GF vs Dbl duelist

[El Muerto Negro]

Hey guys after reading the post about Dbl duelist started from Sawbuck.

I started to think about the debate me and my friend Dusty Levis have had .

What is faster GF or Dbl Duelist . I shoot Dbl Duelist(because I dont feel comfortable having both guns out ) and feel GF is faster .

Being there is no category for Dbl Duelist its hard to show any kind of evidence to back me up .

So what do you think GF or Dbl Duelist ?

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

If you can cock your pistols quicker than you can aim, DD is faster. You keep the same sight picture as opposed to swapping between two guns and you can have one hand free to go for long guns thereby making transistions faster.

 

Gunfighter, it's not faster, it's just funner.

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

Given shooters of equal skill, gunfighters are faster than duelist shooters.

[Shooting Bull]

Kind of depends on who's holding the guns.

 

Philly Slim the Double Duelist would beat Philly Slim the Gunfighter.

 

Philly Slim the Double Duelsit would GET beat by Madd Mike or Creeker the Gunfighters.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I think its subjective to the shooter and stage design.

 

If the shooter is on his/her game in transitions and/or if a GFer is terrible with his/her holstering techniques, then the DD would get my vote.

 

If both pistols are fired from the same position and movement is required to another position for Longguns, I would give the nod to the GF.

 

To me, it all depends on the shooter and/or stage design/scenerio.

 

Milage surely varies on this one.....IMHO.

 

 

..........Widder

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Heck this one is easy!! It depends on the shooter

 

"Gunfighter, it's not faster, it's just funner"

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[BJT]

It is an interesting question. Let me help answer.

 

I have never seen anyone win a gunfighter category shooting double duelist. If double duelist was faster, someone would.

 

Still there are trade offs. Transitions to the revolvers and from the revolvers will be slower for the gunfighter. The double duelist would be hard pressed to beat the gunfighter's split between shots five and six. The other revolver splits tend to be faster for the gunfighter.

 

On the third hand, target sequences and distances can make a difference. You can be more accurate shooting duelist with the off hand anchored than shooting gunfighter with both guns held in the air. Also, alternating for 10 shots on two targets would be much faster for the gunfighter than the duelist.

 

In most CAS matches, the gunfighter has the edge. There are some boys out Texas way that could and have whipped some very fast gunfighters but overall, I would give the edge to the gunfighter.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

[Manatee]

Since there isn't a senior gunfighter category at all matches, a senior double duelist doesn't have to worry about young whippersnappers shootin gunfighter.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Let us know

 

GG ~

 

 

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

Who really cares about "faster" when there's gFUNfighterin' to be doin' .....

[Widder, SASS #59054]

The day I can understand why the nurse makes you get up and walk around only ONE DAY after heart surgery and then 3 days later, they make you sit in a wheel chair while taking you to your car, will be the day I learn the answer to this inquiring subject.

 

 

..........Widder

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

At EOT last June, their were 5 gunfighters in the top 50 shooters and only 2 duelists. The top duelist beat the top gunfighter. The top duelist shoots double duelist. I don't know about the other.

 

Possum

[Noz]

That would be fun. Lassiter in gunfighter and Nuttin Graceful in DD.

 

Any bets?

[Utah Bob #35998]

Yes.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

A reprise from September 2010:

 

After having spent some time observing some fine duelists and double duelists who can shift the paradigm about what speed is possible shooting this style…and after having shot both styles a bit myself, I've figured out a new shooting style that combines all the "advantages" of shooting gunfighter with the "advantages" of shooting duelist and double-duelist style.

 

Now, for those of you who are unfamiliar with these "advantages," let me lay them out for you. Well, what I really want to start with is the "disadvantages" of shooting gunfighter…which is what I shoot, by the way. You see, the biggest problem as I see it (Note: everything written here is "as I see it") is that you have to change your sight picture on every pistol shot.

 

I figured out long ago that while most people think the hard part of shooting gunfighter is cocking the pistols, the hard part is actually re-acquiring your sights after each shot. Personally, I can cock much faster than I can aim. Widder, can I get an AMEN here?

 

Disadvantage number two is shared by gunfighters and duelists: You are supporting and moving the gun with only one hand and arm. Disadvantage number two and a half: You're cocking with just one hand. Disadvantage number three: If the pistols are shot first or second, you end up with both hands full and have to take the time to holster before you can begin moving a hand toward a long gun.

 

Now for the finally-revealed-secret-advantages of shooting gunfighter: Numero uno - if the pistols are shot last, you don't have the holstering time on the clock. There. That's it. Wait! Nope. Advantage-jo numero lasto. More fun than a barrel of monkeys…which I've always thought was a strange saying because I can't imagine a barrel of monkeys being anything but annoying and likely painful…but anyway, it's a lot of fun. Habla espanol? Me neither. The fact that it is a lot of fun is worth mentioning again. It's a lot a fun.

 

Now, for the closely guarded secrets of the duelist and double-duelist: First, the ultimate duelist secret - when they beat you, they laugh at you. As for the other advantage, they share it with the two-handed shooters: same sights for five shots and they can sometimes begin moving one hand toward or onto a long gun while finishing the second gun. It is but a small token for what they lose otherwise.

 

The double-duelist has one advantage that is unique to other styles in that they can have their hand on their second gun, ready to whip it out, while shooting their first gun. Once they have shot the first gun, they can whip out the second one and begin mowin' 'em down while holstering the first gun and with the first gun hand they can grab a long gun, pick it up and be ready to mow the neighbor's yard with it the moment the second pistol is finished.

Now, before you get to thinking that you're gonna rush right out and start shooting double-duelist, you should know that the ability to do the above described is no small feat. In fact, it requires much (dare I say it?) practice to become proficient at doing so.

 

There are a few amongst us who have honed their skills as gunfighters and double-duelists to the point that they have left us no choice but to pay attention to the fact that they have taken shooting styles that are typically viewed as difficult, perhaps even handicapped, and threatened to win it all…or at least scare more than a few at the top.

 

Now in an effort to combine all of the advantages of the gunfighter with the double-duelist and move some highly skilled shooters (not me) even closer to the top and perhaps even THE top, I am introducing a new shooting style (not a new category) called Goofy Ass Gunfighter. I know you're just on the edge of your seat wondering what the #$%? I'm smoking, but those of you who know me know that I'm not smoking anything; I'm just a goofy ass gunfighter.

 

Here it is: when it comes time to shoot pistols, jerk 'em both out and point 'em in the general direction of the targets. Shoot the first pistol five times like you were the biggest, baddest, double-duelist that ever hit the streets of Laredo. Don't alternate the pistols! As soon as you finish that pistol, begin shootin' the second pistol (that's already out and pointing) while you holster the first. Then…while you shoot your second one, grab up a long gun and be ready to plow 'em down showing them how a double-duelist, I mean a Goofy Ass Gunfighter, kicks their behind.

 

WARNING: When you pull out both pistols and point them at the target but only shoot one at a time, people are gonna think you're a goofy ass because they're gonna assume you registered as a duelist. They're going to be ready to nail your goofy ass for drawing out of category. Yep, there's apparently a rule against that…but the joke will be on them 'cause you're not really a goofy ass, you're not drawing out of category, you're not even shooting out of category, you're just a Goofy Ass Gunfighter. You ain't gonna look much like a cowboy, but you'll be following the rules to the letter of the law.

 

DISCLAIMER: All GAG Fighters should display a "NO WHINING" decal on their gun cart.

 

And for anyone who wonders: I'm just goofing off and I don't think the world will end if the rules remain the same and are interpreted literally…but I just couldn't resist letting my mind wander and to come up with a "what if." The intent is to make people smile. If you're not smiling, it simply means that you don't know me. I'm smiling and I hope you are, too!

[Anvil Al #59168]

That would be fun. Lassiter in gunfighter and Nuttin Graceful in DD.

 

Any bets?

 

 

I will lay money on Nuttin.

Who has been in the top 10 overall at EOT more than once.

How many GFer can say that???? There may be some. I don't know.

Can not think of a GFer that can beat Nuttin or T-Bone. That is when

they really want to shoot.

And where they will get you is in transitions.

 

But you GFer might want to look out.

Nuttin has shot GFer at the last two monthlys at the Bar 3.

And looks pretty darn good.

 

Even though I have been shooting Duelist the last few years.

GFer is still more fun. And I did have to go GFer on a stage this

past weekend. It was FUN.

[BJT]

When Nuttin shoots in Gunfighter, does he shoot double duelist? He is a pretty competitive cowboy. Hard to imagine him taking the slower of two choices

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

I will lay money on Nuttin.

Who has been in the top 10 overall at EOT more than once.

How many GFer can say that???? There may be some. I don't know.

Can not think of a GFer that can beat Nuttin or T-Bone. That is when

they really want to shoot.

And where they will get you is in transitions.

 

But you GFer might want to look out.

Nuttin has shot GFer at the last two monthlys at the Bar 3.

And looks pretty darn good.

 

Even though I have been shooting Duelist the last few years.

GFer is still more fun. And I did have to go GFer on a stage this

past weekend. It was FUN.

[Anvil Al #59168]

When Nuttin shoots in Gunfighter, does he shoot double duelist? He is a pretty competitive cowboy. Hard to imagine him taking the slower of two choices

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

 

No. He shot it regular GFer style.

But really think he was just messing around. Opening up Duelist for some of us

others to have a chance at a win.

I know he has before shot in an aged base category at a big annual before. To open

up a spot in Duelist. He won the aged category and the overall.

 

Now when he was shooting GFer. He was working of some things in it.

Like getting rid of the GFer shoulder roll. That roll of pulling both at the same time,

and holstering both at the same time.

Example. Rifle, Pistol, SG. He would shoot rifle. And while it was going down with the

left hand his right pistol was up and shooting. By the time he had a few shots off with the

right hand, the left pistol was up and running shooting reg GFer. Then when right pistol was dry

and he was finishing up with the left hand. The right pistol was being holstered and right hand

going for SG.

While most GFers will put rifle down and pull both pistols at the same time and then holster at the

same time.

He was still thinking about getting into transitions and still be GFer. At least for the middle part of

the pistol run. Kind of GFer but still keeping the DD transitions.

But again. Think he was just messing around and letting some of us others have a chance at a win.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

Depends on WHO's shootin!!!

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

Gunfighter is faster, no question about it. If a stage comes up where double duelist may be faster, a Gunfighter can shoot it double duelist. There aren't any circumstances where a double duelist can switch to Gunfighter.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

No. He shot it regular GFer style.

But really think he was just messing around. Opening up Duelist for some of us

others to have a chance at a win.

I know he has before shot in an aged base category at a big annual before. To open

up a spot in Duelist. He won the aged category and the overall.

 

Now when he was shooting GFer. He was working of some things in it.

Like getting rid of the GFer shoulder roll. That roll of pulling both at the same time,

and holstering both at the same time.

Example. Rifle, Pistol, SG. He would shoot rifle. And while it was going down with the

left hand his right pistol was up and shooting. By the time he had a few shots off with the

right hand, the left pistol was up and running shooting reg GFer. Then when right pistol was dry

and he was finishing up with the left hand. The right pistol was being holstered and right hand

going for SG.

While most GFers will put rifle down and pull both pistols at the same time and then holster at the

same time.

He was still thinking about getting into transitions and still be GFer. At least for the middle part of

the pistol run. Kind of GFer but still keeping the DD transitions.

But again. Think he was just messing around and letting some of us others have a chance at a win.

 

He appears to be shooting a version of GAG using DD when it made sense. Even "changing leads" is essentially shooting DD. He is definately thinking outside the box...but then he always does.

 

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Gunfighter is faster, no question about it. If a stage comes up where double duelist may be faster, a Gunfighter can shoot it double duelist. There aren't any circumstances where a double duelist can switch to Gunfighter.

 

Here is a statment I can agree with. Most gunfighters can't shoot DD faster than they can shoot GF and even they could, most will stick with the alternating guns because it's just a rush to do it. If it was all about the time, there would be two hands on the pistols.

 

I think the twist that Nuttin' is putting on GF is way cool. This whole thing has gotten me to thinking about the GAG style a little more seriously....but dang if I don't like having two out and alternating.

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

For me, my fastest times come in this order, Gunfighter, Duelist, Double Duelist.

[Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER]

Doc Shapiro describes a technique similar to this on his website. It is the ultimate in both hands are busy at all times. For ease of typing lets say the 9th round in the string is from the right pistol and the last or 10th round is from the left pistol.

 

As soon as the 9th round is fired the right pistol goes to leather while the 10th round is being fired. As the left pistol is going to leather the right hand is reaching for the next long gun. Theoretically this gives the GF duelist like transitions.

 

Nuttin' is putting more stagger into the string by firing the first 2 shots of the string with his right (lead) pistol and the last 2 shots of the string from his left (trail) pistol. I think he also throws a couple of lead changes in there too.

 

Every time I have tried this method I either miss the last (10th) shot or botch the reholster of the lead pistol, causing me to reholster both pistols together as normal. Obviously the left and right sides of my brain don't like to work independently.

 

Hope this makes sense,

 

Smokes

[Tn Tombstone]

Buck, what the heck is a site picture????

 

For me Gunfighter is faster if you remove the misses

[BJT]

Notice how much slower the last two revolver shots are than the previous 6? Nuttin may be on to something but moving the off hand while shooting is a perfect way to miss. It will be interesting to see how his gunfighting evolves.

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

For what it's worth Cheyenne Culpepper shoots the same way (getting off two shots with the first pistol before engaging with the second) and turns in some really good times!

 

For me though, I agree with BJT, it's a good way to miss!!

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Notice how much slower the last two revolver shots are than the previous 6? Nuttin may be on to something but moving the off hand while shooting is a perfect way to miss. It will be interesting to see how his gunfighting evolves.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Having shot the same targets before, I can tell you that I can pop those left, right alternating targets up the left side faster than the the stack on the right. Verticle targets are tougher, for me at least.

 

Perhaps a shooter as talented as Nuttin' can actually shoot gunfighter faster. I suspect because he does not fit the norm in the sense that he actually can aquire sights and targets quicker than he can cock...which is pretty dang fast even as a DD.

 

Here's a couple of videos from Lead Dispenser's World Record page that would support a gunfighter being faster than a DD. Interestingly enough, the same fellow is the current record holder in both gunfighter AND Duelist. As a gunfighter he kicks the dickens out of his duelist time. It would surprise me to find out that gunfighting is not his "normal" category and is practiced more.

 

Woodbury Kane - Duelist

 

Woodbury Kane - Gunfighter

[Anvil Al #59168]

Notice how much slower the last two revolver shots are than the previous 6? Nuttin may be on to something but moving the off hand while shooting is a perfect way to miss. It will be interesting to see how his gunfighting evolves.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

This was the first stage and his first attempt at it.

IF, big IF. He keeps at it. Bet that will improve.

But still. How many of us would love a 19sec stage, with 30 foot of movement on it.

And again. This was his first stage to try it.

But really. Don't think he going GFer.

He was just messing around trying something different.

 

 

 

 

For what it's worth Cheyenne Culpepper shoots the same way (getting off two shots with the first pistol before engaging with the second) and turns in some really good times!

 

For me though, I agree with BJT, it's a good way to miss!!

 

 

Ya. I timed him on a stage at Comin At'Cha where he did that.

And he did SMOKE that stage.

He is the only other GFer that I have seen do it.

And he did not slow down any either.

But the pistols was last on the stage, so he was not having to go

after another gun.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Hmmm...

[El Muerto Negro]

It's safe to say that the split between shots is faster in GF . Approximately 40% of stages end with

the pistol So transitioning never comes into play . If there is movement between the pistols and the

long guns Having a free hand to pick up the next gun won't matter . Making GF faster .

 

El Muerto Negro

[BJT]

Transitioning does not come into play? No stage begins and ends with the revolvers (unless they are split which is worse) so at least 50% of stages have a transition come into play, some have two tansitions (rifle, revolver, shotgun is not uncommon. Have you ever moved laterally (the most common movement) gunfighter? You have to move sideways. There is a technique to moving facing the firing line while holstering double duelist. So even movement between guns is harder for the gunfighter. While shot to shot times are faster, target size and distance can become a gunfighter liability.

 

Current stages with close big revolver targets, favor the gunfighter but it is not a slam dunk.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

It's safe to say that the split between shots is faster in GF . Approximately 40% of stages end with

the pistol So transitioning never comes into play . If there is movement between the pistols and the

long guns Having a free hand to pick up the next gun won't matter . Making GF faster .

 

El Muerto Negro

[El Muerto Negro]

When a stage ends with both pistols there is no transition after the pistol . All transitions before the pistols are the same no matter what catagory you shoot in

with there own unique techniques and if the pistols are split the GF has the option to shot Dbl Duelist .

El Muerto Negro

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

All transitions before the pistols are the same no matter what catagory you shoot in

.

El Muerto Negro

 

 

Not true. If a long gun goes down where the pistols are shot, the DD can pull the first pistol with one hand while placing the long gun down. As has already been pointed out, If a gunfighter chooses to pull the first pistol and go to work while the second is being pulled, he risks disturbance of the sight picture and in turn missing. Now, can it be done? Yes...by aliens. I know a few aliens...and Nuttin' is one of them. He won't ask you to take him to your leader, but he is an alien.

 

Thinking of switching to gunfighter? I recommend it highly.

[Badlands Bud #15821]

It depends greatly on the stage design. I would say that on a typical stage, it is possible to shoot either one about as fast as the other. The double duelist will have an extreme advantage on all transitions involving a pistol/pistols. However, gunfighter will typically have faster shot-shot splits while firing the pistols. The transition difference goes away if there is movement before and after firing the pistols, allowing the gunfighter to holster while moving. However, if it is a stand and deliver stage, the double duelist's advantage for transitions will be great.

 

The differences in accuracy will not be too great as both styles shoot with one hand on each gun. I would think that duelist would have the edge on accuracy though, as duelists can anchor their non-shooting hand somewhere, which adds stability to the shooting platform.

 

It will mostly depend on how proficient the shooter is with each style. The shooter who has achieved greater mastery in each style will probably have the edge.

 

Badlands Bud