Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Why No Original 45 Colt Rifles


Marauder SASS #13056

Recommended Posts

I was reading the really good thread about 73 Rifle cartridges and thought I'd remind folks why the 45 Colt was not chambered in rifles until rather recently.

 

Today, the 45 Colt cartridge rim is nice and large, normally with an indented "extractor" groove. See an example in the write up on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Colt

You can see that it will work pretty well in a rifle.

 

The original 45 Colt was a different design than what we use today. It used "balloon head" brass. This type of brass was easily manufactured back in the day. Since the cartridge was made for pistols, there was not need to make the process more difficult as brass such as the 44-40, etc. With this brass, there was very little for an extractor grab. The rim was not square, was often very small and was relatively weak. For some pictures see:

http://www.frfrogspad.com/cases.gif

 

The case on the upper right best shows the original 45 Colt brass.

Latter improvements were made as shown in the lower row.

I think Driftwood Johnson has some photos of the real stuff and it is really obvious that they would not work well in a rifle at all.

 

Essentially all the center-fire cartridges used in original 73 rifles were bottle necked rather than straight walled cartridges. This allowed for improved feeding and sealed the chamber very well to give good ballistics and protect the shooter from gasses that escape and come back at the shooter. A common problem with the straight walled cases we used today (38 Special, 44 Special /Mag or 45 Colt is that unless you load near maximum (and sometimes even then) you will get some blow back coming back at the shooter.

 

So it shows that the previous generations were pretty bright and generally practical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More great info from Marauder! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and research!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good stuff.

 

Firearms, like automobiles, have progressed at the pace of the available technology of the day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Howdy Marauder

 

Allow me to make a tiny correction if I may.

 

The very very first version of the 45 Colt cartridge was not a Balloon Head cartridge. It was known as a Benet primed folded rim type of cartridge. Benet was the name of an official with the Frankford Arsenal and he developed this priming system. Here is a photo of some Benet primed folded rim cartridges. The one all the way on the left is a 45 Colt, I am reasonably sure the cartridge next to it is what we would call today a 45 Schofield. Notice these cartridges are copper cased, not brass. The Benet priming system did not use an externally visible primer. You can see that from the view of the bottoms of the cartridges. Benet cartridges were inside primed. The priming material was applied to the inside of the bottom of the case, then an anvil plate was pressed down on top of the priming material. The anvil plate was crimped in place so it would not move. These crimps are quite evident in this photo. When the firing pin struck the rear of the case, the priming material was compressed between the rear of the case and the anvil plate, causing the priming material to ignite. Because of their construction, Benet primed cases were not reloadable. Early 45-70 cases also used the Benet priming system.

 

As far as these early Benet primed 45 Colt cases is concerned, it is true that they did not have a large enough diameter rim for a rifle extractor to get a good grip on. But as you say, the 45 Colt cartridge was conceived of as a revolver cartridge for the SAA and an extractor did not enter into the equation. We all know that the SAA pokes its empties out from the inside. There is no extractor on a SAA, only an ejector rod.

 

The other thing to be noted about the Benet Primed case is it had the most case capacity of all. Some firearm historians believe the Benet primed case is the only case that could truly hold 40 grains of FFg Black Powder in the 45 Colt cartridge.

 

Benet Primed Cartridges

 

Here is a photo showing the difference between a Balloon Head case and a modern case. These particular cases are 44-40, but you get the idea. As I say, the Benet Primed case may have had even more powder capacity than the Balloon Head.

 

One of my books states that by 1882 the Army was using a 45 Colt round that was copper cased, but used a modern Boxer style primer. This round would have been a Balloon Head round.

 

Ballon Head vs Modern Cartridge

 

This next photo may be the most fun of all. This is my entire collection of old 45 Colt cartridges so far. Most of these cases have rims down in the .505 diameter range. On the far left is one of my reloads with a modern Winchester case. The rim on that case is .509 in diameter, which is a tad under the modern standard of .512 for 45 Colt. Also notice that none of those old cartridges has an 'extractor groove'. Our friends who shoot semi-autos can be forgiven for calling it an extractor groove, with revolver ammo it is really just an artifact left over from making the brass in the first place.

 

Clearly, none of these old 45 Colt cartridges has a rim large enough for a rifle extractor claw to get a grip on.

 

But take a peek at that round on the far right. That round was made at the Frankford Arsenal in December of 1913. Notice how large the rim is. That rim is .539 in diameter. That rim is even larger in diameter than a 45 Schofield rim (.520). My understanding is that FA round was made up for the Army for some Double Action revolvers and the rim was that large so it could be grabbed by the extractor on those revolvers, just like the 45 Schofield rims. Just goes to show there is always an exception to every rule. If anybody had bothered to chamber a rifle for 45 Colt, that round would probably have worked in it. However, nobody ever did. By the way, I did not take a photo of the bottom of that round, but it has a small primer, not a large diameter primer.

 

45 Colt Cartridges

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Driftwood - Great Information. Hope you don't mind, saved it on my computer for reference. Also if you need it again, so you don't have to retype it! ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My understanding from RL Wilson's book on Colts and Winchesters (reading between the lines) and looking at a lot of photos and articles leads me to a different reason. The .45 Colt was mainly a military and town cartridge and a cartridge found in Colts for people who carried rifles in non-WCF rounds. W. Earp, Mastersons, Luke Short and many others that were mainly found in town carried .45s. Others, like Perry Owens who carried a Spencer, carried rifles in non WCF rounds.

 

Carrying a repeating rifle and pistol on the open range was beneficial, but not everyone was on the open range. The .44WCF was a very effective rifle round but could not compete with the .45 in a revolver.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The .44WCF was a very effective rifle round but could not compete with the .45 in a revolver.

 

Both rounds contained 40 grans of Black Powder. That is more than enough powder to make a very effective manstopper when fired from a revolver. No matter whether from a 200 grain 44 caliber bullet, or from a 250 grain 45 caliber bullet, the target would most likely wind up dead. Really no difference between the two as which was more effective.

 

As I said before, the reason that rifles were never chambered for 45 Colt was because the rim would not allow effective extraction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Howdy, Pards,

To add to the excellant information given by Driftwood and Marauder, et al, the Army also used inside-primed, copper-cased (actually gilding metal...much softer than brass) in the .45-70 ammo. And you know the problems Reno & Benteen had with jammed Trapdoor Springfields at the LBH fight! (No, Custer's troopers had very little problem with jammed guns...they didn't live that long! :angry: )

 

Had Winchester chambered the M1873 for .45 Colt's, a number of Army officers would have undoubtedly bought them, as would have enlisted troops that could afford such a rifle. They would have had access to Army ammunition. Imagine what would have happened to Winchester's reputation if the extractor hooks started tearing through the rims of those copper cases after intense firing! And the problems would have been exacerbated when the Army went to the .45 Revolver Ball (aka .45 Schofield) round, which was shorter than the Colt's case!

 

Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your obdt servant,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But take a peek at that round on the far right. That round was made at the Frankford Arsenal in December of 1913. Notice how large the rim is. That rim is .539 in diameter. That rim is even larger in diameter than a 45 Schofield rim (.520). My understanding is that FA round was made up for the Army for some Double Action revolvers and the rim was that large so it could be grabbed by the extractor on those revolvers, just like the 45 Schofield rims. Just goes to show there is always an exception to every rule. If anybody had bothered to chamber a rifle for 45 Colt, that round would probably have worked in it. However, nobody ever did. By the way, I did not take a photo of the bottom of that round, but it has a small primer, not a large diameter primer.

 

45 Colt Cartridges

 

 

Seems to me one of the magazines, most likely Handloader although it could have been American Rifleman, recently had an article about the .45 ammo for the U.S. revolver Model of 1909, and that it had a larger rim.

 

My gunroom is undergoing major renovation just now, can't get to my stack of recent magazines to confirm... and my memory isn't as good as it was -- which never was great :)

 

-Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Take a look at the extractor on your rifle.

The extractors on 66 and 73 rifles need a good, sharp, straight edge on the back of the cartridge to grab onto. If the edge is at a "positive" angle over 90 degrees, the extractor would slip off and be unreliable.

The back of the balloon head cartridges were normally smooth, relatively slippery and not at a right angle .

 

So you have an extractor shaped (sorta) like:

===|

 

With the back of the shell shaped like:

|\----

|/----

 

Obviously not a good "system" as the extractor has almost nothing to grab and will slip off= Then add a little Gunpowder fowling....

=|

.|\----

.|/----

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Howdy, Pards,

To add to the excellant information given by Driftwood and Marauder, et al, the Army also used inside-primed, copper-cased (actually gilding metal...much softer than brass) in the .45-70 ammo. And you know the problems Reno & Benteen had with jammed Trapdoor Springfields at the LBH fight! (No, Custer's troopers had very little problem with jammed guns...they didn't live that long! :angry: )

 

Hey Trailrider, do you mean one like this one?

 

45-70 Benet Primed Cartridge

 

The 45-70 round on the left is a copper cased (gilding metal) Benet primed 45-70. It actually has the wrong bullet in it, at some point somebody pulled the original bullet out and substituted a modern 500 grain bullet. No, I ain't gonna mess with it any further, I'm just going to let well enough alone. The correct bullet would have looked somewhat more like the 405 grain bullet in my reload on the right. You can clearly see the crimp that holds the internal anvil plate in place. If I wuz to turn the cartridge over so you could see the bottom, it looks like a great big rimfire cartridge because there is no external evidence of the primer. Just a flat bottom like a rimfire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Threads like this are why I really enjoy The SASS Wire!

Milo, me too! Great knowledge transfer when the good 'stuff' is posted

It's a darn shame there aren't more like this instead of the voluminous usual: How To's - You Make the Call - Where Can I Buy - Who Makes and the Infamous ... OT's!

What's really is missing on the Wire are Type Libraries to store the good stuff! Libraries cut down on bandwidth asking the same question multiple times and folks repeating the same answers multiple times

 

Over on The Open Range, there are many Sticky's and Libraries. In the Black Powder Reference Library, the 20 Threads have been viewed ... 88,614 times! And Delmonico's thread, Historical Photo round up, (a Pinned topic) has been viewed ... 45,458 times!

That's 134,072 views for just 21 threads

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.