Bender B. Rodriguez Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Howdy, Like many of you, I fire more than six thousand rounds per year from my Cowboy guns. I have been reloading for nearly forty years without a failure of any round to go "boom". In the last two years I have experienced a very infrequent (less than 1 in 800) "wimp" load. These clear the barrel no problem, but sound different enough that I always stop and check the bore to make sure that nothing got stuck in there. Generally the round hits the target very low, or misses entirely. In checking my reloading notes, I have discovered that this has only happenned when using Trailboss in my .45 and .44-40 loads. It occurs somewhat more in my pistols than in my rifles, but I do shoot my pistols more in practice, so it evens out. Besides Trailboss, I also use Unique and Titegroup -- but neither of these has displayed this alarming tendency -- not even once. I would like to collect any information that you pards might have regarding this phenomenon. Please let me know your experiences. Bender B. Rodriguez bender@katygunsmithing.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Sounds like you're loading at the bottom end of the velocity/pressure curve. Even TB isn't magic. Ya still gotta have enough to make it go "pop" instead of "pfft". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Howdy, Like many of you, I fire more than six thousand rounds per year from my Cowboy guns. I have been reloading for nearly forty years without a failure of any round to go "boom". In the last two years I have experienced a very infrequent (less than 1 in 800) "wimp" load. These clear the barrel no problem, but sound different enough that I always stop and check the bore to make sure that nothing got stuck in there. Generally the round hits the target very low, or misses entirely. In checking my reloading notes, I have discovered that this has only happenned when using Trailboss in my .45 and .44-40 loads. It occurs somewhat more in my pistols than in my rifles, but I do shoot my pistols more in practice, so it evens out. Besides Trailboss, I also use Unique and Titegroup -- but neither of these has displayed this alarming tendency -- not even once. I would like to collect any information that you pards might have regarding this phenomenon. Please let me know your experiences. Bender B. Rodriguez bender@katygunsmithing.com Need more info. What kind of loader? progressive or single stage? Towards the bottom or top of the loading manual recommendation? lots or little crimp? bullet weight? those who really know (and there are many) will probably chime in and ask regards Gateway Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I have only been loading a little while.I use Trail Boss, I use 4gr in my 38s.I do know that if you let the powder holder get low or dont keep the Viberator on it will drop a light load.I am so new at this I look in each case.I have a Dillon 550 . Like I said I am new at this.before I put the Vib. on the powder holder it would drop a light load.Dont think it would be a squib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender B. Rodriguez Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Need more info. What kind of loader? progressive or single stage? Towards the bottom or top of the loading manual recommendation? lots or little crimp? bullet weight? those who really know (and there are many) will probably chime in and ask regards Gateway Kid I always use Starline brass which has been trimmed for length, deburred, and with the flash hole reamed (first time only). I use an RCBS single-stage press (I am not in a hurry). Lee genereic decapping die. Cases are tumbled with walnut media for 2 - 3 hours. Primer pockets are cleaned with an RCBS primer pocket brush. Lee case lubricant sparingly applied. RCBS full length sizing die. Cases are wiped off and allowed to sit overnight to remove any residual moisture. Case necks are expanded with an RCBS die. Winchester Large Pistol Primers installed with an RCBS hand priming tool. 6.3 gr. Trailboss is dropped from an RCBS adjustable measure, every 10th charge weighed for accuracy and safety. Bullets are hard cast lead RNFP 200 gr., seated with an RCBS die (no roll crimp). A Lee factory crimp die puts a fairly heavy crimp on the cartridges. The only variable in my procedure is to use a different weight with a different powder. I tend to use loads that are 3/4 of the maximum range -- for example, if the specified range is 5.5 gr. - 6.5 gr. I will use 6.3 or so. Bender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbercrick Mick Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I always use Starline brass which has been trimmed for length, deburred, and with the flash hole reamed (first time only). I use an RCBS single-stage press (I am not in a hurry). Lee genereic decapping die. Cases are tumbled with walnut media for 2 - 3 hours. Primer pockets are cleaned with an RCBS primer pocket brush. Lee case lubricant sparingly applied. RCBS full length sizing die. Cases are wiped off and allowed to sit overnight to remove any residual moisture. Case necks are expanded with an RCBS die. Winchester Large Pistol Primers installed with an RCBS hand priming tool. 6.3 gr. Trailboss is dropped from an RCBS adjustable measure, every 10th charge weighed for accuracy and safety. Bullets are hard cast lead RNFP 200 gr., seated with an RCBS die (no roll crimp). A Lee factory crimp die puts a fairly heavy crimp on the cartridges. The only variable in my procedure is to use a different weight with a different powder. I tend to use loads that are 3/4 of the maximum range -- for example, if the specified range is 5.5 gr. - 6.5 gr. I will use 6.3 or so. Bender I have been using Trailboss loading both 38SP and 45C using a Dillon 550 for 3 years now. I often hear folks having to hook "aquarium vibrator" to the power funnel to get consistent loads to meter. I have never had that problem. My loads are always within .1 grains. Have not had problems with "wimp" loads I load to the medium to lower end of Hodgon load data. When I first started loading with a progressive I used a Lee 1000, with that I had many problems and squibs. No problems after going "Blue". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 How old are the Primers ??? And have been stored correctly ??? Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Plasters, SASS#60943 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I made up some practice loads using powders I don't normally use - mostly BP subs. But one I included was Titegroup at the mid powder weight setting. All loads were individually weighed. Out of the 10 rounds with Titegroup I had one squib - sounded way different and hit the dirt about 3/4's of the way to the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I always use Starline brass which has been trimmed for length, deburred, and with the flash hole reamed (first time only). Primer pockets are cleaned with an RCBS primer pocket brush. The only variable in my procedure is to use a different weight with a different powder. I tend to use loads that are 3/4 of the maximum range -- for example, if the specified range is 5.5 gr. - 6.5 gr. I will use 6.3 or so. I don't know anything about your powder measure, but the first thing I'd do is make sure it's clean and operating properly. Trail Boss is a very bulky powder that meters a bit differently than other brands and some have reported inconsistent powder drops tending toward the light side. I use TB for my .45 cal smokeless loads and I've never experienced what you're describing unless loading near the bottom range (which I don't do anymore). When you measure every 10th round, are you having to make a number of adjustments over the course of your loading session to get the desired charge? Regardless, I'd suggest calling the makers of your powder measure (RCBS?) to see if they have any suggestions. I have to add that IMHO, you don't need to do all that case prep. CAS isn't bench rest rifle shooting and case trimming & flash hole reaming just aren't necessary for our game. It especially isn't necessary if the brass is new, and I don't know anyone who does it with older brass. There's a recent thread on the Wire about primer pocket cleaning and again, it just isn't necessary unless your having a problem seating primers. Many shooters have gone many years without ever cleaning a primer pocket. YMMV and good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 TB is temp sensitive!! Found that out the hard way! Bump the load up .3 grains, that'll take care of it. That's why I have warm weather and cold weather ammo made up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE CALHOUN COUNTY BA Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 U need to get a Lee auto disk powder measure and your troubles will be over ....... I have 6 of them and use a Dillon 550, makes changing to another cal. a breeze. CCBA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 TB is temp sensitive!! Found that out the hard way! Bump the load up .3 grains, that'll take care of it. That's why I have warm weather and cold weather ammo made up. That hasn't been my experience. Outside shooting temps here range from just below freezing to high 90s. Outside of that, you won't find me outdoors with cowboy guns. Capt. Baylor who is pretty deliberate and methodical about ammo testing, had this to say on the topic: "June 22 -- Chrono Session Disasters" in 2010 EOT blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 That hasn't been my experience. Outside shooting temps here range from just below freezing to high 90s. Outside of that, you won't find me outdoors with cowboy guns. Capt. Baylor who is pretty deliberate and methodical about ammo testing, had this to say on the topic: "June 22 -- Chrono Session Disasters" in 2010 EOT blog Yea, Well, He is using MY Load since that was written! We both compare load info. He uses My Winter Load all the time. I am considered a "gamer" so I load down as much as possible. Trust me the Printed Min. load for TB will be "Iffy" when it's Cold!! The Capt. also used My Leather! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Yea, Well, He is using MY Load since that was written! We both compare load info. He uses My Winter Load all the time. I am considered a "gamer" so I load down as much as possible. Trust me the Printed Min. load for TB will be "Iffy" when it's Cold!! The Capt. also used My Leather! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I agree with Jack Houston. Also I have found that the bottle neck cartridges (38-40) can be loaded toward the minimum side, but the straight walled cartridges (44 spl, 45 LC) need to be loaded in the middle range for complete burn. BTW, this is among the reasons that I switched to Promo (Red Dot clone) powder. Better and more consistent burn at 1/2 the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 The load tables published by the powder manufacturers don't take into account the temperature found OUTSIDE the lab-oro-tory? One of the things powder needs to burn efficiently is pressure (kinda like fire. Ya gots to have heat, fuel and oxygen. Take one away = no fire. And no, I ain't no fireman) If the crimp isn't firm or you're using right on that there minimum or when you go outside the powder's "comfort zone" sometimes it don't like to work so well. (kinda like Dubious; he gits a bit too hot or too cold or too wet and HE don't work too well either!) Thanks for the link to Capt. George's page on chrono disasters which is apropriate because there was a "few" competitors at WR that didn't make PF either! I happened to run a 45ACP load that's a bit closer to the minimum because my pistol shoots really nice (notice I didn't say "I" shoot it nice, only that my PISTOL likes it.) BUT, I happen to shoot on that same range and did EXTENSIVE testing with the conditions I expected to find during the match. I wasn't surprised when my load made PF. (I didn't really expect it to be 30 but you never know, that's about as cold my lunchbox ice packs would get my ammo) Temperature and altitude/barometric pressure WILL make a difference in your loads! (usually you don't hafta worry about the latter cuz nobody's stupid enough to go shooting in a hurricane or typhoon) So if yer a flatlander and you're going to a match waaaaayyy high up in them there mountains, better plan for that! Way back when I had me a brace of 44-40's. I tried a bunch of loads. Did some testing because at the time I worked full time on a range. Titegroup and Clays, WW 231, Bullseye all proved to be temperature/position sensitive to one degree or another but Clays and Tightgroup was the WORST of the bunch! Tested loads at 40f, 70f and 100f Got variations upwards of 150 fps. Positioned with powder to the front, back and forward, again got 150fps variation! I shot one mimimum load with Clays, powder positioned forward, (lowest velocity) and as cold as I could get it which was the freezer we kept ice in. The first and ONLY round I fired went phhhhttt and barely made it to the target before it dropped to the ground all tuckered out like a cartoon bullet. Use a minimum load when it's cold and I'd expect a "POOF" or two! (I wasn't surprised when the readout on my chrono said HUH!?!) Now Trailboss, I didn't see NONE of that. No position sensitivity, no temperature sensitivity, no wierd stuff AT ALL maybe because with the loads in the calibers I use there ain't no chance of the powder doing that. I use a middle of the chart load and I've even shot it in 30-06, 7.5 nagant, 32-20 (but it weren't out of a 32-20) Never had a light load out of the Dillon, never had a phhht never had nothing but glowing success with Trailboss. (now watch me have MORE than one this weekend when I shoot) Interesting to note, with Trailboss it generally takes more than .3gr to get a noticible velocity difference. I loaded up one batch, a mix of rounds with a .3gr variation in powder charge. Then I loaded up a batch where the charge was weighed to the button. (exactly) Shot both batches over the chrony and couldn't tell the difference between the two! Exactly what I would expect because TB is a bulky fluffy powder and it's intended use is small charges in big cases that still take up a good bit of space and perform more consistently than what's out there. Yea, Well, He is using MY Load since that was written! We both compare load info. He uses My Winter Load all the time. I am considered a "gamer" so I load down as much as possible. Trust me the Printed Min. load for TB will be "Iffy" when it's Cold!! The Capt. also used My Leather! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foard County News, SASS #77236 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I've shot about 10K rounds of TB in 45C (200g) and 38SPEC (125g) and never had any problems with it. What I will say is if you are using a Lee Autodisk you can have problems getting the proper powder drop. I wipe the interior with a dryer sheet and develop a routine od tapping the powder reservoir and never had any problems. TB is easy to check for proper powder drop: the case is either empty or at the brim. Anything between the two is the proper amount of powder. I love this fluffy powder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Well Dubious Don my experience with Trail Boss in .44-40 is just the opposite of yours. I was loading the minimum for .44-40, 200 grain bullets since I shoot it duelist style out of my pistols. If the temps drop below 45° I was having issues of incomplete burn of the powder, primers backing out, jammed revolver cylinders, etc. This issue has happened 3-4 times. I went to putting my loading strip inside my vest, with the pistol bullets against my body to keep them warm. I have now switched over to using Clays and it doesn't seem as sensitive to temps at this point. I did up the minimum for .44-40, 200 grs. by a 2-3 tenths. I had been using TB for the last 5+ years. TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Well Dubious Don my experience with Trail Boss in .44-40 is just the opposite of yours. I was loading the minimum for .44-40, 200 grain bullets since I shoot it duelist style out of my pistols. If the temps drop below 45° I was having issues of incomplete burn of the powder, primers backing out, jammed revolver cylinders, etc. This issue has happened 3-4 times. I went to putting my loading strip inside my vest, with the pistol bullets against my body to keep them warm. I have now switched over to using Clays and it doesn't seem as sensitive to temps at this point. I did up the minimum for .44-40, 200 grs. by a 2-3 tenths. I had been using TB for the last 5+ years. TB A classic too light load. More powder! Another reason to TEST all your loads for the conditions YOU shoot in and pick what works for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Well Dubious Don my experience with Trail Boss in .44-40 is just the opposite of yours. I was loading the minimum for .44-40, 200 grain bullets since I shoot it duelist style out of my pistols. If the temps drop below 45° I was having issues of incomplete burn of the powder, primers backing out, jammed revolver cylinders, etc. This issue has happened 3-4 times. I went to putting my loading strip inside my vest, with the pistol bullets against my body to keep them warm. I have now switched over to using Clays and it doesn't seem as sensitive to temps at this point. I did up the minimum for .44-40, 200 grs. by a 2-3 tenths. A .3 increase with Clays puts you at mid-range according to Hodgdon data. Load TB to mid-range and you'll get similar results. Loading to minimums with a big case like a .44-40 or .45 will produce results like you describe. They'll bite you in the a** more often than not, regardless of powder. Any powder will perform better when you bump up the load from minimums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Thanks guys, that kinda what I figured even though Clays is suppose to be less temperature sensitive than TB. TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Thanks guys, that kinda what I figured even though Clays is suppose to be less temperature sensitive than TB. TB Hey TB, how's life in Prescott since moving there last year? My son lives there and is part of a U.S. Forest Service firefighter unit based at the airport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Howdy, Pards, One thing that jumped out at me is the fact that a ROLL CRIMP WAS NOT BEING USED! With anything but a semi-auto round, especially with lighter loads you MUST get as much resistance to "shot start" as possible! Otherwise the bullet may start moving before the powder comes up to stable burning pressures...about 5,000-7,000 psi! If shot start occurs too early, you will either have the bullet barely get out of the barrel, or WORSE...if the bullet stops in the forcing cone, the pressures could come up to the point where the cartridge case bursts and the top of the gun comes off! My recommendation is to increase the load of TB to the middle of the recommended loads, roll crimp sufficiently to be able to see the curve, but not so much that the side of the case is forced away from the side of the bullet. Also, be SURE the expander plug is at least .001-.0015" SMALLER than the bullet. If the case bulges slightly behind the bullet, creating a "wasp-waist", FINE! Just don't collapse the case. You need good bullet "pull" plus the roll crimp to get good ignition. Ride careful, Pards! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your Pard, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celilo Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 If you use a 5 lb. can of trail Boss you have to mix it up by turning the can around and upside down to mix the powder before you fill your powder measure. This is because it contains a powdered taggent to identify the lot and type of powder. This is required by the BATF. If you dont mix it up when you get to the last powder in the can it will be mostly taggant. It is a finer powder and looks nothing like the donut shaped Trail Boss. I thought it was only dust from broken up TB. I had this problem and had some rounds that went poof instead of bang. Mixing the powder up every time I fill the measure has fixed the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I must add that never had any Poofs in rifle using 160gr bullets. Just with 90gr pistol rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc McGee, SASS #51213 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I've tried a couple different brands of powder with my .45s, too. I've never noticed any problem with position sensitivity or anything approaching a squib load. Except once when I used Titegroup - I apparently missed getting any powder in the cartridge at all. As I said, never any problems...'course I shoot a cartridge full of powder with a 250 grain big lube bullet and a solid roll crimp. Come to think of it mebe this doesn't apply...I shoot either Goex or Schuetzen...never a problem with squibs or light loads!!! Doc McGee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Carson Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Howdy, Pards, One thing that jumped out at me is the fact that a ROLL CRIMP WAS NOT BEING USED! With anything but a semi-auto round, especially with lighter loads you MUST get as much resistance to "shot start" as possible! Otherwise the bullet may start moving before the powder comes up to stable burning pressures...about 5,000-7,000 psi! If shot start occurs too early, you will either have the bullet barely get out of the barrel, or WORSE...if the bullet stops in the forcing cone, the pressures could come up to the point where the cartridge case bursts and the top of the gun comes off! My recommendation is to increase the load of TB to the middle of the recommended loads, roll crimp sufficiently to be able to see the curve, but not so much that the side of the case is forced away from the side of the bullet. Also, be SURE the expander plug is at least .001-.0015" SMALLER than the bullet. If the case bulges slightly behind the bullet, creating a "wasp-waist", FINE! Just don't collapse the case. You need good bullet "pull" plus the roll crimp to get good ignition. Ride careful, Pards! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your Pard, Bender's post says he's using a Lee Factory Crimp die... and while the shape of the crimp isn't really a roll (more of a press crimp, like Dillon dies give), believe it's capable of as tight a crimp and as much resistance as a traditional roll crimp. Also, believe his powder charge weight is just under MAX in IMR's recommended range for .44-40, although don't know where it is in the recommended range for .45 Colt. -Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Deadwood, Life in Prescott is good, lots of places to shoot (geeze every weekend) weather is great, not too cold or too hot, we did get a little snow, great people here. Much more relaxed pace than back east. Why don't you come out for a visit. Regards, TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Howdy TB, I like that town. I'm hoping to get out there this fall when the fire season is over to visit my son. I'll keep you posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Here's my recent cold weather (and other) experiences with some of these pistol powders: Clays - gets weak in the cold Clay Dot - does not get weak in cold weather and duplicates Clays loads Titegroup - a little weak in cold. Very likely to bridge in powder measure if you leave it sit overnight or longer. 700X - does not get weak in cold. WST - does not get weak in cold, but very narrow loading range from min to max (pressure peaks fast) Unique - does not get weak in cold; very versatile Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I had some squib problems with Trailboss in my 38 Special. I know I'm not supposed to list exact loads but they were on the low end of the recommendations for this cartridge. I decided to check my powder measure and discovered it was not adjusted properly and was throwing a load about 2/3 of what I wanted. As soon as I fixed that the squib problem stopped. SCG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Carson Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Here's my recent cold weather (and other) experiences with some of these pistol powders: Clays - gets weak in the cold Clay Dot - does not get weak in cold weather and duplicates Clays loads Titegroup - a little weak in cold. Very likely to bridge in powder measure if you leave it sit overnight or longer. 700X - does not get weak in cold. WST - does not get weak in cold, but very narrow loading range from min to max (pressure peaks fast) Unique - does not get weak in cold; very versatile Good luck, GJ Do you mean Red Dot? That would be my experience with Clays, Red Dot, and Unique, too. Didn't compare Titegroup for weather sensitivity when I was trying it. Haven't tried the other two. -Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Do you mean Red Dot? Nope, I haven't shot Red Dot for years, back in trap loads in the 70s. Liked it very well for that. Understand lots of pards like it now for pistol caliber loads. GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Carson Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Nope, I haven't shot Red Dot for years, back in trap loads in the 70s. Liked it very well for that. Understand lots of pards like it now for pistol caliber loads. GJ Heh... shows that I obviously haven't a clue about Clay Dot -Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Heh... shows that I obviously haven't a clue about Clay Dot This would fill you in some: http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/clay_dot.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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