportunity to learn without receiving a MDQ. Regarding this particular shooter, I would not wait until next month to tell him. Tell him now so he can have an opportunity to practice shooting gunfighter without pumping. Muscle memory is hard to overcome and could be done much better over the duration of a month instead of attempting to change during a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Heck my pistols ,,,,Rock with every shot ..... Recoil does that ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, And the barrel even lifts some !!! Better give-up on the idea of trying "Double Duelist",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Might git called fer one gun behind ta other .... cuss of recoil ,,,,,,,,,,,,, Won't matter though ,, Cause I can't draw my guns for fear that someone might call me fer sweeping myself .... Quess we might as well all quit .... Jabez Cowboy NOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Arrgh! I know I will be blasted for what I am about to write. My second year shooting, I shot with a (now deceased) GF whose guns went way up in the air due to recoil. He'd cock with them pointed up. A few years later, I was told by a young lady whose father (different man, also deceased) was a very experienced shooter, to let the upward motion of the recoil help you cock the gun when shooting duelist. IMO, if you rely on recoil to help you cock, you need smaller guns or lower hammers so you can keep your muzzles pointed down range not over the berm. If you can't control the gun due to recoil with hot loads, you need to rethink your "I'm a he-man loads." Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Pumping the guns to the point that the barrel of one is behind the other hand (regardless of which lane it is in) is an accident waiting to happen. I like PW's response (I typically do) because it gives the shooter an opportunity to learn without receiving a MDQ. Regarding this particular shooter, I would not wait until next month to tell him. Tell him now so he can have an opportunity to practice shooting gunfighter without pumping. Muscle memory is hard to overcome and could be done much better over the duration of a month instead of attempting to change during a match. I agree, I think we all know the reason for the rule (At no time is it acceptable for either revolver to be held in an unsafe position (e.g., one revolver behind the other) without having to define what is "is". A couple of years ago we had a new shooter try GF at his second match, the over exaggerated pumping was almost to the point of wild. After a polite chat and a few months of practice he got the hang of it. Jefro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Arrgh! I know I will be blasted for what I am about to write. A few years later, I was told by a young lady whose father (different man, also deceased) was a very experienced shooter, to let the upward motion of the recoil help you cock the gun when shooting duelist. Regards, Allie Mo I blasteth thee. Seriously, this is a common misconception. The idea is that when a revolver recoils, the hammer comes closer to the shooter's thumb. Unless a shooter releases his grip during the recoil, it does not. The movement from recoil occurs either in an upward movement of the entire arm (if the wrist is kept stiff) or the recoil causes the wrist to roll back. In either case, the hammer does not move closer to the thumb...unless the grip is released. To see what I'm speaking of, extend your arm straight out with your fingers closed as if you're holding a gun with your thumb extended upward as if you're hitch-hiking. To simulate recoil absorbed by the movement of the arm up, raise your arm. Watch as your thumb moves with it. To simulate recoil absorbed by the wrist moving, rotate your wrist back. During both of these processes, the thumb remains in the same position in relation to the grip of the gun and therefore the hammer. While I suppose some might say they release the grip and allow it to "roll back" in their hand, I personally wouldn't recommend it. The most important reason being fear of dropping the gun, but the other is it takes time. I don't wrap my thumb on my rifle either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hey alli,,,,E ; My guns are under control at all times !!!! And raise just enough to make cocking a little easyer ... No way ones going over any berm taller than a short person ... , , , But that aside I do enjoy shooting loads like the Cowboys of yore used ,,,,, That's my game as my crippled body can't move fast enough to win me any Cadillacs ... Fun shooting guns my grandad would have been proud to own and use ,,,, Wait a second ,,, two or three of them used to be his... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Seriously, this is a common misconception. The idea is that when a revolver recoils, the hammer comes closer to the shooter's thumb. Unless a shooter releases his grip during the recoil, it does not. While I suppose some might say they release the grip and allow it to "roll back" in their hand, I personally wouldn't recommend it. The most important reason being fear of dropping the gun, but the other is it takes time. I don't wrap my thumb on my rifle either. The SAA was designed to roll under recoil. If you are holding the SAA properly - the hammer will come back to your thumb. The short grip frame (usually shorter than the width of a males middle, ring and pinky finger side by side) is there to encourage "Pinky under" gripping - this meant that the only fingers actually holding the gun are your middle finger and ring finger. Imagine a axis directly behind the trigger guard of the gun side to side - no matter the orientation of the barrel - the pistol stays on that same axis. Under recoil the muzzle moves upward - pivoting on the middle finger (our imaginary axis line) - and this recoil, yes, then rotates the hammer back to the thumb. The thumb rolls sideways into the valley of the hammer and maintains pressure on the hammer (not cocking it). The pistol is then brought back to level by the pinky applying force under the grip frame. This rotation (and the hammer being held in place by the thumb) results in the gun being cocked and the muzzle returning to level. In essence - the hammer is not moved, but maintained in the same position as the pistol is rotated around it. In my opinion, the reach forward method of Duelist or Gunfighter cocking is no faster than allowing the pistol to roll. (There are simply more shooters using the modern death grip and reach forward method than the rock and roll method) But unless the shooter is very choked up on the pistol or has freakishly long thumbs - the pistol is still being pulled off target while reaching forward (usually the gun is pulled slightly sideways) and since this movement is done AFTER recoil is recovered from, it may actually be slower as the shooter is not using the built in mechanics of the pistol. As for comparing rolling the pistol to wrapping your thumb on the rifle - Your mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Waddy Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Behind = ((caliber x 3.14) / sqrt(length of arm from end of pinky to tip of elbow in cm))^2.204 as observed by an unbiased group of randomly selected cowboy action shooters compared to a standard 38 partly filled with black powder or a substitute, depending on wind direction and velocity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Graham, # 26112 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Even seen a one-handed shooter get called for breaking the 170 because the muzzle of the gun was straight up after recoil? Or seen one done for the day after a round went over the berm? Made me a fan of "Gunfighter Death Grip" technique. I'm not saying I couldn't have it happen but it does lower the chances. It takes practice to be a safe gunfighter and then a bunch more to be a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I agree with Creeker,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Dang never thought that would happen !!! Sorry bout that I will try and not let that happen again.... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I agree with Creeker,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Dang never thought that would happen !!! Sorry bout that I will try and not let that happen again.... Jabez Cowboy I'm just as shocked as you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlicLee SASS #16638 Life Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Sounds like you've got it in for that man. The RO stated" he did nothing wrong". But you kept on. I cant imagine where you were standing when he was shooting but the RO had, Im sure, better depth perception than you and a better view of his hands. PWB did not say he was guilty of anything but gave a penalty. With you standing behind or to the side in the rear of a proficient gunfighter I doubt very much if you could make such a judgement, that is see his hands or guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Here's the "death grip" as demonstrated by the top single hand shooter (12th overall) at End of Trail 2010, Nuttin' Graceful. Jabez, as far as pulling the trigger on a loosely held, ready to roll in your hand, revolver using the hot loads that you speak of, it reminds me of the old joke about a redneck whose last words were "watch this." Creeker, to me it seems that even if the gun were allowed to rock back and by doing so move the hammer to the thumb, I can't imagine the weight of gun being enough to pull the front of the gun down and cock itself. It seems that in order to cock the hammer, there must be an anchor point with enough force applied to to cock the hammer. The logical anchor point seems to be the grip...being held. I learned a long time ago that the impossible can only be accomplished when the mind is open to it. My mind is open and I know your shooting well enough to not wholesale discount what you have to say. It would be interesting to see a video of you demonstrating this technique. No trick photography like T-Bone uses making us think he can cock a hammered double that fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Creeker, to me it seems that even if the gun were allowed to rock back and by doing so move the hammer to the thumb, I can't imagine the weight of gun being enough to pull the front of the gun down and cock itself. It seems that in order to cock the hammer, there must be an anchor point with enough force applied to to cock the hammer. The logical anchor point seems to be the grip...being held. I learned a long time ago that the impossible can only be accomplished when the mind is open to it. My mind is open and I know your shooting well enough to not wholesale discount what you have to say. It would be interesting to see a video of you demonstrating this technique. No trick photography like T-Bone uses making us think he can cock a hammered double that fast. I will see what I can do about getting a video online to show what I am talking about. But - I think you missed something in my description - the weight of the gun does not cock the pistol - the pinky does. With the pinky under the grip and the gun rotated upward - the hammer is held in place by the thumb and the gun rotated back to level by the pinky . Since your hand doesn't really move - the muzzle is pulled right back down to the same plane as the shot was fired from - makes it very fast for rows of targets at the same height or re-engaging the same target again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Now this is really getting deep, the pinky cocking the pistol,,,,is it April 1st yet? cheyenne, who dunt know wat his pinky is duen wen he izza shutin, Culpepper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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